Moderation of trans issue and terms

suvigirl · 30-05-2025 10:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498960#Comment_123498960

He, is a trans man.

Yvonne007 · 30-05-2025 10:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499121#Comment_123499121

I think the poster was referring to the fabled "prison" forum that I see people talking about with nostalgic glee.

I disagree with the assertion that boards isn't a welcoming place for trans people. I think it is. It's a discussion forum not a safe space. If real discussion of biological reality and sex based privacy is "not welcoming" then fine, don't engage. You are welcome, but you choose not to.

There's also a dedicated forum for LGBT people.

It seems that the only way that it could be possibly welcoming, is if we all just accept that transwomen are exactly the same as women and transmen are exactly the same as men. And that is just not true and it wouldn't be a discussion.

Ezeoul · 30-05-2025 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499091#Comment_123499091

I edited it to what I thought was a better way of putting it, as I specifically didn't want to infer that I thought anyone was ignorant as that holds a negative connotation. Un-informed sounded better to me, dare I say it, more respectful.

Problem?

Yet interestingly, you jumped straight to using "ignoramuses"!

But, I am going to repeat myself again, so bear with me.

The reason I did not respond to posters asking me for explanations or clarifications on terms used, and won't engage on it, is because I would then be (a) accused of telling people want I want them to say (b) accused of telling people what I want them to believe, © choosing and pushing a specific link for "an angle"….

All of which has happened on this thread already. So no, not doing it. There is another phrase that covers it.

"Do your own research".

Yvonne007 · 30-05-2025 10:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499213#Comment_123499213

He is a biological female. Thats what a transman is. No offence was intended.

You used the word male and I was under the impression that male and female relates to sex, and man and women are gender indicators. I could easily be wrong.

Yvonne007 · 30-05-2025 10:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499173#Comment_123499173

That is my whole point. Pointing out biological facts is not transphobic and it was not done with any malice.

volchitsa · 30-05-2025 10:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499121#Comment_123499121

Oh right. I didn't know that's what you meant. My mistake. There used to be a forum section called the Prison forum - I thought you meant that.

But it seems a bit odd if one poster is saying trans people don't feel able to post on boards, while another is saying trans people are posting on here. Which is it?

And actually what that poster said was a lot less categorical than that - as I recall they said that non operated trans women should not be in female prisons. Which presumably means they don't think they are women. Anyway, if they're interested in the language aspect, they really should come on here where it's being discussed, not over there where it's off topic.

taxAHcruel · 30-05-2025 10:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499222#Comment_123499222

So you came to the feedback thread (which has now become it's own thread which I recognize may not have been your original intention) with the request that "can I suggest that some filters be applied to (*****) transphobic language" but you can not / will not for whatever reason lay out what exactly that request should constitute and that the moderation/admin team should just "Do their own research"?

I have given 5 reasons already why I think the request is a bad one and should just be rejected. But I would add a 6th. The request laid out that way from you simply can not be taken seriously. It is so vague as to be the linguistic equivalent of asking us all to grab a fist full of fog. There is nothing in the request that is actionable for the moderation team.

Basically all it boils down to is shaking one's fist at clouds. It seems from the outside looking in that you just have a (likely well meant and heart in the right place) vague feeling Boards is a hostile environment to Trans people - and you just wish that SOMEONE around here SOMEWHERE would just do SOMETHING to improve that and alleviate this discomfort for you/them.

As well meaning as you might be though - without any actual substance to your request I do not envy the Mods job in mediating on it. I hope for all the reasons I have already laid out they simply say something like "Thank you for your request and your wish to help us improve this site for the community as a whole but at this time we see nothing actionable in your request and have closed the ticket on our side".

DeadHand · 30-05-2025 10:43AM

This thread is a strange read.

You essentially have progressivist men (new priests?) telling women how they should think, speak and feel. That their opinions are silly and sinful. Their feelings are problematic and need changing. Through some moral and intellectual failings, they are misinterpreting their lived experiences, or outright lying about them.

These women require re-eduction and guidance, presumably from the progressivist men or people similarly enlightened, in order to be better, acceptable people.

It's as though the the mid 20th century Catholic Church has somehow returned wrapped in a rainbow flag.

In place of "fallen women" we now have "TERFS".

The end result is the same: women silenced and instructed by, for the most part, ideologically driven men.

It does not sit right with me.

aero2k · 30-05-2025 10:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499222#Comment_123499222

Thanks for the clarification of your edit. I was replying to the pre-edit version of your post. I've since googled "ignoramus" and it seems to be exclusively used as an insult. I often use it to describe myself - I used it in a self-deprecating sense on the post. I'll leave it there rather than edit it.

It feels a bit strange to be told "do your own research" when the post of mine demonstrates that I did exactly that, by reading the link you posted, at least twice.

I am confused though - you seem to get very upset by the language some people use, especially when it's factually correct. You don't want to tell people what to say, but you started and continued a discussion with the stated aim of recruiting the mods to tell other people what to say, or not to say. I don't think I've seen an example of you telling people what to believe, though you seem to be deeply troubled when confronted by opinions and/or beliefs that contradict your worldview - I think you used the phrase "stomach-churning" elsewhere.

Edit: My imprecise use of the word "ignoramus" confirms my status - perhaps one might say I identify as an ignoramus. Sadly not my first, and probably not my last self incriminating post😀.

suvigirl · 30-05-2025 10:53AM

There absolutely was offence intended. I posted about a family member who is a trans man. You then went out of your way, with noone asking you, to point out he is biologically female. For no reason other then to cause offence and arguments.

Yvonne007 · 30-05-2025 10:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499304#Comment_123499304

I'm sorry you feel like that. I have been quite respectful and absolutely did not intend to cause offence.

You mentioned he was male. I was under the impression that male related to biological sex and not gender. I may be wrong but that was my genuine belief. These words can change on a whim and I apologise if it came across as curt.

Necro · 30-05-2025 10:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498927#Comment_123498927

I tend to use the phrase uncivil when actioning a post that's effectively "being a dick" as, sure as night as day we get accused of abuse if using that terminology. Just last week a poster claimed I was bullying them for actioning a post for "being a dick".

So whatever we do as mods, again - sure as night is day someone, somewhere will have an issue with it.

I 100% agree with you on the showing respect to other users though, to attempt to make some sort of response to the pages of discussion on this issue.

It's a complex issue and we can see that a lot of people have varying views on what constitutes transphobia. Without getting specific due to the volume of posts on the matter, some I agree with, some I think are flat out ridiculous.

What I will say from a forum mod perspective, I would hope that people treat other users with the respect that they would like afforded to them, it's a simple enough thing to do. That's how I'll be continuing to moderate this issue until I am advised differently.

As a more general point I find sometimes, especially nowadays with how online discussion has gone posters are far too concerned with "being right" and not taking into account that there may be people posting or indeed reading that are struggling with their own identity and blanket statements (however factual based they may or may not be) do not take that into account. I don't really have an issue with posters airing these views per se, as long as they do so respectfully which is definitely not always the case, as can easily be referenced in this very thread.

In relation to the post that began this I believe it was actually made with these points in mind but the discussion has no longer become feedback and basically is now a battleground for opposing sides to have a go at each other again (a lot of this would absolutely not be tolerated in CA fwiw).

suvigirl · 30-05-2025 11:00AM

He

Is a trans man. I never mentioned male. There was no need to bring up biological woman, you did it to cause offence and arguments

Yvonne007 · 30-05-2025 11:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499320#Comment_123499320

I for one would like to apologise for my post to @Suvigirl which on re-reading it, does come across as needlessly argumentative. It was genuinely not intended that way.

But barring one or two posts from various posters, this has been a remarkably civil conversation.

aero2k · 30-05-2025 11:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499304#Comment_123499304

That begs the question: is stating facts offensive? I mean if some one walked up to @Cordell , or myself for that matter, and said "you're bald" it might not be the kindest thing, but if someone was describing us it would be strange to mention height etc and omit the baldness on the grounds that we might be offended.

aero2k · 30-05-2025 11:07AM

@Ezeoul: Actually I need to thank you for helping make me less of an ignoramus. I has always thought that the doxxing, death threats, "punch a terf" rallying cries, noisy disruption of meetings and physical assaults on gender critical or women's rights campaigners was all down to the perpetrators being despicable people, but I've just read 4 (c) from your link again:

We don’t dispute that it’s best to respond calmly to transphobia, however many transphobes continually aim to anger trans people to provoke trans people into a reaction that is used against trans people in the media. This is often called “Provoke and Publicise”, and was a technique employed by anti-desegregationisists in Southern states in the US in the 50s and 60s. The symbolism of this is significant.

and now I see that all this horribleness is because of transphobes. It takes victim-blaming to new heights indeed - consider me educated.

baxterooneydoody · 30-05-2025 11:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499187#Comment_123499187

That's not answering the question l, would they pass for a man fully naked

Yvonne007 · 30-05-2025 11:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499332#Comment_123499332

I have already apologised for any offence taken, but your post that I responded to said

"Really? My family member is male, has a beard, muscles, hairy chest, there is not one characteristic that you would see if he walked into a female changing room in his swim shorts that would make anyone think he is a trans man."

This is where the confusion started.

Again, I know it came across as argumentative, especially if you had mistaken the fact that you used the word male, but I hope this clarifies why I said it.

Again, I have already apologised for coming across as argumentative and won't refer to this specific matter again.

Flaneur OBrien · 30-05-2025 11:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499261#Comment_123499261

Theres not enough eye rolls in the world for this post

eightieschewbaccy · 30-05-2025 11:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499405#Comment_123499405

Honestly based on your statements to date, I'd be pretty concerned about being in the same changing room as you. Are you physically inspecting people or what, cause that's pretty creepy...

Ezeoul · 30-05-2025 11:26AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499253#Comment_123499253

With respect, I am not going to keep reading your walls of text and I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

It adds nothing new to the discussion.

Thanks.

Flaneur OBrien · 30-05-2025 11:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499317#Comment_123499317

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498960#Comment_123498960

If you think that was respectful, you have no idea how to respect trans individuals.

taxAHcruel · 30-05-2025 11:31AM

Ezeoul 12:26 pm

With respect, I am not going to keep reading your walls of text and I'm not going to keep repeating myself.
Thanks.

No one is saying you should or have to? By all means duck out any time you like. You're the one who chooses to reply to my posts or not. You will be the one who chooses to reply to THIS one I suspect.

But if you think 4 paragraphs are a "wall of text" then I think it shows just how invested you ACTUALLY are in the topic YOU started. I am sorry complex social issues can not usefully be distilled down to the length of a tweet by people who actually take your topic seriously on your behalf.

The level of thought and text and nuance I am pouring into it is a mark of the respect I take your thread and request at. I am not just throwing one liner throw away crap like "There is not enough eye rolls in the world for your post" at you to dismiss you without engaging like some people do before they presume to lecture others on how to show "respect". If you do not want to return that in kind - that is entirely ok with me. No interest in forcing you. But I fear I am more invested in your topic than you yourself are.

One more attempt to keep the thread on topic though - has anyone found any arguments which have not already been rebutted for why or more importantly even HOW we might carry the motion?

Yvonne007 · 30-05-2025 11:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499444#Comment_123499444

Stating facts is not disrespectful, however in this case, it did come across as argumentative. I have apologised for that.

Ezeoul · 30-05-2025 11:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499463#Comment_123499463

Then I'd appreciate if you didn't quote my whole posts directly, as it gives the impression that you are seeking a response from me.

I would have thought that was universally understood on Boards.

Thanks again.

Ten of Swords · 30-05-2025 11:43AM

@Yvonne007

I disagree with the assertion that boards isn't a welcoming place for trans people. I think it is.

It's not

That has been repeatedly demonstrated time and again over many, many years. We had a trans moderator a few years ago, they left the site eventually too after trying to tough it out.