Police Shoot and Kill Homeless Man

stunmer wrote: »

It's happened again.

Yup, people rushing to judgements and hysterical hyperbole with absolutely no idea of what happened. I'd have hoped the whole Ferguson case might have encouraged people to learn to wait and see what the evidence is, but I guess not.

No gun expert - but hitting an arm or a leg is next to impossible and a damn stupid trick to attempt.

Borrow a gas operated airsoft pistol sometime and try to hit your mate in the leg when he's flailing, kicking, rolling around. Hell, try to hit a stationary target from a few meters away at a quick draw. You simply wont.

A bullet could easily ricochet off a pavement, parked car or other object and end up god knows where. A 9mm is designed to hit your torso and (mostly) stay in there. It's standard law enforcement issue for a reason.

Not to mention that getting shot in the leg might not do much to a fully grown male with adrenaline pumping.

When a gun is drawn it shouldn't be used in the same capacity as a tazer or pepper spray. It should be used to kill. If the person survives then great but if you find yourself being shot by a cop you can expect to keep getting shot until you're motionless on the floor.

I'm very conflicted about this issue. On the one hand, we have a lot of videos surfacing (no doubt due to the rise of social media) of cops killing people. What's rarely, if ever shown, is how these cops feel having pulled the trigger.



This cop shot a man in the back seat of a suspicious vehicle. The dude kept reaching for his waistband and ignored repeated orders to stop. (full video)

A minute or two after the shooting the cop is weak at the knees, feeling sicks and eventually is in a heap on the hood of his patrol car crying. Not exactly the "white, trigger happy" stereotype, but if that part of the footage hadn't surfaced we'd think he was a KKK cop who loved to kill. It was a justified kill but one he's going to have to live with all because some a55hole wouldn't be courteous to an officer and put his hands on his lap.

There are an insane amount of stolen and unregistered firearms in LA. It's one of the most dangerous cities for random shootings. Multiple officers are killed while doing normal, everyday police duties like writing speeding tickets or responding to domestic disputes. All it takes is one idiot out of his mind on PCP to pull a ****ty, stolen revolver out of nowhere. And that's before we even think about the gangs.

If I lived in such an area, any interaction I had with a cop I'd make sure my hands were visible and I didn't do anything to put him or her on edge. Most people in America know how to act when they're pulled over - turn on overhead light, window down, hands on the wheel until you've spoken to the cop. Do that and everyone's happy. It's not an erosion of your constitutional right - it's a courtesy to someone doing an incredibly dangerous job.

It's no different in Ireland. If you find yourself doing something suspicious (even if you have a perfectly reasonable explanation), and a garda stops you, you should have enough common sense to know that

a) all you have to do is relax and explain
b) don't go rapidly reaching into your pocket or otherwise get aggressive

On the flip side, US cops need to improve their customer service and stop approaching every situation in a super-macho, aggressive way. A lot are ex-marines which is a questionable pool to draw recruits from considering the training US marines have.

Irish Example

Comparing the US to Ireland can be like comparing apples to oranges. However, I think race often place too much a part in online discussion. What should be discussed is the actions, character and behavior of the persons involved.

Yes - the people involved in these incidents are most often black. It's a symptom of racism and poverty that America has yet to deal with.

However, specifically, the people getting arrested/shot tend also to be criminals, violent or suspicious in their actions. I haven't heard of a cop entering a normal, black family's home and killing them as they sat around the dinner table saying grace.

An equal comparison might be skangers/junkies here in Dublin. Anyone around town recently will have noticed Operation Spire in full swing. There are guards all over the place. I work right near O' Connell bridge and over the past month I've seen guards walk right up to groups of lads and start searching, questioning and telling them to fcuk off.

If they're dealing with teenage góuriers or just fairly 'okay people' they're normally at ease and often just having a chat. But when they're dealing with Johnny Mountjoy they have him with his arms spread out, normally one grabbing onto his clothes for an easy takedown while another searches. Either that or it's cuffs on, then search.

Cops have dozens, if not a hundred searches or interactions with scumbags every weeks. All it takes is ONE to go wrong and you're in hospital, scarred for life or dead.

If I was a guard I'd be making sure every skanger I spoke to didn't have a knife. If I was a US cop dealing with homeless or patrolling a crime ridden area, I'd make sure every person I dealt with wasn't on his way to rob a liquor store with a gun when I stopped him. All it takes is one stop to go wrong.

To fix this:

1. Cops need to wear body cams
2. Macho culture needs to be eradicated (no ex-military for a starters)
3. General public need to stop assuming racism in every case a cop shoots a black person. Cops might kill more black people, but black people also kill more cops. There's a cause effect going on here...
4. General public need to be educated on how to deal with police (should be taught in schools BY cops themselves). Hands visible. Follow reasonable orders. If you're arrested, just go. Wrongful arrest can be prosecuted and most people who claim to be wrongly arrested are incorrect. If pulled over, light on, engine off, hands on the wheel and a "hello officer", to be responded with "hello sir/mam" by the cop.
5. If a cop is pointing a gun at you - just stop. BUT, if it can be found that the cop had no good reason to draw down on you, then you can prosecute for assault, which is is.

Not arsed removing typos for all that.

/ rant



To finish this off - here's a famous clip of a US cop dealing with a mentally ill man. You can hear the desperation in his voice. He really doesn't want to open fire on a man who actually requests to be shot. And because he didn't shoot he wound up being executed as he lay dying in hos patrol car, trying to find some form of cover. That video is shown to US cops in training for what known as a "command circle" and how dangerous repeatedly ignored orders can be.

If those screams don't make your stomach sink then you need your head examined.

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

I am not gonna watch that video. Those "police" deserve the death sentence.

And the Supreme Court nomination goes to... :rolleyes:

I'll put it this way. I have have been attacked by drug addicts twice in Dublin. Once on my own and other time with groups. I wouldn't have military training but I have some boxing training. I managed to get out of difficulty with relative ease. I didn't have to kill him you may have guessed.

Take the guards in Ireland who regularly deal with people resisting arrest. Some of these have guns and there have been incidents where unarmed guards chased armed criminals.

Here we have several well trained police being attacked by one man and they shoot him several times. They felt they had to kill him. They couldn't have handled it without shooting a clearly disturbed man. They're trigger happy cowards and that's there is to it.

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

He really did not want to shoot him. He ordered him multiple times to put his hand away from his waist band and fired only after repeated warnings.

The car was suspicious and the occupants were known to cops. He very clearly is torn up over it - particularly the fact that the man was unarmed in the end. However it was a justified kill.

He isn't a coward. Not by any definition of the word. He had no ego or macho crap going on. He pulled over a suspicious vehicle, that's all. The occupant got himself shot.

If you were a cop and some junkie kept moving his hand towards his waistband, ignoring warnings, are you really going to wait until he produces whatever he might be reaching for in a dark car?

Cops are people too. They have families they want to see again. He made the right choice and it was obviously a difficult one for him to make.