Moderation of trans issue and terms

Ash.J.Williams

Can ya not just report users like the rest of us?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500655#Comment_123500655

Everyone can report everything. However, this thread seems to be about what level of transphobia should be permitted on boards.

At the moment:

Misgendering someone = not permitted

Saying transwoman are male = permitted

Saying Transpeople shouldn't be allowed use their gender changing rooms = permitted

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500734#Comment_123500734

I see you've changed the subject from the actual topic that led to this thread, ie whether violent trans women (biological males, since it seems that's still not clear to everyone) should be sent to women's prisons, to a question about changing rooms, which was not the thread topic.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500742#Comment_123500742

Huh? Do you know what thread you're on? Or are you subscribed to all the anti-trans threads? We're here to discuss moderation of trans issues on boards.

This is the OP:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490183#Comment_123490183

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500752#Comment_123500752

Yeah that's right. It was after a discussion in the thread specifically about trans women being sent to women's prisons where Ezeoul asked people not to use certain words like biological that this thread was opened, to discuss a point that was off topic on the other thread. I'm fairly sure you posted in that thread too - did you miss all that?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500766#Comment_123500766

OK so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500734#Comment_123500734

What part of that are you refuting?

Or do you want me to add:

Saying transpeople should be imprisoned according to their sex, not gender = permitted?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500769#Comment_123500769

Given that the only trans person who posted on that thread did so to say that transwomen should not be in female prisons, that's hardly transphobic, is it?

For instance here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123487457#Comment_123487457

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500766#Comment_123500766

I came back just to clear something up.

You are what is called in literature, "a very unreliable narrator", @Volchitsa.

I did not ask anyone, "not to use certain words" e.g. biological. What I did was draw attention to some terms that are considered derogatory towards trans people and explained exactly why. It was another poster, a trans woman, who actually asked another poster not to use certain words because they found them offensive.

Also, my original post (now its own thread) was not made because of any one single thread in CA. It was started because of an accumulation of the same type of posting that I've seen across multiple threads on CA. I hit my limit with it, and decided to say something about it to the mod / admin team via Feedback.

To @Ash.J.Williams - if reporting alone resolved the issue, there would have been no need for my original post. As I mentioned in my original post, @Beasty used to be reliable at dealing with this. However he does not seem to be actively modding now. If you read back, you'll see other posters who've said they have reported things they've seen and confirm no action was taken.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500873#Comment_123500873

Seems to me you did pretty much exactly that:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496331#Comment_123496331

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123487551#Comment_123487551

And then opened this thread to ask the moderators to enforce your wishes, since you realise you can't actually do it yourself:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490183#Comment_123490183

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498776#Comment_123498776

Offence is taken, not given. Some people are offended by coarse language. Others by homosexuality. Some people by rap music. Should we ban everything??

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500734#Comment_123500734

Its not that terrible that people born biologically male or female are referred to as such, in what world should we forsake scientific fact, medical fact and good old common sense to placate a few that believe they aren't what they were born.

Anyone can think they're what they want to be, whichever pronouns or gender they want to be known as is fine with me and if john wants to be known as johanna that's what I'll call him but the vast majority just don't agree with going against medical and scientific fact.

I have nothing against trans identifying people but when you feel to compel me to believe what you believe then that's where the problems start

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500914#Comment_123500914

No, I "pretty much" did no such thing. And the examples you yourself provided (from another thread, and without full context) prove that.

Nowhere did I either "ask" or "tell" anyone what words to use, which is what you accused me of doing. I offered explanations of why some terms are offensive to trans people.

This is not the first time you have misrepresented me on this thread, assumed what you thought was my opinion, (and then offered it as fact to another poster) and have attributed things to me that I never said or did. And I somehow doubt it will be the last time.

I also did not start a thread to ask the moderators "to enforce my wishes". Pure hyperbole.

In the end, the proof is there for all to read, and your unreliable narration is only discrediting yourself.

nachouser

I'd suggest it should be a house style of the site to suggest that posters use the terms trans male / trans man / trans female / trans woman. If certain posters choose to not use those terms for whatever reason, then so be it.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500965#Comment_123500965

A lot of people didn't want to believe that the Earth orbited the Sun, but here we are. We're in early days still, but brainscans of trans woman have shown they are closer to female brains than male brains. I do think one day, that you will be able to scan someone's brain to see what gender they are. Which will open up a whole new can of worms, no doubt.

I have nothing against trans identifying people

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498854#Comment_123498854

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498783#Comment_123498783

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498446#Comment_123498446

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498401#Comment_123498401

Sure Jan.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490183#Comment_123490183

Can you give a few examples of what words should be censored?

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501022#Comment_123501022

Debunked years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/meet-the-neuroscientist-shattering-the-myth-of-the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501022#Comment_123501022

A lot of people didn't want to believe that the Earth orbited the Sun, but here we are. 

Funny you should put it like that 🤔

Rippon is also opposed to the "continued emphasis on 'essentialist', brain-based explanations in both public communication of, and research into, many forms of gender imbalance." When asked for a comparable "watershed" moment in science to compare her findings to, Rippon responded "the idea of the Earth circling around the sun".

Rippon states that "I do think there are sex differences in the brain; there are bound to be, with respect to different roles in the reproductive process". She expanded that, when discussing brain differences, "there are sex differences that we should pay attention to, but the power that’s attributed to biology is what needs challenging".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Rippon

TikTok was way ahead of me 😁

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501022#Comment_123501022

Will a scan get rid of the balls between their legs or the boobs on their chest, soke people have to play the hand their dealt, that doesn't mean it should affect anyone else

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500979#Comment_123500979

I don't at all mind doing it, and indeed I often use trans man/woman myself. I definitely don't want it to be obligatory though, because as I've explained before, there are times when the biological sex of the person does matter. And very often the gender doesn't. People get confused, and if you can't be clear in your language when that's necessary, then it makes other people even more confused.

The other thing is, I don't understand what you mean by trans female: until about 5 minutes ago, everybody agreed that nobody changed sex, only gender, so that female could mean a different thing from woman. I don't know if you're using trans female and trans woman as synonyms, or if you mean transidentifying female, ie trans man?

This is what I mean about needing clear language: if nobody knows what other people even mean, there's no common ground at all.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500968#Comment_123500968

LOL I quoted them because they show that you did what I said you did.

And the reason I quoted "from another thread" (full posts, with links, so anyone can see what the context was if they wish to) was because that's exactly what I said you'd done in the post you were replying to.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501035#Comment_123501035

Well now.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

Like I said earlier:

We're in early days still, but brainscans of trans woman have shown they are closer to female brains than male brains.

That was published in March 2022 (3 years after it was allegedly "debunked"). Science has this super annoying thing of never accepting something as a final answer, and researchers, annoyingly to some, keep researching.

And to quote the paper,

Future studies may further contribute to this field of research by replicating the current findings using continuous multivariate classifiers in independent samples. Ideally, those samples will be larger in size and include both transgender women and transgender men. Moreover, given that sexual orientation has been reported to affect brain anatomy [20,61,62,63,64,65,66], future studies might consider stratifying their transgender group(s), as well as their cisgender groups according to whether people are attracted to men, women, or both.

So as I say, Early days.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501249#Comment_123501249

There’s a persistent problem with these types of studies -

For this purpose, we analyzed a sample of 24 cisgender men, 24 cisgender women, and 24 transgender women before gender-affirming hormone therapy.

The sample size is too small to be considered representative of anything,

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501265#Comment_123501265

To quote the article again, as I knew someone would say that.

Future studies may further contribute to this field of research by replicating the current findings using continuous multivariate classifiers in independent samples. Ideally, those samples will be larger in size and include both transgender women and transgender men. Moreover, given that sexual orientation has been reported to affect brain anatomy [20,61,62,63,64,65,66], future studies might consider stratifying their transgender group(s), as well as their cisgender groups according to whether people are attracted to men, women, or both.

As I say, early days

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501267#Comment_123501267

You said this earlier too -

A lot of people didn't want to believe that the Earth orbited the Sun, but here we are.

The study you presented isn’t presenting anything that hasn’t been demonstrated in the last 40 years of developments in MRI research and technology. It’s not your study that’s early days, it’s the research which proposes it’s opposite hypothesis is in it’s early days and contradicts previously accepted theories.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501093#Comment_123501093

You see folks, this might explain to some why it is that I don't waste energy engaging on these threads, and why I don't answer questions.

Because there will always be posters who are so desperate to be "right", that they will lie and misrepresent and are simply incapable of posting in good faith.

I have no time for posters who behave in such a dishonest manner, and ultimately (imo) it is pointless trying to engage with them in any kind of meaningful way.

Now, back to my weekend.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500873#Comment_123500873

I did not ask anyone, "not to use certain words" e.g. biological. What I did was draw attention to some terms that are considered derogatory towards trans people and explained exactly why. It was another poster, a trans woman, who actually asked another poster not to use certain words because they found them offensive.

Forgive my ignorance on the detail of this as I don't follow any of the trans threads, I'm not particularly exercised by the subject one way or the other, but I do care about the modding of all issues on boards.

So I just wondered if the trans poster in question (or any other trans poster) was ever specifically targetted with transphobic comments? That would seem totally against current rules of don't be a dick/uncivil etc and I assume it would be modded accordingly? I'd be very surprised to hear if it had not.

But if posters are dealing in generalisations about gender identity and related issues that some deem inexcusably offensive and others deem inarguable fact, then surely that should be left well alone as it is what makes for differing opinions and hence discussion on a discussion forum?

Why try to kill any discussion on the subject?

If you actively try to have the subject modded to death, you'll end up with a scenario like other threads where everything is off limits, and a trans poster will be banned for saying "I'm trans, here's my perspective" because that is anecdotal. Or I'm a woman. Or a man. Etc etc.

And that's plainly ridiculous.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501303#Comment_123501303

I gave up on the trans bashing threads ages ago too. There's some people who will never change their mind, and never realise how transphobic they're being, and how upsetting it would be for trans individuals to read their posts.

Like this awful example,

"Will a scan get rid of the balls between their legs or the boobs on their chest, soke people have to play the hand their dealt, that doesn't mean it should affect anyone else"

Yet there's people that claim that boards.ie is a welcoming place for trans individuals. LOL

dulpit

An observation about how boards has changed massively for the worse: this is a feedback thread about how trans issues are moderated. Most of this thread has turned into a debate about transgenderism rather than a debate about how it's moderated. And no mod has stepped in to nudge this back in the right direction...

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501339#Comment_123501339

Hopefully, this is the final time I am going to have to repeat myself on this. So let me be very clear.

• I have never tried to kill discussion on the topic.
• I have never tried to tell anyone what they have to believe or attempted to disabuse them of their existing beliefs.
• I have never tried to tell anyone what words they could not use.
• I have not offered any opinion on transgender people in prison spaces, sports, or changing rooms, etc.

Boards.ie already has a required standard of posting which includes being respectful towards trans people and not "being a dick". (I posted a screenshot of it upthread). The issue is those standards are regularly ignored by posters, and reports of same do not seem to be actioned on by the current mod team.

That is what lead to my original post, which was made on the "very quiet in here" feedback thread, and was addressed towards the CA mods and the Admin team. I suggested word filters as a possible solution, in exactly the same way filters are already applied to offensive terms on Boards.ie such as the N word and the C word. They would not be blocked, but would appear as *****, minimising the risk of potential offence.

One of the CA mods (@Irish Aris) did respond on that thread, and confirmed the mods would look into it - which is all I asked for. I did not demand they do anything more than that or enforce my rules.

One of the Feedback thread mods (I believe it was @Spear) then decided to separate 135 posts out of the "very quiet in here" thread into this new thread, beginning with my original post.

And that is it, in a nutshell.

As to the trans woman who posts on Boards, I am not going to speak to their full experience on Boards, because I don't know it - and I'm not about to make something up about it. (That is not how I roll).

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501426#Comment_123501426

This is a thread based on the idea that boards is a raging hotbed of aggressive anti trans rhetoric.

In reality some phrases that MIGHT cause offence to SOME trans people are being put forward as evidence of this site being a hellscape of intolerance.

This is a view heing pushed by a small group of posters who despite not being trans themselves, are taking offence on the behalf of others.

Nobody here is calling for a situation where abuse of trans people should be tolerated.

Merely, it is being observed that a small but extremely vocal minority wish to impose a level of censorship on anyone who wishes to express even a mild opinion on the trans topic that doesn't align perfectly with their opinions.

We're essentially looking at a situation where boards has its internal policies dictated by the opinions put forward by activists and lobby groups, which is a quick fire means of destroying the site going forward.