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Police Shoot and Kill Homeless Man

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    Celticfire wrote: »
    What evidence do you have that the gun was a Glock? According to LAPD website there are many different guns carried by officers.

    LAPD standard issue from the academy is the Glock 22, used to be the 17


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    I don't know how that can be seen by anyone as anything other than murder. He stood over him and blasted him to death.
    Trained? To kill, apparently.
    There were more than enough officers there to have controlled that situation better and it should never have gotten to that point.
    Tragic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    Are there any Gardai here that would have insight on what to do wen restraining a hulk mode homeless person?

    It would be hypocritical of me to say I'm outraged. I walk past homeless people everyday but register not even one face and if they were being tackled by police I wouldn't care to much either. I'm not proud of that but I doubt I'm alone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Egginacup wrote: »
    People keep banging on about cops risking their lives every minute of every day. It's bullsh1t. There are higher on-the-job death rates for farm workers, trawlermen, construction workers, than there are for cops. People seem to think everyday for these guys is worse than a Christian going into the damn Coliseum.
    These cops are completely detached from reality and that's how they're trained...to view everyone as their enemy and act with brute force at the slightest provocation or resistance to subjugation.

    Meanwhile in Russia, This would probably be justified I'm guessing. Do RT actually report any actions of the police over there ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    threeball wrote: »
    LAPD standard issue from the academy is the Glock 22, used to be the 17
    New officers graduating from the LAPD academy are now issued the Glock 22 or Glock 17 but can qualify in a variety of firearms. Officers now have the choice of carrying:

    Beretta:
    9mm: S92F, 92FS, 8045 (4" barrel)

    Smith & Wesson:
    9mm: 5906, 3914, 3913, CS9, 6904, 6906, 5906
    .45 ACP: 4506, 4566, 4516, 4567

    Glock:
    9mm: Model 17, Model 19, Model 26
    .40 caliber: Model 22, Model 23, Model 27
    .45 ACP: Model 21, Model 30, Model 36

    Plenty of other gun allowed.
    if it was somehting else like a Smith and Wesson or a Beretta, they all have actual safetys, which makes them even less likely to discharge.

    You'd be willing to bet your life if you were in that situation that the safety was on???? It's a simple safety lever/button that can be moved with ease ....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    Celticfire wrote: »
    Plenty of other gun allowed.



    You'd be willing to bet your life if you were in that situation that the safety was on???? It's a simple safety lever/button that can be moved with ease ....

    Hence the word probably in my initial post. I wouldn't be stupid enough to let someone get hold of my gun in a situation like that, it shows incredible incompetence/stupidity that he allowed that to happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    threeball wrote: »
    Hence the word probably in my initial post. I wouldn't be stupid enough to let someone get hold of my gun in a situation like that, its show incredible incompetence/stupidity that he allowed that to happen.

    Why do Police officers get issued 3 times the length arms to cuff someone at a distance now ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    threeball wrote: »
    Hence the word probably in my initial post. I wouldn't be stupid enough to let someone get hold of my gun in a situation like that, it shows incredible incompetence/stupidity that he allowed that to happen.

    Of course you wouldn't :rolleyes:. But seeing as you're most likely not a Police Officer you'll never get to put your theory to the test.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I know that the educational requirements for entering the police force are low. Is it also a requirement that police be absolute pussies who are afraid of their own shadow? The shoot first ask questions later attitude oft displayed there does more harm to society than good.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    Celticfire wrote: »
    Of course you wouldn't :rolleyes:. But seeing as you're most likely not a Police Officer you'll never get to put your theory to the test.

    Only a simpleton would place his gun within reach of a person they had subdued and arrested especially in a situation where he had this many colleagues as backup.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    Why do Police officers get issued 3 times the length arms to cuff someone at a distance now ?

    There were about 10 of them FFS, plus he was already in cuffs. To have your gun taken off you after that person is in cuffs....??? Lets just say that mensa membership is unlikely for this particular officer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    threeball wrote: »
    Only a simpleton would place his gun within reach of a person they had subdued and arrested especially in a situation where he had this many colleagues as backup.

    I didn't see anyone "subdued" in that clip. You do know what that word means? I saw a man kicking and fighting doing the exact opposite of subdued.

    I'm intrigued as to how an armed cop is supposed to arrest and handcuff a resisting suspect without getting in reach ?


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    I wouldn't trust the morons in the US police forces to hit a donkeys arse with a banjo, there was no need for him to have a gun on him, and if it was on him it should have been securely clipped in his holster which covers the trigger.
    The gun, a glock, also has a safe action trigger so it's not as simply as one finger on the trigger setting the gun off, you need a full grip and a considerable effort to fire the gun.



    :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    Celticfire wrote: »
    I didn't see anyone "subdued" in that clip. You do know what that word means? I saw a man kicking and fighting doing the exact opposite of subdued.

    I'm intrigued as to how an armed cop is supposed to arrest and handcuff a resisting suspect without getting in reach ?

    Kicking and screaming while lying on your front is no danger to anyone unless you're a hot head cop who will keep aggressively trying to force a person to stop moving. Cops in these situations inflame the situation and if you can't figure out how to keep a gun out of a guys hands when hes handcuffed and surrounded by your colleagues I suggest you don't bother applying to LAPD, NYPD or any other PD anytime soon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Celticfire wrote: »
    I didn't see anyone "subdued" in that clip. You do know what that word means? I saw a man kicking and fighting doing the exact opposite of subdued.

    I'm intrigued as to how an armed cop is supposed to arrest and handcuff a resisting suspect without getting in reach ?

    In that situation would you have shot him. Yes or no?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    Celticfire wrote: »
    I didn't see anyone "subdued" in that clip. You do know what that word means? I saw a man kicking and fighting doing the exact opposite of subdued.

    I'm intrigued as to how an armed cop is supposed to arrest and handcuff a resisting suspect without getting in reach ?

    Subdued ?? on your back , cuffed , tazzerd 3 times and 5 burely cops standing over you , I am sure you can reach for the use of the language ? can you not ?


    Wonder how he would act if he was standing , white, armed , and killing cops ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭HiGlo


    caustic 1 wrote: »
    It is very easy to sit and judge here where we can rewind and review a situation that has been videoed, however being involved I'm sure in such a volatile confrontation must be dam scary and I am sure you are on heightened guard at all times so that when things do get out of control you react in a heartbeat. Was it excessive? Perhaps. If you were in fear of your life or that of a friend then perhaps not.

    I understand your point, but I think you are possibly comparing it to you or I in this situation. These are supposed to be highly trained professionals with years of making judgment calls on things. High pressure, volatile situations are a daily occurrence I am sure. Granted, that doesn't mean they aren't scared of them.
    The difference is that I would expect that police encounter training in how to deal with these situations and diffuse them.

    I don't know what happened in this situation and judging by the few mins of the video I watched I would guess the victim perhaps has mental health issues and/or addiction problem (an assumption based on the wild flailing). There has to be better ways of dealing with these situations that don't involve a person ending up dead, be it the police officer or the homeless man....


  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭pollyannawins


    Rory28 wrote: »
    Are there any Gardai here that would have insight on what to do wen restraining a hulk mode homeless person?

    It would be hypocritical of me to say I'm outraged. I walk past homeless people everyday but register not even one face and if they were being tackled by police I wouldn't care to much either. I'm not proud of that but I doubt I'm alone.

    good point, gardai tackle homeless people everyday without shot five times death being the result. reason to admire our own boys in blue.

    for those interested here is an except from an article in 'police' magazine on how the l.a.p.d. changed since Rodney king


    Here are five:
    •Shortly after the riot, Chief Willie Williams was sworn in as the first outside police chief in 45 years. The voters created a new system where the chief could serve only a five-year term, renewable once at the city's option. On two occasions so far, the city has sent the chief packing after five years.
    •"Community policing" has taken hold in ways not seen in the past. The LAPD diversified to the point where Caucasian officers have been in the minority for many years. The city is on the verge of becoming majority Latino, and so is the department.
    •The role of the civilian police commission (which had been the "boss" of the chief of police for many decades) was intensified, and an independent inspector general position was created.
    •Use of force, whether minor or major, receives intense investigative scrutiny and command review. The TASER, pepper spray, and beanbag shotguns are used in greater numbers of incidents. (A less-powerful TASER was used twice in the King incident with limited success.) Baton use is minimal.
    •More than 2,000 additional officers were hired in an effort to achieve a (not yet realized) goal of 10,000.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Why do people keep saying he was cuffed when he was shot? The cuffs are put on him at 1.50 in the video.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    cruais wrote: »
    Mass protests will happen once more.


    And rightly so :confused:

    Why did they have to shoot him so many times? F.uckers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    threeball wrote: »
    There were about 10 of them FFS, plus he was already in cuffs. To have your gun taken off you after that person is in cuffs....??? Lets just say that mensa membership is unlikely for this particular officer.


    I think mensa membership is unlikely for a lot of folk over there, but you know...they have the "right to bear arms". Seems to be the only one they care about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    Why do people keep saying he was cuffed when he was shot? The cuffs are put on him at 1.50 in the video.

    Are you suggesting they cuffed him after they shot him??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭PizzamanIRL


    Why aren't police trained to shoot to disarm instead of shoot to kill?

    Gob****es


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Land of the dollar, home of the coward


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    threeball wrote: »
    Are you suggesting they cuffed him after they shot him??

    Yes. They do that when the guy is still moving. You'll notice they are still pointing their guns at him too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Why aren't police trained to shoot to disarm instead of shoot to kill?

    Gob****es

    Because only a gob****e would shoot like that. Anyone trained in medium to close range firearms is trained to aim for the largest target, the center of the body, to reduce the chances of missing. A cop who tries to disarm someone by shooting a limb is going to become a dead cop very quickly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,422 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Why aren't police trained to shoot to disarm instead of shoot to kill?

    Gob****es

    Because when you're using a firearm in such a scenario you aim for the centre of mass.

    1. So you stop the target
    2, so you don't miss the target and accidentally hit a bystander.

    Have you ever fired a pistol? Its not as easy as it looks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    o1s1n wrote: »
    Because when you're using a firearm in such a scenario you aim for the centre of mass.

    1. So you stop the target
    2, so you don't miss the target and accidentally hit a bystander.

    Have you ever fired a pistol? Its not as easy as it looks.

    I'm sure he's seen plenty of shooting on tv.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Why aren't police trained to shoot to disarm instead of shoot to kill?

    Gob****es


    Shooting to disarm would be akin to trying to stab gently.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    Americas gun laws are ridiculous.

    Nothing will be done until they Democrats are in power of both houses. Even then it might not not.

    This is a debate that comes up weekly as this stage and will continue to.

    It'll probably take a famous person or political figure to get wrongly killed for anything to happen.


    ....these are cops......


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    Just saw the video, he was battering the head off a police officer, then as they were trying to subdue him it looks like he went for one officers gun, self defense my the cops to shoot him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Because only a gob****e would shoot like that. Anyone trained in medium to close range firearms is trained to aim for the largest target, the center of the body, to reduce the chances of missing. A cop who tries to disarm someone by shooting a limb is going to become a dead cop very quickly.
    In person of interest he only shoots people in the knee. It's a much better place to shoot someone because it disables them completely to the point they can't shoot back anymore and go to sleep.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    One question on stuff like this, Why is his homeless status chucked about so much. Officers attended reports of a Robbery, Tried to detain suspect then shot. You would think the Outrage mongers were trying to generated more outrage. Same with his mental issues, Are the officers trained psychiatrist and able to make a judgement of that. The guy could have been high on crack and acting up. Loads of stuff brought up after the fact to stoke fire.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭Wide Load


    How many cops were there, 10? Surely they could have subdued him without taking his life?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,743 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    Im actually seriously considering cancelling my planned trip to LA later this year over these deaths...I know people may say Im being silly and that if you do nothing wrong they wont go near you and you're more likely to be killed at home etc etc but Im at a stage now where Im just going to be terrified even being in the presence of an american cop, they seem so utterly charged to kill at all times, and when Im nervous I trip or say/do stupid things and they may think Im up to no good and BAM im dead.

    I have a week planned in May to see LA and Vegas and Im now at a point where the cops there are making me very close to cancelling it. Not sure what to bloody do. :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭pojfexcsc


    Just saw the video, he was battering the head off a police officer, then as they were trying to subdue him it looks like he went for one officers gun, self defense my the cops to shoot him.

    Getting walloped in the head by some fella while being surrounded by 6 or 7 of your pals justifies you shooting someone on the deck 6 times point blank, aye right.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    Seeing as a black cop shot the black man, will the usual racism framing device be used. Or are we just going with evil cops this time.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    One question on stuff like this, Why is his homeless status chucked about so much. Officers attended reports of a Robbery, Tried to detain suspect then shot. You would think the Outrage mongers were trying to generated more outrage. Same with his mental issues, Are the officers trained psychiatrist and able to make a judgement of that. The guy could have been high on crack and acting up. Loads of stuff brought up after the fact to stoke fire.

    He could have "been" many things or none of them. Why do the laws of human nature just cease to apply in America? Why does reality just get suspended there and nowhere else? Why does these fantasyland "could-have..." scenarios only exist there? In one traffic incident more shots were fired at a car in the space of a minute than all shots fired by ALL German police for the entire YEAR.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭caustic 1


    These are cops, they are trained, so what, they are also only human and are scrutinised in every decision they make and more so in present times, rightly so, however they reacted to an incident and the outcome was awful. Can any of you say you would have made the right decision in such a charged situation. Of course you can say how you would like to react and of course it would be the right outcome and every one lives happily every after. Not very real though is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Timmyctc wrote: »
    Seeing as a black cop shot the white man, will the usual racism framing device be used. Or are we just going with evil cops this time.

    The white cop shot him, the deceased allegedly reached for the black cops gun.

    But I don't think race comes into this one. Homeless people whether white or black will be treated just as brutally by US police.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In the video, just before he gets shot you can clearly hear the noise of a stun-gun/tazer in operation. If the victim was somehow able to deliberately focus on and reach for a cops gun while this was happening to him, then that's quite an achievement. What's the point of a stun-gun or tazer when they end up having to shoot him anyway?

    Also, the fact that 6+ grown men were not able to bring this to a conclusion without using deadly force screams of professional incompetency.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Wide Load wrote: »
    How many cops were there, 10? Surely they could have subdued him without taking his life?

    I think the video shows that's what they were trying to do. I'm not sure how often you restrain struggling men on the ground but it's quite a difficult task if they don't want to cooperate. It really makes no difference how many there is once you go over four because there's only so many that can get involved before they just get in each others way and make things more difficult.
    Im actually seriously considering cancelling my planned trip to LA later this year over these deaths...I know people may say Im being silly and that if you do nothing wrong they wont go near you and you're more likely to be killed at home etc etc but Im at a stage now where Im just going to be terrified even being in the presence of an american cop, they seem so utterly charged to kill at all times, and when Im nervous I trip or say/do stupid things and they may think Im up to no good and BAM im dead.

    I have a week planned in May to see LA and Vegas and Im now at a point where the cops there are making me very close to cancelling it. Not sure what to bloody do. :confused:

    Best to cancel. Not worth worrying about the big bad policeman going to get you. Although most people seem to get on fine once they don't attack or threaten the cop. Not sure if that's something you can commit to not doing though.
    Timmyctc wrote: »
    Seeing as a black cop shot the white man, will the usual racism framing device be used. Or are we just going with evil cops this time.

    The crowd seemed pretty sure he was a black guy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    The crowd seemed pretty sure he was a black guy.

    Oh I misspoke. My apologies. I am aware he was black however./


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    stankratz wrote: »
    In the video, just before he gets shot you can clearly hear the noise of a stun-gun/tazer in operation. If the victim was somehow able to deliberately focus on and reach for a cops gun while this was happening to him, then that's quite an achievement. What's the point of a stun-gun or tazer when they end up having to shoot him anyway?

    Also, the fact that 6+ grown men were not able to bring this to a conclusion without using deadly force screams of professional incompetency.

    Non-lethal weapons don't work on everyone. Have a look at this video of cops using mace on a fella



    Most people would be floored with the first spray. Does this mean the cops should stop using mace altogether and just shoot the guy? The fact that the guy in the op is able to resist the taser should surely give you an idea of how hard it would be to cuff him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Letree


    Man resists arrest, man tries to grab policemans gun, man gets shot. So what.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Im actually seriously considering cancelling my planned trip to LA later this year over these deaths...I know people may say Im being silly and that if you do nothing wrong they wont go near you and you're more likely to be killed at home etc etc but Im at a stage now where Im just going to be terrified even being in the presence of an american cop, they seem so utterly charged to kill at all times, and when Im nervous I trip or say/do stupid things and they may think Im up to no good and BAM im dead.

    I have a week planned in May to see LA and Vegas and Im now at a point where the cops there are making me very close to cancelling it. Not sure what to bloody do. :confused:

    I would say go. You'll enjoy yourself. LA and Vegas are both sh1tholes but you can have a nice time. Indulge yourself in the food, the booze and the tackiness, just avoid the cops at all costs. Do not deal with them unless you really have to and if you get robbed and you are drunk I wouldn't approach them at all. You'll probably wind up in a cell or the ER yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Sure could be worse could be an unarmed politician walking the streets of Moscow


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Non-lethal weapons don't work on everyone. Have a look at this video of cops using mace on a fella



    Most people would be floored with the first spray. Does this mean the cops should stop using mace altogether and just shoot the guy? The fact that the guy in the op is able to resist the taser should surely give you an idea of how hard it would be to cuff him.

    If anything that video shows even moreso how unprofessional the cops in the homeless shooting were. The guy in that video is huge and the cops are much, much smaller and still they manage to restrain him despite him having a glass in his hand at one point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    TommyOM wrote: »
    If anything that video shows even moreso how unprofessional the cops in the homeless shooting were. The guy in that video is huge and the cops are much, much smaller and still they manage to restrain him despite him having a glass in his hand at one point.

    Yeah, looked like a piece of cake for them. :rolleyes:


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  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    I think the video shows that's what they were trying to do. I'm not sure how often you restrain struggling men on the ground but it's quite a difficult task if they don't want to cooperate. It really makes no difference how many there is once you go over four because there's only so many that can get involved before they just get in each others way and make things more difficult.



    Best to cancel. Not worth worrying about the big bad policeman going to get you. Although most people seem to get on fine once they don't attack or threaten the cop. Not sure if that's something you can commit to not doing though.



    The crowd seemed pretty sure he was a black guy.

    So in your world the only alternative to restraining someone is to kill them.
    Is the life of someone so cheap to you?


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