Police Shoot and Kill Homeless Man

Fukuyama

Manic Moran wrote: »

I will agree with much of this, with the exception of the dislike for prior military service, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, ex-servicemen have a demonstrated ability to adhere to the discipline, structure and fitness which is common both to emergency services and the military. Note, all emergency services: fire departments like ex-servicemen just as much as the police do. Ever notice how police recruit training and army recruit training have so many similarities?

Secondly, they are more likely to have seen the elephant. Like it or not, there is a requirement that a policeman is capable of quickly reacting to a lethal threat. This is an unknown for many people, but once people have faced it, you know better how they'll react.

Thirdly, you obviously haven't encountered many US Marines off-duty. They are unfailingly the most polite and respectful people I have ever met on civilian streets, more so than any other branch in my experience. In combat they are some of the most aggressive fighters you will come across, but it's a weapon they retain holstered until they need it.

I know you're in the US military (army? Can't remember. I remember tanks of some description! :P ) . However, I don't buy into the military love fest that goes on in the US, and it's undeniable that it exists. Americans themselves are tired of the adoration of their own troops at this stage. I have encountered a few ex military in my short spells in the US. No idea if they were marines. They seems okay. Pretty normal. But then I didn't get on their bad side or really get to know them.

I respect them no more or no less than I would an Irish/UK/French soldier - on an individual basis.

A blanket ban on former military might not be the solution. You're right. The majority are well trained with weapons and can restrain themselves in situations where the average person would have gone caveman. I reckon most of these 'suspicious' shooting are done by non-veteran cops. Furthermore, a lot of smart people with exellent mental skills emerge from communications, medical, logistic, engineering and infantry roles from the military. They can remain calm when everyone else is going haywire.

However - many US cops that come in from the marines carry on the Marine's infamous, super macho, aggressive, stand-offish culture. It's respected and feared around the world and it's why Marines are very often first into the breech.

But think of the average civilian trying to approach a police officer. Cops are social workers as much as they are brutes with handcuffs. Like it or not, the military's (and especially the Marine's) training is hard to reverse. Going from firefights and IEDs in Afghanistan to calmly defusing a domestic dispute isn't an easy transition to make.

Maybe the solution is that a stage of the interviewing process should try to determine whether a recruit can handle the demands of modern policing. Many companies conduct group interviews and often embed fake applicants who deliberately try to humiliate, question, annoy and disobey participants to see how they can cope. Might be a potential solution which would still allow ex-marines the opportunity to join.

c_man

Manic Moran wrote: »

Ever notice how police recruit training and army recruit training have so many similarities?

Yes, now that you mention it there are pretty much the same. Usually ask to look up and down, run around and press aim. Given, most of my experience of that is in videogames but I read you loud and clear.

FalconGirl

Ridiculously excessive force. Psychopathic cop should be locked up.

Father Ted Crilly

I am not gonna watch that video. Those "police" deserve the death sentence.

steddyeddy

The cops have serious issues tbh. As does anyone who thinks this is reasonable force.

Fukuyama

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

I am not gonna watch that video. Those "police" deserve the death sentence.

And the Supreme Court nomination goes to... :rolleyes:

diomed

FalconGirl wrote: »

Ridiculously excessive force. Psychopathic cop should be locked up.

The whole police force?

steddyeddy

I'll put it this way. I have have been attacked by drug addicts twice in Dublin. Once on my own and other time with groups. I wouldn't have military training but I have some boxing training. I managed to get out of difficulty with relative ease. I didn't have to kill him you may have guessed.

Take the guards in Ireland who regularly deal with people resisting arrest. Some of these have guns and there have been incidents where unarmed guards chased armed criminals.

Here we have several well trained police being attacked by one man and they shoot him several times. They felt they had to kill him. They couldn't have handled it without shooting a clearly disturbed man. They're trigger happy cowards and that's there is to it.

ScumLord

Dean0088 wrote: »

However, I don't buy into the military love fest that goes on in the US, and it's undeniable that it exists.

The Americans do seem to idolise their troops going off American TV.I saw one recently where an American soldier lost a quiz show but they gave him the prise anyway and a big thank you for your service. Whenever someone from the military pops up in a TV show they're always some sort of captain America character, when they do something bad it's for noble reasons and even when criticizing the military they never really show any American military officer in a bad light.

Some American TV seems to be stuck in a rut of hyper patriotism. However at the same time we get a hell of a lot of our anti american ammunition from Americans themselves. Americans are often the ones most vocal and stubborn in criticizing America, it's often Americans that expose American coruption. While some things in America are fugged up the only reason we know about it is because Americans themselves highlighting their flaws to the world in an attempt to fix them.


It's hard to tell with that video, the guy being arrested looks manic. It's all to easy to judge from the comfort of a computer desk, but if any of us were in the same position it would take a hell of a lot of self control not to panic and shot if you see some manic guy you've been wrestling put a finger tip on a gun.

All us us ordinary untrained citizens are more likely to panic than someone trained and experienced in dealing with dangerous people, maybe he acted to soon, maybe he did exactly the right thing to protect everyone there. The problem is for Us police is that guns are in the mix. That wouldn't have happened in Ireland because there wouldn't have been a gun there in the first place.

AlanS181824

That's absolutely awful.

May he RIP.

steddyeddy

Absolute thugs in uniform. May someone their own size pick on them one day.

Manic Moran

Dean0088 wrote: »

However, I don't buy into the military love fest that goes on in the US, and it's undeniable that it exists.

You and me both. But that has very little relevance to the suitability of a former serviceman to a police organisation.

Fukuyama

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll put it this way. I have have been attacked by drug addicts twice in Dublin. Once on my own and other time with groups. I wouldn't have military training but I have some boxing training. I managed to get out of difficulty with relative ease. I didn't have to kill him you may have guessed.

Take the guards in Ireland who regularly deal with people resisting arrest. Some of these have guns and there have been incidents where unarmed guards chased armed criminals.

Here we have several well trained police being attacked by one man and they shoot him several times. They felt they had to kill him. They couldn't have handled it without shooting a clearly disturbed man. They're trigger happy cowards and that's there is to it.

I'd disagree with you there. Most arrests in Ireland AND the USA go down peacefully. If there is violence it's minimal and rarely involves a gun.

However, a regular garda directly coming across a gun is a rare occurrence. If it happens once in a career they're unlucky. Most will never even find a gun during a search, let alone have one pointed at them.

Those that do, do not pursue at close range. They'll let the gun wielding criminals run off and then follow from a safe distance to report location to armed units.

In the US, most cops will never even fire their weapon and drawing it from its holster with intention to possibly fire might only happen a few times in a 30 year career.

In a handful of cities (NY, LA, Detroit etc..) it's a WEEKLY if not DAILY occurrence for cops. Until you've actually been to one of these place (I have) then you won't understand the tense atmosphere that hangs in the air. There are often multiple murders a day and gang violence often escalates quickly with tit-for-tat reprisals.

It's a far cry from even the worst of Ireland's problems.

darced

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Little CuChulainn

steddyeddy wrote: »

Take the guards in Ireland who regularly deal with people resisting arrest. Some of these have guns and there have been incidents where unarmed guards chased armed criminals.

The Gardaí in Ireland have also shot and killed a number of people. And while it's all very good to point out that they regularly arrest people without shooting them, it's easy to forget that 10% of the force is injured every year so it is not an ideal situation by far.

Fukuyama

darced wrote: »

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He really did not want to shoot him. He ordered him multiple times to put his hand away from his waist band and fired only after repeated warnings.

The car was suspicious and the occupants were known to cops. He very clearly is torn up over it - particularly the fact that the man was unarmed in the end. However it was a justified kill.

He isn't a coward. Not by any definition of the word. He had no ego or macho crap going on. He pulled over a suspicious vehicle, that's all. The occupant got himself shot.

If you were a cop and some junkie kept moving his hand towards his waistband, ignoring warnings, are you really going to wait until he produces whatever he might be reaching for in a dark car?

Cops are people too. They have families they want to see again. He made the right choice and it was obviously a difficult one for him to make.

Fukuyama

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The Gardaí in Ireland have also shot and killed a number of people. And while it's all very good to point out that they regularly arrest people without shooting them, it's easy to forget that 10% of the force is injured every year so it is not an ideal situation by far.

+1

It's also important to point out that you really have to push the boat out to get shot by a garda in Ireland. Chances are it'll be ERU or RSU officers who will only shoot as a very (very very very) last resort.

If a garda is ever pointing a gun at you then it's highly likely you've made a whole series of terrible decisions to put yourself in that situation.

Egginacup

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That's not my logic. That's just an opinion that you are attributing to me.

You said that if someone can't be restrained then lethal force is necessary..did you not?

Little CuChulainn

Egginacup wrote: »

You said that if someone can't be restrained then lethal force is necessary..did you not?

No, I don't think so. I've had a look back through my posts on this thread and I can't see anything to that effect. It seems to be something you just made up and attributed to me so you could have an argument.

darced

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Little CuChulainn

darced wrote: »

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They should really hire hardened warriors like yourself. Forged in the fires of action movies and armed with the Keyboard of Judgement. You cannot train someone to handle a situation like that. There is no way to predict how a person will react in a real life situation when the adrenalin starts pumping and the fight or flight reflex tries to take over. If you want people out there enforcing the law and putting themselves in dangerous situations then this is just something you have to accept.

eeepaulo

I hear what you are saying but in this case 6 cops going to arrest someone in a tent, (that isnt confirmed but is being suggested) various batons / tasers / guns /sprays.

Could they have been any less competent?

Im trying to think of a situation i would trust these people in.

Fukuyama

darced wrote: »

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Jittery and Paranoid? Isn't this exactly how anybody would be when outnumbered in darkness by multiple junkies, one of whom keeps reaching for what could well be a gun, and you're rapidly approaching having to kill another human being and you really don't want to?

Get a grip. Nobody, cop, soldier or Iron Man can kill unflinchingly. In the moment the training might kick in and they can function for a few extra minutes. But the prevalence in PTSD among cops and troops who engaged enemies is proof.

He may have been "shreiking like a 6 year old" - so what? He's in a crap situation. I suppose you'd be Jame Bond or something? It never ever goes down like it does in the movies where the cop has an easy, obvious bad guy to shoot in the leg and he's a hero forever.

somefeen

If the cops didnt have guns there wouldnt have been a gun there for him to reach for.

jackofalltrades

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll put it this way. I have have been attacked by drug addicts twice in Dublin. Once on my own and other time with groups. I wouldn't have military training but I have some boxing training. I managed to get out of difficulty with relative ease. I didn't have to kill him you may have guessed.

And were you armed when the drug addicts assaulted you?
Because unless you were then the two situations aren't comparable.

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The officer shot the man because he thought he was reaching for a weapon.
Retreating would have given him a further chance to draw the weapon and fire on him.

Fukuyama

Manic Moran wrote: »

You and me both. But that has very little relevance to the suitability of a former serviceman to a police organisation.

I'd say it does. A lot of people wan't vets to get jobs. And as a cop they still get to carry a gun and wear a flag to work.

Vast swathes of the US population are illogically protective of the military and vets. It's at a point where if a politician forgets to worship vets at an event, or maybe suggests a more realistic approach to dealing with military affairs, their career is basically over.

Kalman

yipeeeee wrote: »

You reach for a cops gun that's what happens, fairly simple logic.

Mother****er mother****er:) gotta love the American twang.

He should have went quietly !

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm up for correction, But no police force in the world is trained to shoot to wound. Once the gun is drawn it's a lethal force take down. Cops here only shoot to kill just like the UK or another police force in Europe. They did in France.

Cops in America "draw down" on toddlers because they are cretins [the cops, not the toddlers]

German cops don't seem to have the same level of ignorance:

http://www.dw.de/why-german-police-officers-rarely-reach-for-their-guns/a-17884779

YFlyer

jackofalltrades wrote: »

And were you armed when the drug addicts assaulted you?
Because unless you were then the two situations aren't comparable.

So you use all necessary means?

jackofalltrades

YFlyer wrote: »

So you use all necessary means?

What's that got to do with what I said?