dog whisperer

Stressica

Anyone else here a fanatic of Caesar Milan.. aka dog whisperer?:D

andreac

Nope, definately not, hes certainly not a dog whisperer, his methods are outdated with him trying to dominate the dogs and make them do what he wants through fear and submission.
Hes not the man people think he is...:mad:

pitbull_fanatic

its not fear. in no way does he intimidate a dog. i have used his methods on my two dogs and they are very well behaved and very respectfull. especially with other dogs. its not really outdated though is it...he uses body language that dogs use and understand. i mean dogs dont talk so they will probably use that language for the very long future. i think the man is a genius and a legend. he's a dog lover, how is that cruel???

andreac

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

its not fear. in no way does he intimidate a dog. i have used his methods on my two dogs and they are very well behaved and very respectfull. especially with other dogs. its not really outdated though is it...he uses body language that dogs use and understand. i mean dogs dont talk so they will probably use that language for the very long future. i think the man is a genius and a legend. he's a dog lover, how is that cruel???

Sorry but ive seen footage of him kicking dogs, yanking the heads off them to the point where the dog is lying half unconscious on the ground, using shock and prong collars, so yes, he is cruel and i would never use or advise his methods to anyone.
What you see on the telly is the edited version not the full version:rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQUegRGo0kw

Whispered

Dominating your dog at every turn does not make you a good dog owner, it makes you a bully.

Your dog is scared? Dominate

Your dog has food issues? Dominate

Your dog is confused? Dominate

It's ridiculous.

Fantastic that he pushes the need to exercise your pet, and that he maintains you need to be consistant. The problem is on the show he deals with hard cases, then you have fools trying the same things wiith their pets when a gentler and more understanding approach would be much more appropiate.

Cherry Blossom

No! If I wanted a robot i'd go to toys 'r' us not make one out of a living breathing creature.

pitbull_fanatic

i'd like to see this footage...seeing as he is against shock and prong collars...

he's rehabilitating dogs. he's does this with problem dogs. a dog doesnt want to be dominant. thats why he takes control. it takes alot of pressure off them. its not being a bully. its being in charge. he has the respect of 40 dogs on one walk. hats off to him.

Whispered

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

i'd like to see this footage...seeing as he is against shock and prong collars...

no he's not. Not by a long shot. I'll be back in a few mins with links to the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI&feature=player_embedded#at=110

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHvPhFelym4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpcNOwbRyOE&feature=related




That's just a couple. There are more.

Here also is a link to a website of UK trainers http://www.k9obedience.co.uk/dogbehaviour/behaviourist/cesarmillandogwhisperer.html

there is also a press release by the American Vet society of animal behaviour http://www.seefido.com/dog-discussion-forum/important-data-from-newspapers-and-other-media-f36/the-american-vet-society-of-animal-behavior-speaks-out-t9529.html

ISDW

Whispered wrote: »

no he's not. Not by a long shot. I'll be back in a few mins with links to the videos.

I hope you manage to find the links, its amazing how quickly they get taken down, anybody criticises him and puts a video up somewhere showing what he does, and it gets deleted very, very quickly.

Whispered

ISDW wrote: »

I hope you manage to find the links, its amazing how quickly they get taken down, anybody criticises him and puts a video up somewhere showing what he does, and it gets deleted very, very quickly.

Ha the first video was subject of a great discussion on Phoenix's FB page just 2 days ago. And it's been removed. Was a very intresting video, with bad editing, shows his kicks etc and at one stage shows him lining up to kick a dog in the head, then cut to him saying he "needed to take action". (the dog was behind a baby gate and no action was "needed" besides perhaps backing off to allow the situation diffuse)

sambuka41

There are some good aspects to what he does, like putting the emphasis on the human owner rather than the dog. 99% of the time its something the owner is doing wrong.

It also shows that there is the chance your dogs behaviour will stop with the right training. That message has got to be a big plus for the rescues and pounds, how many times will they have a dog surrendered because of some behaviour that could be altered with training,barking,chewing ect. Whether you fully agree with his processes he is getting that message out there every night.

I dont fully understand the ins and outs of all the different training techniques, I couldnt comment on his use of shock collars, i can only hope that the video is old and maybe he learned that they are not cool. I know what worked for me seemed like a mix of both dominance and reward.

I dont think positive reinforcement is always appropriate, there have to be instances where you are dominating. I dont mean physically kicking or anything but I have def used my body to show dominance over my dog when her behaviour is not ok. Stepping in between her and another person.

I would have never got my dog walking if I hadnt tried tugging on her lead to redirect her attention. She was afraid to walk and rewards werent making a difference so I just went on, i would give a quick sharp jolt on the lead to redirect if she started looking around all panicked. And just keep going forward no matter what. After about 2 days she was grand and now loves her walk. I looked at it like a child, i was the grown up and knew there was nothing to be afraid of so i put her in the position to face that fear and see that. Sometimes they need your to be authoritative, esp when they are young.

After longish post i would say,i dont think he's all that bad.

smilerf

He's ok but i prefer Victoria Stillwells methods

ppink

I saw a beautiful Weimaraner dog one day out for a walk with his very grumpy looking owner. The guy did not even look at the dog who was happily trotting along beside him looking up at him.
Passed them again about 15mins later and saw the guy give the poor dog a swift kick back behind him (same way Cesar does). The poor dog was shocked and I am sure as clueless as me as to why he deserved it.

Anyway I am kind of 40/60 with cesar. I do think he promotes exercise and the dog being a dog not a fluffy accessory(sp:rolleyes:). I am not comfortable with shocks or prongs though. A correction does not need to be that harsh and I think that when folks try to copy him there is a danger of the dog getting walloped.
I saw one of his newest series and I did not see him using much what I would call agressive correcting but I only watched the one.

Whispered

Oh don't get me wrong, I do agree there are times that you need to step up and be the leader. Like with the walking, I have the same issue, nervous walker, and his way of dealing with it was head down, power ahead and ignore everything I said. I had to just stop accepting it.

I think it's important to pick and choose, and to know when something is not appropiate for your dog. I don't know if he places enough emphasis on positive training and I feel that most of the time his methods give a quick fix and nothing more. And so many people blindly follow his methods when really it's not necessary.

I think he's right in saying that a lot of the time it's the human involved. I also like his idea of instinctive training, I firmly believe that if you are in tune with your dog, you'll just know what to do, if that makes sense.

I'd say 80% of his shows are ok, not usually methods I'd use myself (which may be why I have a big excited lump of a dog on my hands?) but not distressing to watch, but the other 20%, well to be honest, if I saw someone treating their dog like that in public, I'd probably intervene. That 20% is enough for me to dislike him. His overall message that comes across to me is that you need to be 100% on your dog 100% of the time. I'd find that very tiring.

I don't think dominance should ever be physical, unless in an emergency situation, or with the likes of blocking/ guiding etc.

sambuka41 wrote: »

There are some good aspects to what he does, like putting the emphasis on the human owner rather than the dog. 99% of the time its something the owner is doing wrong.

It also shows that there is the chance your dogs behaviour will stop with the right training. That message has got to be a big plus for the rescues and pounds, how many times will they have a dog surrendered because of some behaviour that could be altered with training,barking,chewing ect. Whether you fully agree with his processes he is getting that message out there every night.

I dont fully understand the ins and outs of all the different training techniques, I couldnt comment on his use of shock collars, i can only hope that the video is old and maybe he learned that they are not cool. I know what worked for me seemed like a mix of both dominance and reward.

I dont think positive reinforcement is always appropriate, there have to be instances where you are dominating. I dont mean physically kicking or anything but I have def used my body to show dominance over my dog when her behaviour is not ok. Stepping in between her and another person.

I would have never got my dog walking if I hadnt tried tugging on her lead to redirect her attention. She was afraid to walk and rewards werent making a difference so I just went on, i would give a quick sharp jolt on the lead to redirect if she started looking around all panicked. And just keep going forward no matter what. After about 2 days she was grand and now loves her walk. I looked at it like a child, i was the grown up and knew there was nothing to be afraid of so i put her in the position to face that fear and see that. Sometimes they need your to be authoritative, esp when they are young.

After longish post i would say,i dont think he's all that bad.

**Vai**

Whispered wrote: »

no he's not. Not by a long shot. I'll be back in a few mins with links to the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI&feature=player_embedded#at=110

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHvPhFelym4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpcNOwbRyOE&feature=related


First one doesnt work. Second one is not cruelty its allowing a dog to get over a mental block. Third one is bull. The dog in the third vid was not being choked, I cant see how thats even plausible and the gsd, fair enough, I wouldnt use a shock collar either but if it means being able to live with your animals and neither of them being killed, its worth it. That was obviously a last resort. All those scenes were on tv so its not like they were being hidden from the public.

To the OP, theres no point bringing up CM on this forum. Im a big fan, I dont live by everything he does but the vast majority of it I use everyday and find very helpful. I think if it works for you and its not harming your dogs its obviously a good thing.

**Vai**

smilerf wrote: »

He's ok but i prefer Victoria Stillwells methods

Her main method seems to be avoiding all problems and putting temporary solutions in place.

andreac

**Vai** wrote: »

Her main method seems to be avoiding all problems and putting temporary solutions in place.

But you think its ok for Cesar to kick, choke, use prong and shock collars on them? Because thats what he does, ive seen the footage of it.

Galway K9

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but ive seen footage of him kicking dogs, yanking the heads off them to the point where the dog is lying half unconscious on the ground, using shock and prong collars, so yes, he is cruel and i would never use or advise his methods to anyone.
What you see on the telly is the edited version not the full version:rolleyes:

Hi andrea,

Can you provide a source for this footage pls? I think thsi thread will turn very nasty as dog lovers are driven by passion and defensive by ego.

sambuka41

**Vai** wrote: »

Her main method seems to be avoiding all problems and putting temporary solutions in place.

I wouldn't say thats true, Ive not seen to many of her episodes but he ones i have seen seem to kind of be the opposite actually. Lots of time and effort to get her techniques to work.

Like the one with Jodi Marsh, she had her setting alarms to get the dogs out to go bathroom every hour or so. Thats not a temporary solution or avoiding the problem its putting a lot of effort into fixing it.

btw i like Caesar.

**Vai**

andreac wrote: »

But you think its ok for Cesar to kick, choke, use prong and shock collars on them? Because thats what he does, ive seen the footage of it.

Im not going to argue with u over a dog trainer, u think hes cruel, I dont. Im with the above poster, show me the money and I might believe it. Otherwise its just scaremongering and I have no reason to believe u.

GirlFridayEire

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but ive seen footage of him kicking dogs, yanking the heads off them to the point where the dog is lying half unconscious on the ground, using shock and prong collars, so yes, he is cruel and i would never use or advise his methods to anyone.
What you see on the telly is the edited version not the full version:rolleyes:

Sorry but you obviously are seeing what you want to see, he does not 'Kick' dogs but touches them with his foot, this snaps them out of the aggressive mentality and gets them listening again. He works on the dogs own language, the way their hierarchy works, but hey if you think you have something better than Ceasar Milan bring it on ..................

Whispered

The first video I posted had it all in it, but it's been removed. But have a look at the third one I posted.

What about the links I provided to two professional bodies publicly speaking out about dominance training? Is that also scaremongering?

On the subject of V Stilwell, the more episodes I watch the more I like her methods. She herself annoys me but I can find no fault with her methods. In fact one episode in the states had an owner using dominance based training, causing her to have an aggressive dog on her hands. The first thing that was done was all "tools" such as shock mat, collar and prong collar were removed and they worked on building up trust. Any episode she's on where the owner uses such methods she immediately stops it, as a trainer should do.

She genuinely seems to find it hard to understand how anybody could believe hurting or scaring your dog into submission is the way to go.

Whispered

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

Sorry but you obviously are seeing what you want to see, he does not 'Kick' dogs but touches them with his foot, this snaps them out of the aggressive mentality and gets them listening again. He works on the dogs own language, the way their hierarchy works, but hey if you think you have something better than Ceasar Milan bring it on ..................

Have you ever seen your pet dogs kick each other? All of that research was done on wolves. Dogs are not wolves. There are thousands of years of evolution separating dogs from wolves. A good example of this - a wolf would see a smile as a threat - dogs don't. And even at that, it's flawed, there is no one alpha dog in a wolf pack, rather an alpha breeding pair.

Packs of wild dogs would be more reliable to study and in packs of wild dogs there is not nearly as much emphasis on pack placement as in wolf packs.

Something better than Millan? How about working with your dog, setting him up for success and trying to really understand why he acts as he does rather than but everything down to the old fashioned, flawed and already disproved idea of dominance.

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=12230

The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) issued a new position paper aimed at countering some of the pervasive influence of his show, which airs on the National Geographic Channel, and of Millan's training approach, which is based on what the position statement calls outdated dominance theory.

Dogs have lived with humans for 15,000 years, and they evolved as scavengers, not hunters. So it is not legitimate to compare dogs with wolves and wolf packs, which do hunt, according to the statement. The evolutionary pressure on dogs was that the least shy animals were the most successful in ransacking human refuse. Today's free-roaming dogs live in small, less cohesive groups rather than packs and are often alone.

Moreover, the notion that every pack has an aggressive alpha male that rules over all the others originated from observations of captive wolves. But, research on wild wolves suggests that wolf packs are not rigidly controlled by a single domineering male, according to L. David Mech, a senior scientist with the U.S. Geological Survey who has studied wild wolves in Michigan and Northern Minnesota for more than 40 years.

Mech says a pack usually has an alpha pair and that most of the rest of the pack is that pair’s offspring. That means the lead male never fought for dominance but merely reproduced. The lead male does not always lead during hunts or in anything else for that matter.

Dominance theory leads to an antagonistic relationship between human and pet and to negative and coercive training methods, the AVSAB statement says. A punishment approach can backfire.

**Vai**

Whispered, I would never ever hurt or scare my dog into doing anything and I would hate for people to think that because Im a CM fan, I am cruel to my dogs. My dogs obey me because they know who the boss is, not because they are scared of me. The only physical part of CM's training I have used is the 'bite' on the neck. As long as this is done without anger of frustration, it is a perfectly natural part of disciplining a dog for unwanted behaviour.

Far as Im concerned we should listen to these tv trainers less and just use common sense and research the natural behaviour of our dogs in order to understand and get along with them.

Whispered

**Vai** wrote: »

Whispered, I would never ever hurt or scare my dog into doing anything and I would hate for people to think that because Im a CM fan, I am cruel to my dogs. My dogs obey me because they know who the boss is, not because they are scared of me. The only physical part of CM's training I have used is the 'bite' on the neck. As long as this is done without anger of frustration, it is a perfectly natural part of disciplining a dog for unwanted behaviour.

Far as Im concerned we should listen to these tv trainers less and just use common sense and research the natural behaviour of our dogs in order to understand and get along with them.

I don't think you're cruel.

My dogs obey me because they want to make me happy, when I'm happy nice things such as belly rubs, treats, cuddles or even just a pat on the bum happen. They know I'm boss because I'm the provider of food, provider of the couch and the one who brings them walkies. Not because I'm big enough to push them around. (I'm not saying you push your dogs around)

Yes they play up, in which case they are leashed/ crated/ removed from the situation. I've not had to resort to "biting". I think if I lost control to the point I felt I needed to physically reprimand my dog I'd begin looking for advice.

When they are overly focused on something, I usually find a touch is enough to get their attention. It doesn't have to be rough.

I 100% agree with you saying that we should listen to these tv trainers less and just use common sense and research the natural behaviour of our dogs. I think if you're in tune with your pet, good behaviour comes naturally.

andreac

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

Sorry but you obviously are seeing what you want to see, he does not 'Kick' dogs but touches them with his foot, this snaps them out of the aggressive mentality and gets them listening again. He works on the dogs own language, the way their hierarchy works, but hey if you think you have something better than Ceasar Milan bring it on ..................

I have seen footage of him using shock and prong collars which have since been removed from you tube, i wonder why??:rolleyes:
I also saw him choke a dog to near death which again has been removed from you tube so go figure....

I dont agree with his methods apart from insisting on dogs getting plenty of exercise.
People think he is this amazing trainer that has a "way" with dogs but all he is, is a bully and needs methods as mentioned above, prong/shock collars to help him get his way. If a trainer is any good they wont need to resort to this sort of equipment to get a dog to do something.

Believe what you want, but trust me, the programmes you see on the telly are all edited versions and dont show the real way he gets the dogs to do whatever he wants them to do.

The links which have since been removed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvr8tQhJY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvr8tQhJY4

This is the thread where i originally watched the videos:
http://www.topdog.ie/showthread.php?6286-Dr-Yin-s-Take-on-Dominance-and-Caesar-Millan&highlight=cesar+milan
If you read page 2 of that thread you will see where i replied after watching the video (supercooper is me). So the proof has been reomved but the reactions are clear from us how bad they were.

**Vai**

@ Whispered; As I tried to explain, its not rough. Unless its done with anger of frustration, then it is rough and cruel.

Im 99.8% in agreement with u (thats genetically how close dogs are to wolves ) and I agree that every dog owner should have his/her own way. If the CM way doesnt work for someone there are loads of other choices and different names put on different styles of training. Personally, parts of it work for me, mainly the parts about controlling yourself, nevermind the dog! Being calm assertive as CM puts it is the best advice for any dog owner, not that he has the copyright on that feeling

Anyone who is in tune with their dog will know the best way to train that particular dog but its no harm to pick up tips from these tv trainers.

trio

Someone bought me a CM book and I couldn't understand it. It's all based on the vibe you give your dogs. Calm, Assertive. It was just really hard to follow, tbh.

According to him, if you're exuding the right vibe then you the dog's behaviour should change because of it. BULL! I tried. Dog just keeps on ignoring you.

Other than the vibe stuff, it's all holding down the dog by the neck and stuff like that, which worried me. You're supposed to do that when you can't get the dog to obey by any other means. But at that stage you're dealing with a highly agitated dog - why would he recommend I put my hand on his neck and force him to the ground? I'd get bitten!

So I bought VS's book and it helped a lot. She's just very practical. And yeah, it's reward based, but you know what? It works! And once the dog's got it, you can phase out the rewards most of the time and it still works pretty good. And you haven't had to touch the dog at any stage. It's just safer.

GirlFridayEire

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

i'd like to see this footage...seeing as he is against shock and prong collars...

he's rehabilitating dogs. he's does this with problem dogs. a dog doesnt want to be dominant. thats why he takes control. it takes alot of pressure off them. its not being a bully. its being in charge. he has the respect of 40 dogs on one walk. hats off to him.

Dead Right Pitbull Fanatic - Cesar is the first person to actually address the issue of the owner and how their energy is impacting their dog. I have learned more from this guy than anyone else out there - his use of energy and assertiveness is a lesson for everyone in more than just dog training - it's applicable to all areas of life. I have never seen him get aggressive with a dog only assertive - maybe people should learn the difference !

Cesar has taken many dogs from kill shelters to show how they can be rehabilitated - he has helped dogs that no-one else could and I think that speaks for itself - especially pit bulls which are lovely dogs in the right hands - and that doesn't just mean thugs but anyone who doesn't know how to read the body language and situation !

Victoria Stillwell has her methods and she is making a positive impact on dog training too - at the end of the day anyone that helps to educate people to realise that
a) Dogs need exercise regularly
b) they need training they don't come pre-trained
c) that a dog is a commitment for life

These people are all worthy of the recognition they get and trying to pitch one over the other is unhelpful at the least.

Right rant over !!

Whispered

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

maybe people should learn the difference !

You mean that you believe the AVSAB needs to do some more research?

Did you read the reasons I quoted as to why dominance based training is flawed? I'd be interested in your comments on them.

GirlFridayEire

Yup I do believe there needs to be more research from all quarters - however what Cesar and Victoria and others have done is help owners make some head way with training which is all helpful. And since using Cesars so called 'DOMINANT' training - occassionally at best there is no fighting between my dogs or with any other dog they meet. They will do as they are told but are not robots. They live a happy life but know that I am the boss - I have never had to hit them or anything like that and they are very well adjusted dogs.
Maybe you could put some helpful training advice on here instead of just dissing CM !

caseyann

Huge fan of his.His attitude all dogs are savable is amazing.And wont put a dog down.
One of my most recent favorites i watched was the dog who had so many issues.And he is now a sniffer dog.
That dog was on the cards with everyone else to be put down.

Whispered

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

Maybe you could put some helpful training advice on here instead of just dissing CM !

Can you explain what you mean by this? You want me to put training advice on where exactly? This thread, or this forum in general? Because this thread is about CM and opinions on him.

Do you have a problem with me expressing my opinion (backed up with quotes from various professional bodies) on a thread about CM? How about you give your opinion on what has been said intsead of trying to cast doubt on my ability to have an opinion on a topic.

sollar

My biggest problem with the cesear milan show is that many stupid dog owners out there will try his methods without having the knowledge or skill to do so properly. I would have to feel sorry for those poor dogs.

andreac

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

Yup I do believe there needs to be more research from all quarters - however what Cesar and Victoria and others have done is help owners make some head way with training which is all helpful. And since using Cesars so called 'DOMINANT' training - occassionally at best there is no fighting between my dogs or with any other dog they meet. They will do as they are told but are not robots. They live a happy life but know that I am the boss - I have never had to hit them or anything like that and they are very well adjusted dogs.
Maybe you could put some helpful training advice on here instead of just dissing CM !

In case you didnt know, this thread is about liking/not like Cesar Milan so why would someone post training advice in it??

Also, for your information, Whispered is a regular contributor to the animal forum with a lot of advice on training, handling and so on with dogs so if you read a few of the threads on here you would see that.

kylith

It's good that he emphasises exercise and boundries, but I dislike his methods; choking, poking, Alpha rolling. One day someone, or CM himself, will try them on the wrong dog and will wind up in a whole world of trouble.

My dogs do what I say because we have a relationship based on respect and trust. One of my dogs was abused before she wound up in rescue, if I started jabbing her when she did something wrong it would destroy the trust I've worked so hard to build up over the last 3 years.

boomerang

GirlFridayEire wrote: »

Sorry but you obviously are seeing what you want to see, he does not 'Kick' dogs but touches them with his foot

Don't agree with you there, actually, by "touching them with his foot" he actually sets the dog off into an explosive reaction, which he then quells through brute physical force.

Let someone "touch" your solar plexus with their shoe and see how that feels...

I'm not even going to start debunking the whole dominance/hierarchy myth that he espouses. People have debunked it thousands of times here and his fans just don't listen.

Shanao

I've been training dogs myself for a while now, and I have to say, I only watched a few episodes of his show and those have put me off him for good. I'm actually horrified by some of the stuff he does; its completely unneccesary and yes, it is cruel.
The ones that stick in my mind the most are the one where he forced a young st bernard to climb stairs (something that can do horrendous damage to a young giant breeds joints) and one where he put a shock collar on a dog to stop it from chasing cats.
In the one with the st bernard, he forced the dog up the stairs by dragging it up simply because its owners wanted him upstairs? Why didn't he simply advise them against this because of the high risk of conditions like osteonchondritis occuring? For someone who loves dogs, this was an incredibly stupid thing to do and he should have educated the owners instead of causing potential harm to the dog.
In regards to the one with the shock collar- he put a cat into a crate (Btw gotta ask, just cos he 'loves' dogs, does that mean that he can torment other animals because the poor cat was extremely stressed out), then he let the dog approach the crate and when it barked or growled, he shocked it with the collar. Okay, so i can understand the negative association but did he have to make both a dog and cat suffer just so he can look good? There was a much more humane way of doing this.

Dont even get me started on his 'flooding' method. That's the most idiotic thing anyone could possibly do!!

Sorry to all his fans, but no one can convince me that his methods are good.

I'm also just going to ask; how many dog owners, even board members alone, have found themselves absolutely infuriated by some jackass invited into their own home attempting to copy Cesar's methods with their dog? I know I have, and he was kicked out of the house quite quickly.

lrushe

Pro's

• Get people off their backsides to excerise their dogs.
• Treats a dog like a dog not a furry human.
• Uses dogs to help dogs.
• Tries to improves the image of Pits and Rotts.

Con's

• Makes people think they can treat aggressive dogs themselves.
• Dog training has become more about money than dogs to him now (my opinion)
• Over stimulating a fearful dog with what they are afraid of.
• Alpha rolling dogs.

I don't agree entirely with any one dog trainer I've ever seen on TV, they all have their faults. If you are having trouble with your dog or you're not entirely sure how you should go about raising your dog correctly go see an accredited dog trainer / behaviourist in person and get a program tailored to your dog and your set of circumstances, don't copy a program set out for a different dog which is edited over a half hour of TV and expect it to have the same effect on your dog.
If you like watching CM that's fine, just take him (and all dog trainers on TV) as just what he is, entertainment. You wouldn't watch a DIY programme on TV and try to re-wire your house yourself so your dog should be no different imo.

Cherry Blossom

Shanao wrote: »

I'm also just going to ask; how many dog owners, even board members alone, have found themselves absolutely infuriated by some jackass invited into their own home attempting to copy Cesar's methods with their dog? I know I have, and he was kicked out of the house quite quickly.

*Puts hand up* Was even told that I need to learn to bring that dog up properly and put manners in her (7 month old pup). She's the only terrier I've ever met that lets 4 young kids hang off her. This from a person who dumped a puppy-farmed lab with serious problems on us in the guise of a 'present' because he decided he wanted a boxer after all :rolleyes:

Cherry Blossom

Just as an aside, exactly what qualifications does CM have as a dog-trainer?

tk123

Shanao wrote: »

I'm also just going to ask; how many dog owners, even board members alone, have found themselves absolutely infuriated by some jackass invited into their own home attempting to copy Cesar's methods with their dog? I know I have, and he was kicked out of the house quite quickly.

Yep - I had a tool alpha roll my then 4 month old retriever in my house when he was still learning not to jump up on people. He's still wary of men 16 months on :mad:
Today he did a stay for 10 mins in the park with other dogs and even a puppy walking by, on wed his fav person in the park was down the other end of the field when we were practicing our obedience and he waited to be released from his 'wait' before going down to see her, he tried to play with a stuffed GSD that was acting as a distraction today when he was in class doing recall work :pac: and then left his new friend to come back to me when I called him. He learned it all with +R training and patience - no 'biting' him with my hand or making psssst sounds or bullying or dominating him.

Discodog

If the justification for CM's methods is a comparisons with Wolves then he is wrong - yet again. Wolf packs do not rely on aggression to any great degree. They are social groups that are totally dependant on each other. Aggression just risks injury which could prejudice the pack. CM has latched onto the whole dominance, leader crap & ignored the other aspects of Wolf behaviour.

Incidentally one of my pack displays classic Wolf behaviour in that she sees herself as the mediator. In a Wolf pack one Wolf has the specific job of breaking up any arguments before they cause any harm. Sometimes if I am playing with my youngster & I play growl, the older dog will put herself between me & the youngster. She knows that it's a game but clearly some trait kicks in.

This sums up CM to me - warning it's hilarious but with strong language:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXuj3Kss9c4

Whispered

Shanao wrote: »

I'm also just going to ask; how many dog owners, even board members alone, have found themselves absolutely infuriated by some jackass invited into their own home attempting to copy Cesar's methods with their dog? I know I have, and he was kicked out of the house quite quickly.

Me too; I came down the stairs to find a drunken man attempting to subdue Harley with an alpha roll. There were a nice few rows that night. especially considering it wasn't the first time I'd had words with him about how he treats my dog.

Yes he's a big sloppy dope, but there isn't a dominant bone in his body. What I saw was bullying pure and simple and it's stayed with me and effected my relationship with the person involved.

Discodog

Whispered wrote: »

Me too; I came down the stairs to find a drunken man attempting to subdue Harley with an alpha roll. There were a nice few rows that night. especially considering it wasn't the first time I'd had words with him about how he treats my dog.

Was he a burglar ? - or just a male visitor . Do you usually come downstairs to find drunks in the house - if so can you PM your address

To avoid going off topic see the chill out thread !.

EGAR

To compare dog to wolf behaviour is so out dated it isn't even funny anymore. There are literally worlds between dogs and wolves.

CM took old fashioned methods wrapped them up in mumbo jumbo and presented them to the world as his own home grown methods.

I could not and still can't see the attraction his methods hold to people.

If you want to train a dog then use your brain not a chain. Brute force, physical intimidation, bully boy practises etc pp. Anyone who understand the tiniest bit about canine body language should watch these videos with the sound turn off.
And it should soon become clear who the aggressor is. CM has been bitten so often in his *career* - that alone is testament as his inability. He breaks dogs, he doesn't train them.

He is a showman, pure and simple, unfortunately for the dogs..

LucyBliss

Discodog wrote: »

Incidentally one of my pack displays classic Wolf behaviour in that she sees herself as the mediator. In a Wolf pack one Wolf has the specific job of breaking up any arguments before they cause any harm. Sometimes if I am playing with my youngster & I play growl, the older dog will put herself between me & the youngster. She knows that it's a game but clearly some trait kicks in.

That's fascinating. I love hearing things like that.

Whispered

EGAR wrote: »

If you want to train a dog then use your brain not a chain.

I want this on a car sticker!

Daisy!

Oh I have no time for Caesar. He disgusts me to be honest and I know people who went to his live show in Dublin and said it was the biggest waste of time. Rip off. He's a money maker that got lucky.

Victoria on the other hand I like, I like her methods, she's much better. I wouldn't let Caesar near my dog!

EGAR

I have a big problem with the *guru* status given to some trainers, be it with horses or dogs etc. Not all dogs alike and what works for one fails for the other. It is ok to take cues, but PLEASE find what is more beneficial for your dog and stop following one person religiously. There is a vast amount of info out there, a vast amount of reward based training methods. You as the owner have to put in the work to find what works for your dog. Dogs are not machines, they do not have an on or off button and are not all the same.

I would recommend for any dog owner a guide to canine body language. It is vitally important to understand properly what your dog is trying to tell you via body language. And you can build on that every day.

EGAR

A book on that subject that I can highly recommend for the interested party:

"Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide: Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog by Brenda Aloff"

Edited to add Roger Abrantes' *Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior*

The latter has in depth chapters on all sorts of dog behavior explained in an easy to understand manner. I love that book and it should become a must for each dog owner