dog whisperer

Whispered

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

tied to poles and raced around rearing, bucking and screaming and pulled over on their head to 'train' them not to rear then it started all over again with some idiot on their back until they gave up and lay down, not because they were calm and submissive but because they have gone past the point where they want to live and give in to the 'predator' in the hope that death will come quicker.

That is horrific. Is there a major difference then in the reliability of the horse after this method of breaking. (for want of a better word)

peasant

caseyann wrote: »

Depends on location.
I accidentally came across that situation last year.
The dog was huddled in a ball terrified of everyone moving.
It had a gaping big wound on the back of its neck where half its hair was missing and oozing puss.A couple of people tried to approach it and the dog came out all teeth squealing and growling.
I got quite worried,so i sat on the bars beside the shop couple of feet away from the dog no eye contact.I had just bought some chicken pieces.So i put some on the ground a little away from me as he looked hungry.He sniffed at me a couple of times from a distance and then ate the food.I got up and walked away.And he followed me home.When i got to the house i held the gate open and allowed him in.Didnt touch him and sat on the ground till he came over to me.He lay down on the ground beside me on the blanket i put out for him.I treated the wound he had and brought him to the vet.It took me two days to get him to relax around other people and pretty soon that dog was a picture of health.The people who he attacked previously couldnt believe it was the same dog.
Depends on situation.

Well done! (seriously!)

But you do remember that you didn't have to choke the dog, flood it, exercise it, alpa-roll it, dominate it or show it its place in the pack?

All you had to do is gain its trust ...and in the end that's what proper dog training is all about

Whispered

caseyann wrote: »

Depends on location.
I accidentally came across that situation last year.
The dog was huddled in a ball terrified of everyone moving.
It had a gaping big wound on the back of its neck where half its hair was missing and oozing puss.A couple of people tried to approach it and the dog came out all teeth squealing and growling.
I got quite worried,so i sat on the bars beside the shop couple of feet away from the dog no eye contact.I had just bought some chicken pieces.So i put some on the ground a little away from me as he looked hungry.He sniffed at me a couple of times from a distance and then ate the food.I got up and walked away.And he followed me home.When i got to the house i held the gate open and allowed him in.Didnt touch him and sat on the ground till he came over to me.He lay down on the ground beside me on the blanket i put out for him.I treated the wound he had and brought him to the vet.It took me two days to get him to relax around other people and pretty soon that dog was a picture of health.The people who he attacked previously couldnt believe it was the same dog.
Depends on situation.

Sounds ideal, well done for helping him. Do you honestly think CM would have done it in the same way?

Bullseye1

Its amazing how many experts we have on here who can read what a dog is thinking. What qualifications are you employing?

Cherry Blossom

Whispered wrote: »

That is horrific. Is there a major difference then in the reliability of the horse after this method of breaking. (for want of a better word)

ETA: Massively off-topic, I'll PM you instead!

caseyann

Whispered wrote: »

Sounds ideal, well done for helping him. Do you honestly think CM would have done it in the same way?

Thanks.Not the first time wont be last either.The dog has a beautiful energy about him which helps.

I cant comment on what he would do in that situation as i have never seen him with an injured dog.I am sure he would have done the same.I do recall him helping a dog be rescued with animal welfare before in a derelict house.
But i cant find it on line and dont remember the method he used.

Cherry Blossom

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Its amazing how many experts we have on here who can read what a dog is thinking. What qualifications are you employing?

I can't speak for anyone else but I have at least as many qualifications in canine psychology as Cesar Millan does!

caseyann

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL13n-yYy8I&feature=related

What would you call this?
And this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL13n-yYy8I&feature=related

kylith

caseyann wrote: »

There is no way that dog got kicked hard.

The strength of the kick has nothing to do with it. If I brought my dog to a trainer who so much as tapped it with their foot I would be livid. No trainer should ever, ever behave in such a way. As can be seen it can make a borderline dog go mental and could terrify a nervous dog almost beyond help. the damage done by one 'tap' could take a long, long time to fix.

I'd be very interested to see the stats on how many dogs 'helped' by CM either need further help down the line, or wind up being PTS when problems resurface.

vampire of kilmainham

woff woff:D:D:D:D:D:D

Bullseye1

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I can't speak for anyone else but I have at least as many qualifications in canine psychology as Cesar Millan does!

That wasn't the question. This section of the forum which for whatever reason has attracted a very aggressive element of "preachers" who sit on their high horses preaching to the rest of the community. Yet I don't see them quoting their qualifications in dog psychology.

You might also have noticed when someone posts that they have a problem with their dog some of posters here immediately jump on them and scold them as though they were kids. Many of them are looking for advice and are in a distressed state. The last thing they need is a know it all preacher lecturing to them.

There is also an element of ressentment towards breeders of pedigree breeds with some people lumping them altogether with puppy farms.

toadfly

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There is also an element of ressentment towards breeders of pedigree breeds with some people lumping them altogether with puppy farms.

What has that got to do with CM?

SophieSakura

Bullseye1 wrote: »

You might also have noticed when someone posts that they have a problem with their dog some of posters here immediately jump on them and scold them as though they were kids. Many of them are looking for advice and are in a distressed state. The last thing they need is a know it all preacher lecturing to them.

There is also an element of ressentment towards breeders of pedigree breeds with some people lumping them altogether with puppy farms.

This is really true, most animal forums seem to be like that. People can be very judgemental, I guess because they have strong opinions about animals.

seamus

andreac wrote: »

Yes he does!!! I have seen the videos to prove it, a dog laid on the ground after it, barely able to breathe, was on the verge of death because he had been choked for so long. The video clip has since been removed from you tube, go figure:rolleyes:
Wake up and realise we are not posting this stuff for a laugh, he actually did it and we saw the footage to prove it.

andrea, if you're going to post up defamatory comments then I would ask that you at least provide a link to a remotely respectable corroborating source, videos or no videos.

"I've seen a video, but I can't show it to you" is unfortunately inadequate if you're going to accuse someone of animal cruelty.

Edit: That of course applies to everyone

Discodog

Bullseye1 wrote: »

You might also have noticed when someone posts that they have a problem with their dog some of posters here immediately jump on them and scold them as though they were kids. Many of them are looking for advice and are in a distressed state. The last thing they need is a know it all preacher lecturing to them.

There is also an element of ressentment towards breeders of pedigree breeds with some people lumping them altogether with puppy farms.

Not the old lecturing argument again. Look at this thread. A group of people, many of whom have a vast amount of experience, have spent their valuable time trying to explain & demonstrate why CM is wrong. Anyone who has an ounce of animal understanding can see that CM's methods are outdated & unfounded which is why he gets widely criticised.

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Its amazing how many experts we have on here who can read what a dog is thinking. What qualifications are you employing?

You don't need qualifications to understand basic dog communication. If you were to read the two books that EGAR recommended you would already know more than many "trainers". Also many here have a huge amount of experience.


Breeders/puppy farms is a different topic but with 20,000 unwanted dogs being killed every year here you can hardly blame people for trying to save lives rather than adding to the problem.

ISDW

ISDW wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but if you look at around 2:50 of that video, the dog isn't doing anything wrong at all, its next to the other dog and is behaving impeccably, until Cesar kicks it, then it starts biting.

Yeah i can see that but i can see that Cesar is trying to take dogs attention away from the other dog. Now he used his foot and it touches the dog with his heel and hisses and the dog reacts.

I am just saying what i am seeing .

ISDW

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah i can see that but i can see that Cesar is trying to take dogs attention away from the other dog. Now he used his foot and it touches the dog with his heel and hisses and the dog reacts.

I am just saying what i am seeing .

But why did he need to take the dog's attention away from the other dog? He wasn't doing anything wrong. Would a better way to get a dog's attention not be to say his name, teach him a command like 'look at me' and then give him a treat for doing it? Then maybe the dog would associate other dogs with nice things and behave better. I just don't get why you need to kick him like that - well I do, in my opinion its to get the kind of reaction that he did, for the cameras.

ISDW

ISDW wrote: »

But why did he need to take the dog's attention away from the other dog? .

I agree with that , i cant see why he did. I have not seen the whole thing. Did the dog have a history of going for other dogs ?

Cherry Blossom

caseyann wrote: »

What would you call this?
And this

That's the same video you have posted twice. I would call it a combination of flooding and positive reinforcement. The flooding is un-necessary and used as a short-cut instead of proper slow desensitization because:

Simple desensitizing wasn't going to be enough for these dogs, who already have serious aggression problems with bite histories, to be returned to their owners within a 2 month period

If 2 months isn't enough time, they should be in the program longer, not have the process rushed through.

<ETA> With the dogs walking off-lead it doesn't show how they trained them, just the end result.

andreac

seamus wrote: »

andrea, if you're going to post up defamatory comments then I would ask that you at least provide a link to a remotely respectable corroborating source, videos or no videos.

"I've seen a video, but I can't show it to you" is unfortunately inadequate if you're going to accuse someone of animal cruelty.

Edit: That of course applies to everyone

The link i saw was removed from youtube but someone else has posted the same clip since in this thread so it is there.
I have edited my original post now with the link i was referring to.

ISDW

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with that , i cant see why he did. I have not seen the whole thing. Did the dog have a history of going for other dogs ?

I don't know, the commentary isn't particularly clear, just says its aggressive, but then it also calls the dog a malamute, so who knows? If anything I'd say thats a Northern Inuit, but I don't think that breed exists in the US.

I have friends that went to Cesar's Dublin show last year and really enjoyed it, didn't learn anything, but it was good entertainment, which is fine. As I've said previously, I'd love to meet him and actually see him work with a dog, through the whole process rather than edited TV highlights. I'm not a behaviourist or a trainer, I have sent 3 dogs to a behaviourist that came through the rescue that I felt I wasn't qualified enough to be able to help. Well, 2 of them needed specialist help, one of them could have been worked with here, but he bit me really badly and so I was afraid of him, so I couldn't work with him. It was kind of an accidental bite, he went for another dog and my hand was in the way, but still, even though I knew he didn't mean it, the fear was there then for me.

We had one husky came to stay at the boarding kennels, the previous kennels he'd been in refused to have him back, said he was too dangerous. They couldn't get him out of his pen for exercise. He was a lovely dog when he arrived, but once his owners had gone and he was in his pen, he turned into a devil dog:rolleyes: But, I went into his pen, with a big thick coat on, huge gloves etc, and just sat with him and he was lovely. He was just scared and the only way he could show that was with aggression. He came back to stay a few times after that, and never showed that aggression again, once he realised I wasn't going to hurt him.

caseyann

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with that , i cant see why he did. I have not seen the whole thing. Did the dog have a history of going for other dogs ?

Yes he did,and the dog did the exact same actions of trying to get at its own owners while on the lead.
Have you not watched the whole video?

ISDW

ISDW wrote: »

I don't know, the commentary isn't particularly clear, just says its aggressive, but then it also calls the dog a malamute, so who knows? If anything I'd say thats a Northern Inuit, but I don't think that breed exists in the US..

I thought that too, i thought it was some sort of Wolf cross . You have to remember the director needs to get the shots also , so its probably an unnatural situation which will add to the anxiety for the dog .

Shanao

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Its amazing how many experts we have on here who can read what a dog is thinking. What qualifications are you employing?

Qualified in basic obedience when i was sixteen, advanced obedience when I was eighteen, since have studied and qualified in canine behaviour, cynology, veterinary nursing, dog grooming, animal welfare, and kennel craft, and even though I still wouldn't call myself an expert (far too much for me to learn still as far as I'm concerned) i would consider myself qualified to tell you that Cesar Milan works through fear. Watch some of the dogs in his shows. He provokes the dogs, pushing them into a fearful or nervous state just so he can make himself look even better. Its all for the camera. He would probably make an alright trainer if he wasn't on the television because then he woukdn't have to resort to such tactics.
Most people here have been working with dogs for years, rescuing and rehabilitating so what exactly makes you think they aren't able to read a dog's body language?

And anyone who thinks its right to use a prong collar on a dog should be made wear one instead

homerhop

And anyone who thinks its right to use a prong collar on a dog should be made wear one instead

Didnt know what these were as I have never heard of them, did an image search on the web. nasty looking bit of gear.

caseyann

homerhop wrote: »

Didnt know what these were as I have never heard of them, did an image search on the web. nasty looking bit of gear.

Try one on.


Definitely would use one of them.

andreac

caseyann wrote: »

Try one on.


Definitely would use one of them.

You would??

Cherry Blossom

caseyann wrote: »

Try one on.
Definitely would use one of them.

Try putting it round your neck and get someone to hang you from the roof by it and see how you get on :rolleyes:

Shanao

You would use one of them? Well i guess that's why you wont argue with Cesar Milan because you obviously approve of the cruelty after all. This is what prong collars can do



If putting on something that does this to a dog isn't bullying, then i dont know what is.

EGAR

Over a thousand dogs have come through my doors in the past 15 years. Many with problems, many were dog aggressive, many more had fear aggression.

The worst you find here is a halfcheck collar used for dogs who easily spook so they can't wriggle out it and run away.

I have been bitten twice, once by a Yellow Lab who decided to attack me from behind and once by my own dog (Lurcher) when I split up a dogfight although the latter was entirely my own fault.

I do not use alpha rolls, do not buy into the dominance theory and do not follow any famous dogtrainer. The methods employed here are reward based, often time consuming and tuned to each dog's need. There is no blanket rule for all dogs, it is tailored for each individual dog. Simples. And it works as these dogs are being happily re-homed into family settings as pets. Because I know they have been trained not broken, I know I can trust them to behave in a certain manner in stress situations. EGAR would have long since been shut down if that would not be the case.

I handle dogs fresh from the pound, know nothing about their backrounds etc - never once bitten by one. I take dogs from other rescues as they deem them un-homeable.

And no, I do not consider myself a *special case* . Common sense prevails.

A good friend of mine once offered to sent me training aids (Roger Mugford who has been here quite often and supports EGAR, he runs The Company of Animals) and then sent me an email saying: "You don't really need any of them but perhaps you can sell them to raise funds."

It's easy: you need TRUST to train an animal properly. Everyone can scare an animal into submission - THAT is easy. Trust is not a given, just like with humans, it needs to be earned.