dog whisperer

caseyann · 19-03-2011 5:12pm

Huge fan of his.His attitude all dogs are savable is amazing.And wont put a dog down.
One of my most recent favorites i watched was the dog who had so many issues.And he is now a sniffer dog.
That dog was on the cards with everyone else to be put down.

Whispered · 19-03-2011 5:44pm

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

Maybe you could put some helpful training advice on here instead of just dissing CM !

Can you explain what you mean by this? You want me to put training advice on where exactly? This thread, or this forum in general? Because this thread is about CM and opinions on him.

Do you have a problem with me expressing my opinion (backed up with quotes from various professional bodies) on a thread about CM? How about you give your opinion on what has been said intsead of trying to cast doubt on my ability to have an opinion on a topic.

sollar · 19-03-2011 5:49pm

My biggest problem with the cesear milan show is that many stupid dog owners out there will try his methods without having the knowledge or skill to do so properly. I would have to feel sorry for those poor dogs.

andreac · 19-03-2011 6:23pm

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

Yup I do believe there needs to be more research from all quarters - however what Cesar and Victoria and others have done is help owners make some head way with training which is all helpful. And since using Cesars so called 'DOMINANT' training - occassionally at best there is no fighting between my dogs or with any other dog they meet. They will do as they are told but are not robots. They live a happy life but know that I am the boss - I have never had to hit them or anything like that and they are very well adjusted dogs.
Maybe you could put some helpful training advice on here instead of just dissing CM !

In case you didnt know, this thread is about liking/not like Cesar Milan so why would someone post training advice in it??

Also, for your information, Whispered is a regular contributor to the animal forum with a lot of advice on training, handling and so on with dogs so if you read a few of the threads on here you would see that.

kylith · 19-03-2011 6:53pm

It's good that he emphasises exercise and boundries, but I dislike his methods; choking, poking, Alpha rolling. One day someone, or CM himself, will try them on the wrong dog and will wind up in a whole world of trouble.

My dogs do what I say because we have a relationship based on respect and trust. One of my dogs was abused before she wound up in rescue, if I started jabbing her when she did something wrong it would destroy the trust I've worked so hard to build up over the last 3 years.

boomerang · 19-03-2011 7:07pm

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

Sorry but you obviously are seeing what you want to see, he does not 'Kick' dogs but touches them with his foot

Don't agree with you there, actually, by "touching them with his foot" he actually sets the dog off into an explosive reaction, which he then quells through brute physical force.

Let someone "touch" your solar plexus with their shoe and see how that feels...

I'm not even going to start debunking the whole dominance/hierarchy myth that he espouses. People have debunked it thousands of times here and his fans just don't listen.

Shanao · 19-03-2011 7:49pm

I've been training dogs myself for a while now, and I have to say, I only watched a few episodes of his show and those have put me off him for good. I'm actually horrified by some of the stuff he does; its completely unneccesary and yes, it is cruel.
The ones that stick in my mind the most are the one where he forced a young st bernard to climb stairs (something that can do horrendous damage to a young giant breeds joints) and one where he put a shock collar on a dog to stop it from chasing cats.
In the one with the st bernard, he forced the dog up the stairs by dragging it up simply because its owners wanted him upstairs? Why didn't he simply advise them against this because of the high risk of conditions like osteonchondritis occuring? For someone who loves dogs, this was an incredibly stupid thing to do and he should have educated the owners instead of causing potential harm to the dog.
In regards to the one with the shock collar- he put a cat into a crate (Btw gotta ask, just cos he 'loves' dogs, does that mean that he can torment other animals because the poor cat was extremely stressed out), then he let the dog approach the crate and when it barked or growled, he shocked it with the collar. Okay, so i can understand the negative association but did he have to make both a dog and cat suffer just so he can look good? There was a much more humane way of doing this.

Dont even get me started on his 'flooding' method. That's the most idiotic thing anyone could possibly do!!

Sorry to all his fans, but no one can convince me that his methods are good.

I'm also just going to ask; how many dog owners, even board members alone, have found themselves absolutely infuriated by some jackass invited into their own home attempting to copy Cesar's methods with their dog? I know I have, and he was kicked out of the house quite quickly.

lrushe · 19-03-2011 8:09pm

Pro's

Get people off their backsides to excerise their dogs.
Treats a dog like a dog not a furry human.
Uses dogs to help dogs.
Tries to improves the image of Pits and Rotts.

Con's

Makes people think they can treat aggressive dogs themselves.
Dog training has become more about money than dogs to him now (my opinion)
Over stimulating a fearful dog with what they are afraid of.
Alpha rolling dogs.

I don't agree entirely with any one dog trainer I've ever seen on TV, they all have their faults. If you are having trouble with your dog or you're not entirely sure how you should go about raising your dog correctly go see an accredited dog trainer / behaviourist in person and get a program tailored to your dog and your set of circumstances, don't copy a program set out for a different dog which is edited over a half hour of TV and expect it to have the same effect on your dog.
If you like watching CM that's fine, just take him (and all dog trainers on TV) as just what he is, entertainment. You wouldn't watch a DIY programme on TV and try to re-wire your house yourself so your dog should be no different imo.

Cherry Blossom · 19-03-2011 8:11pm

Shanao wrote: »

I'm also just going to ask; how many dog owners, even board members alone, have found themselves absolutely infuriated by some jackass invited into their own home attempting to copy Cesar's methods with their dog? I know I have, and he was kicked out of the house quite quickly.

*Puts hand up* Was even told that I need to learn to bring that dog up properly and put manners in her (7 month old pup). She's the only terrier I've ever met that lets 4 young kids hang off her. This from a person who dumped a puppy-farmed lab with serious problems on us in the guise of a 'present' because he decided he wanted a boxer after all :rolleyes:

Cherry Blossom · 19-03-2011 8:17pm

Just as an aside, exactly what qualifications does CM have as a dog-trainer?

tk123 · 19-03-2011 9:03pm

Shanao wrote: »

I'm also just going to ask; how many dog owners, even board members alone, have found themselves absolutely infuriated by some jackass invited into their own home attempting to copy Cesar's methods with their dog? I know I have, and he was kicked out of the house quite quickly.

Yep - I had a tool alpha roll my then 4 month old retriever in my house when he was still learning not to jump up on people. He's still wary of men 16 months on :mad:
Today he did a stay for 10 mins in the park with other dogs and even a puppy walking by, on wed his fav person in the park was down the other end of the field when we were practicing our obedience and he waited to be released from his 'wait' before going down to see her, he tried to play with a stuffed GSD that was acting as a distraction today when he was in class doing recall work :pac: and then left his new friend to come back to me when I called him. He learned it all with +R training and patience - no 'biting' him with my hand or making psssst sounds or bullying or dominating him.

Discodog · 19-03-2011 10:01pm

If the justification for CM's methods is a comparisons with Wolves then he is wrong - yet again. Wolf packs do not rely on aggression to any great degree. They are social groups that are totally dependant on each other. Aggression just risks injury which could prejudice the pack. CM has latched onto the whole dominance, leader crap & ignored the other aspects of Wolf behaviour.

Incidentally one of my pack displays classic Wolf behaviour in that she sees herself as the mediator. In a Wolf pack one Wolf has the specific job of breaking up any arguments before they cause any harm. Sometimes if I am playing with my youngster & I play growl, the older dog will put herself between me & the youngster. She knows that it's a game but clearly some trait kicks in.

This sums up CM to me - warning it's hilarious but with strong language:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXuj3Kss9c4

Whispered · 19-03-2011 10:02pm

Shanao wrote: »

I'm also just going to ask; how many dog owners, even board members alone, have found themselves absolutely infuriated by some jackass invited into their own home attempting to copy Cesar's methods with their dog? I know I have, and he was kicked out of the house quite quickly.

Me too; I came down the stairs to find a drunken man attempting to subdue Harley with an alpha roll. There were a nice few rows that night.

especially considering it wasn't the first time I'd had words with him about how he treats my dog.

Yes he's a big sloppy dope, but there isn't a dominant bone in his body. What I saw was bullying pure and simple and it's stayed with me and effected my relationship with the person involved.

Discodog · 19-03-2011 10:11pm

Whispered wrote: »

Me too; I came down the stairs to find a drunken man attempting to subdue Harley with an alpha roll. There were a nice few rows that night. especially considering it wasn't the first time I'd had words with him about how he treats my dog.

Was he a burglar ? - or just a male visitor

. Do you usually come downstairs to find drunks in the house - if so can you PM your address

To avoid going off topic see the chill out thread !.

EGAR · 19-03-2011 10:25pm

To compare dog to wolf behaviour is so out dated it isn't even funny anymore. There are literally worlds between dogs and wolves.

CM took old fashioned methods wrapped them up in mumbo jumbo and presented them to the world as his own home grown methods.

I could not and still can't see the attraction his methods hold to people.

If you want to train a dog then use your brain not a chain. Brute force, physical intimidation, bully boy practises etc pp. Anyone who understand the tiniest bit about canine body language should watch these videos with the sound turn off.
And it should soon become clear who the aggressor is. CM has been bitten so often in his *career* - that alone is testament as his inability. He breaks dogs, he doesn't train them.

He is a showman, pure and simple, unfortunately for the dogs..

LucyBliss · 19-03-2011 10:38pm

Discodog wrote: »

Incidentally one of my pack displays classic Wolf behaviour in that she sees herself as the mediator. In a Wolf pack one Wolf has the specific job of breaking up any arguments before they cause any harm. Sometimes if I am playing with my youngster & I play growl, the older dog will put herself between me & the youngster. She knows that it's a game but clearly some trait kicks in.

That's fascinating. I love hearing things like that.

Whispered · 19-03-2011 10:41pm

EGAR wrote: »

If you want to train a dog then use your brain not a chain.

I want this on a car sticker!

Daisy! · 19-03-2011 10:42pm

Oh I have no time for Caesar. He disgusts me to be honest and I know people who went to his live show in Dublin and said it was the biggest waste of time. Rip off. He's a money maker that got lucky.

Victoria on the other hand I like, I like her methods, she's much better. I wouldn't let Caesar near my dog!

EGAR · 19-03-2011 10:58pm

I have a big problem with the *guru* status given to some trainers, be it with horses or dogs etc. Not all dogs alike and what works for one fails for the other. It is ok to take cues, but PLEASE find what is more beneficial for your dog and stop following one person religiously. There is a vast amount of info out there, a vast amount of reward based training methods. You as the owner have to put in the work to find what works for your dog. Dogs are not machines, they do not have an on or off button and are not all the same.

I would recommend for any dog owner a guide to canine body language. It is vitally important to understand properly what your dog is trying to tell you via body language. And you can build on that every day.

EGAR · 19-03-2011 11:03pm

A book on that subject that I can highly recommend for the interested party:

"Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide: Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog by Brenda Aloff"

Edited to add Roger Abrantes' *Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior*

The latter has in depth chapters on all sorts of dog behavior explained in an easy to understand manner. I love that book and it should become a must for each dog owner

LucyBliss · 19-03-2011 11:25pm

I like to dip into watching CM's show from time to time, (a) because I like seeing dogs on TV so I can ooh and aah over them, (b) because it's interesting to see the kinds of problems other people have with their dogs, and (c) I can sit at home and silently judge these people for not being better owners as I forget the hassles mine gave me during the day. (Hey, we're in a recession, money's tight and I have to find my fun where I can!)

But definitely, while it's great that he advocates the walking of dogs - I mean, seriously, your dog doesn't see the outdoors from one end of the week to the other and you're wondering why he's hyped up and destroying your house? Seriously??! - a lot of his methods just wouldn't work for dogs with more regular problems.

I do remember seeing an episode where they were at his dog centre and one of the pack dogs made some growl or noise, I can't remember. He corrected the dog and the dog immediately went on the ground with the submissive position. That just didn't sit well with me. I fully appreciate that with that many dogs, they need to know who the boss is but it was done with such alacrity by the dog...it felt wrong. I can't explain it properly. I know it's a part of dog behaviour. But if my dogs fell into the submissive position everytime I corrected them (if they did, I'd first be thinking they were having some kind of fit!), I would worry about what kind of owner I was.

I don't pretend to be a dog trainer, I'm sure that many here have dogs that are better in some situations than mine and that's fine. While I do insist on my dogs having manners, I am quite liberal with them. It's hard to explain because while I want my dogs to do what I tell them and to respect me, I don't want them to be so dominated by me that they are that submissive. I like their foibles. I love their personalities.

That probably doesn't make a lot of sense but it felt wrong in my gut and over the years, I've learnt to trust that gut feeling.
So if any boards members ever end up meeting my dogs and they try to lick you faces off, you can remember this post and say "yeah, submissive they ain't!"

19-03-2011 11:28pm

EGAR wrote: »

CM took old fashioned methods wrapped them up in mumbo jumbo and presented them to the world as his own home grown methods.

This is not really the case. Its a production team that does this and he is merely playing a character. I am sure he wants to do other things and practice other methods. Its the production team that have all the power so why change a winning formula for a TV show.

At the end of the day all it is, is a TV show, you might as well be disagreeing with Jack Sugden's farming technique on Emmerdale.

LucyBliss · 19-03-2011 11:43pm

I don't know though. He got his own TV show through appearing on Oprah some years ago, after he worked with her and her dog and if you look at his books, he's been peddling the same message all the time.

Also, IIRC both he and his ex-wife are credited as producers/executive producers and the show gets ratings because of his name. They have enough clout to decide to change, if it were the case that a production team were telling them what to do. I mean, the production team might say "we're going to NYC next time", or "That dog looks better on TV than that one" but when it comes to essentials like training methods, I doubt they're calling the shots.

19-03-2011 11:58pm

Its very hard to tell how much creative control he has but he will do what the money tells him .

EGAR · 20-03-2011 12:00am

Deleted User wrote: »

Its very hard to tell how much creative control he has but he will do what the money tells him .

And I quote myself from a post further up:

He is a showman, pure and simple, unfortunately for the dogs..

LucyBliss · 20-03-2011 12:03am

Perhaps, but I would have said that these days he is the money. His books sell, so do his public appearances. He's got the Oprah personal commendation and he has a range of dog accessories with his name on it. Plus he makes cameos in TV shows and films.

Not too shabby for someone who came to America from Mexico with very little in his pockets.

Cherry Blossom · 20-03-2011 12:10am

EGAR wrote: »

Anyone who understand the tiniest bit about canine body language should watch these videos with the sound turn off.
And it should soon become clear who the aggressor is.

The only thing my pup has ever growled at, ever, is Ceaser Milan on tv, not that he is on my tv much.

EGAR wrote: »

A book on that subject that I can highly recommend for the interested party:

"Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide: Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog by Brenda Aloff"

Edited to add Roger Abrantes' *Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior*

The latter has in depth chapters on all sorts of dog behavior explained in an easy to understand manner. I love that book and it should become a must for each dog owner

*Toodles off to amazon . . . .

EGAR · 20-03-2011 12:20am

LucyBliss wrote: »

Perhaps, but I would have said that these days he is the money. His books sell, so do his public appearances. He's got the Oprah personal commendation and he has a range of dog accessories with his name on it. Plus he makes cameos in TV shows and films.

Not too shabby for someone who came to America from Mexico with very little in his pockets.

I am convinced that had he been a female he would not have been so successful.

Whispered · 20-03-2011 12:49am

LucyBliss wrote: »

So if any boards members ever end up meeting my dogs and they try to lick you faces off, you can remember this post and say "yeah, submissive they ain't!"

Perfect sense and a really lovely post.

caseyann · 20-03-2011 12:55am

The man saved dogs others wanted to kill.Enough said!

dog whisperer

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