Moderation of trans issue and terms

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502299#Comment_123502299

Yer easily disgusted son. Im describing them based solely on their contributions to this site. There are hundreds of people, probably thousands, that have posted on boards over the years that have varying degrees of mental health issues and none of them behaved like that individual. But kudos for getting offended on their behalf, I'm sure they are very pleased with you.👍

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502201#Comment_123502201

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499513#Comment_123499513

"We had a trans moderator a few years ago, they left the site eventually too after trying to tough it out."

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502314#Comment_123502314

Example please?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502342#Comment_123502342

Calling anyone with mental issues a "mentalist" is repulsive.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502383#Comment_123502383

So you think they had to be one and the same?

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501950#Comment_123501950

Compelling other people to address you in your preferred manner, despite the fact that it conflicts with their beliefs, is in itself a contravention of basic manners.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502437#Comment_123502437

Not at all. I address priests by calling them 'father' even though I don't believe in God and think their beliefs are pure nonsense.

I don't believe in marriage, but I'll still address someone as Mrs whoever if that's what they wish.

I'm not sure under what type of circumstances I would ever refuse to address people they way they wish to be addressed, how would that ever happen?

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502437#Comment_123502437

…and by doing that, the person who beliefs are being conflicted are forcing their beliefs on others.

Why is it ok for one, but not for trans people?

==

On the moderation, we're now getting posters going after trans children. There has to be a line here somewhere, folks.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501920#Comment_123501920

For me…

For you, nothing's changed. Even biology, which is also based upon a belief system informed by culture, hasn't changed all that much really, it still promotes ideas which are as old as the ancient philosophers who first grappled with the idea of formalising philosophy and calling it science, to the inherent contradiction between Darwin's private behaviour and his public writings, because Darwin knew that if he published what he REALLY thought, not only would he not have become celebrated in Victorian high society for his echoing what they already knew to be true, he'd have been cancelled, and his opinions on evolution would never have seen the light of day, let alone had the influence they did on the field of biology.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502094#Comment_123502094

Try the founder of Mermaids, Susie Green

Dr David Bell, then medical director for the overall Tavistock and Portland Clinic

I'm not sure you could have picked worse examples if you'd actually tried. The founder of Mermaids, was not the Senior Clinical Psychiatrist at the Tavistock whose responsibilities included signing off on assessments which recommended further medical treatment for patients with severe gender dysphoria. I'll give you one guess who was… take as long as you like, and that was the same person who later became one of the Governors of the Tavistock, had a bit of a falling out with the Board, decided to air his dirty laundry in public and portrayed himself in the media as the hero in his own narrative.

I do agree with you though that there is the question of people being forced to fit into a particular stereotype, but that's normal for people who want the world to conform to their perception, as opposed to the idea that they might have to adjust what they had previously believed to be true. That goes back much further than John Money's attempts to suggest that people experiencing gender dysphoria could be modified to fit in with society's expectations rather than the attempt to create a society where those expectations didn't exist. His ideas of a separation between sex, sexual orientation and gender appealed to second-wave Feminists of the time like Simone De Beauvoir who took his ideas and ran with them to write what is one of the most famous books in Feminist philosophy. It has its issues. It's for this reason that I also pulled up Flaneur earlier when he produced yet another study as evidence of the idea of the sexed brain. Scientists, primarily men, have been touting that one since Aristotle, and the study provided by Flaneur is just a modern spin on the same old tripe - using technology to support their already held beliefs in the nature of sex and the brain. It's why Simon Cohen likes the idea (it stands to reason that he would, seeing as he came up with the idea of the extreme male brain theory of autism), and why he proceeds to rip on Gina Rippon who provides evidence that his ideas are just nonsense, not supported by scientific evidence. Gina Rippon is the embodiment of the kind of treatment of women in science and medicine that you're referring to in that she was deprived of opportunities as a result of popular beliefs about women's inferior capacity and their suitability to pursue scientific and medical pursuits. Ben Barres is another, but as you politely reminded me previously, the plural of anecdote is not data -

Here are a few examples of bias from my own life as a young woman. As an undergrad at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), I was the only person in a large class of nearly all men to solve a hard maths problem, only to be told by the professor that my boyfriend must have solved it for me. I was not given any credit. I am still disappointed about the prestigious fellowship competition I later lost to a male contemporary when I was a PhD student, even though the Harvard dean who had read both applications assured me that my application was much stronger (I had published six high-impact papers whereas my male competitor had published only one). Shortly after I changed sex, a faculty member was heard tosay “Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister’s.” Anecdotes, however, are not data, which is why gender-blinding studies are so important. These studies reveal that in many selection processes, the bar is unconsciously raised so high for women and minority candidates that few emerge as winners. For instance, one study found that women applying for a research grant needed to be 2.5 times more productive than men in order to be considered equally competent. Even for women lucky enough to obtain an academic job, gender biases can influence the relative resources allocated to faculty, as Nancy Hopkins discovered when she and a senior faculty committee studied this problem at MIT. The data were so convincing that MIT president Charles Vest publicly admitted that discrimination was responsible. For talented women, academia is all too often not a meritocracy.

De Beauvoir avoided similar comparisons to Sartre by explaining that because she was not a philosopher, she simply could not be a better philosopher than Sartre, even if her earlier academic results in the French education system would suggest otherwise, the credit would still go to Sartre. The cynic would suggest that her explanation was a rather convenient escape from her publicly stated position of women's contribution to their own oppression in society at the hands of men, an escape trick that would have made Houdini blush!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502193#Comment_123502193

And how can a moderator be "bullied" anyway? FFS they're moderators - it's like complaining about a sheepdog being bullied by the sheep (which can actually happen, I've seen it - but that's the point: such a dog can't be an effective sheepdog, and complaining about the bullying isn't the solution.)

And so to bring it back to Boards, and your question as to how a moderator can be bullied? The answer to that question is - easily, when they are not supported by the Owners and Admins of the site when they try to raise issues which are of concern to the current and future viability of the site. Instead of support, they receive condemnation for their efforts and posters are permitted free reign to carry on as before, no changes are required, and no changes will be made to the status quo. Rather than use the example of where it was requested that 'T' be added to the LGB forum as it was at the time (that furore went on for a good ten years, very much in the spirit of the seventies… if you know, you know), I'll give you a better example and one that was much more prevalent and of it's time, one that was actually rampant on Boards and one you can better relate to - sexism. Sexism was indeed so rampant on Boards that in spite of the efforts of numerous Moderators it continued unabated, as though Admins and Owners were not taking their concerns seriously and posters were permitted free reign. Eventually, the Community Managers (remember them?) pretty much decreed that those people who held those attitudes towards women were no longer welcome on the site. But it was too little too late as Boards had lost one of its best Admins who, to the best of my knowledge, has never returned to the site. That trickle effect has been what has led to the sites demise - not the technical issues or the availability of other platforms or any of the rest of it, just indifference from those in positions of authority to change the course of Boards, which has led to many of the 800 or so forums becoming dormant, some of the most popular of them once being hives of activity and discussion - TGC, TLL, A&A, LGBT, etc, etc. All dead, simply because people can't be arsed to put up with the kind of language which belittles and invalidates not just themselves, but other people and groups in society. Reporting posts is nothing more than bailing out the sea with a teaspoon.

BP_RS3813

If your getting personally offended by what some stranger says on the internet then you really shouldn't be on the internet in this day and age. Be annoyed? Sure but forcing people to use language they don't want to use is just wrong.

You have to be a mental headcase to get worked up over whats argued on boards.

"Offensive" or "repulsive" stuff (key issue here is these terms are subjective), so is "being a dick" was always around. Its just easier to see with more and more people having access to the internet.

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502471#Comment_123502471

The problem is, the crybabies who bang on about 'woke' or whatever imported American buzzwords are the very people who will clutch their pearls if someone dares to challenge them.

If you think it's those who believe in basic human decency and manners who are the offended ones, you are so very, very wrong.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501606#Comment_123501606

I don't see anyone trying to offend, I see 2 side of an argument. 1 side believes in science and the fact that people are born male or female.

The other side argues that certain terms and words are offensive and we should treat everyone who believes they are what they are as the opposite of the sex they were born.

Both sides, from what I can see on here have no problem with people believing what they want but the problem starts when one side tries to define what terms are offensive or not and if others should act and speak the way they're told

No amount of debate will ever make me believe that a male at birth will be a female in the future or vice versa. I'll call you whatever name you want to be called but I'll still know a man born a man will die a man no matter what terminology, drugs or surgery they have.

I have 2 children, i couldn't care less what they are, be they gay, straight, trans, whatever, what i know for absolute certainty is I have a boy and a girl and if they come to me with trans issues they'll get support and love but they'll still be a male and female.

Do what you want with your life but please don't think the vast majority of the people should tailor themselves to suit your ideology and beliefs. If you can't understand that and live your own life without it impacting ordinary people, then you're no better than religious zealots and dictators

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502518#Comment_123502518

I'll call you whatever name you want to be called

Surely that's the whole point of the thread? That posters refer to trans persons as they want to be referred to. You basically are the same as posters calling for transphobic language to be moderated

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502518#Comment_123502518

What you're saying is your kids would have your support, up to the point that challenges your beliefs.

That's not the support a trans kid needs. I've seen this first hand, with friends who had a trans boy. The mum was great about it. But it was a real challenge for my mate who had to change his beliefs to support his son.

And as for saying,

I don't see anyone trying to offend

Pull the other one. You've gone out of your way to offend many times, on this thread alone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501064#Comment_123501064

That's absolutely offensive. No one should be talked about that way.

Eoinbmw

The sooner this asteroid hits the better!

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502544#Comment_123502544

I'll call you Mary if you were born a Jeff, I won't call you a woman if youbwere born a man

SlowBlowin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501950#Comment_123501950

So if a religious person said you must believe in god and say he exists you would be happy to do that ?

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502553#Comment_123502553

Facts can't be offensive, apologies if this offends.

My children will have my full support of course, they just won't sway my beliefs that science overrules their feelings or beliefs.

I fully support a religious person's belief that they believe in God while I myself am an atheist, I won't challenge or want to challenge anyone's beliefs,

I'll leave their beliefs to their own privacy as I myself have and will continue to do so. Can you see where we can all get along even tho we all think differently while respecting that I fully support your right to call yourself whatever you wish while you support my right not to believe you can change your sex simply by saying so

Hamsterchops

It's the compelled nature of speech that is the Big issue, that I must disobey my ears, my eyes and my instinct to be instructed to call him she, even though it's bleeding obvious that he isn't.

There's even a term for this offence and for not complying with the linguistic rules of gender ideology. Misgendering being the word used to put a slur on those who do not comply with compelled speech.

Obey & accept what you are told to say, play by the rules according to gender ideology, or else ….

Yes, you may think the 6'2" bearded person in front of you with a wi**y is a man, but she is a woman, and has been a woman since last Tuesday, and you must now call her 'SHE', otherwise you will be accused of misgendering, for being a bigot, and a Transphobe, (excuses will not be tolerated).

As we can see, language & perception of reality is a very important part of this struggle, so if you can get me to call the fella with the beard her, then you've done your bit for the cause. It's the forcing of language, also the hijacking of perception (gaslighting) the reality that changes the meaning of words, so that he is she and she means he and that 'they or them' might mean whatever they identify as.

i do think though that we're in a better place on boards.ie than we were six months or a year ago, when you couldn't even state the dictionary definition of Woman without getting banned for a period of weeks, which is what happened to me last year.

PS, Nobody is born in the wrong body.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502685#Comment_123502685

For a start, it would be "their" God, presumably. There's many put there.

And no, because of religious freedom.

By equating religious belief to a trans persons gender you are implying to me (as an atheist), that trans people are as made up as God is.

Edit: I just saw that this was my 6,666 post. How apt 🤣

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502723#Comment_123502723

Mate, I am telling you now, that in your hypothetical example of you having a trans kid, if you cannot change your beliefs, your kids would not have your full support. They will know how you feel and they will distance themselves accordingly. Their life would be tough enough without constantly trying to convince you what they are and you would not be able to accept them as they are without changing your beliefs.

Sorry to be blunt about it, and for both your sakes, I honestly hope both your kids are cisgender.

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502733#Comment_123502733

"As made up as god is"

Transgender individuals are not made up, however feelings cannot trump biology and facts.

There are given facts about life; a man is a man and a women is a women - born with their own unique bits. Men typically are taller, carry more muscle and don't wear dresses. Women will typically be the inverse of the above. The sky is blue.

I will never be convinced that gender and biology are separate and will continue to refuse to use someones 'chosen' pronound and this will never change. Biology and facts are what I go off.

You are asking me to deny science in using someones chosen/preferred pronouns.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502731#Comment_123502731

I tell ya man, there's a direct line from the post above to the 1800's where Europeans couldn't believe that black people were equal to them and not, "savage animals".

dulpit

This thread still has no mod input. What's the point at this stage?

A lot of people are asking for permission to be allowed use whatever language they want versus others asking for an element of moderation. The longer it goes without input from mods or admins, the easier it is to assume that those people who want to call trans men women or trans women men and everything else that goes with that can do so with impunity.

If that's where boards is going, so be it. But it'd be good to see advice.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502685#Comment_123502685

Religious people do say that, it doesn't affect me at all, I don't believe, but I am respectful to those that do.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502757#Comment_123502757

So you meet this person:

You'd call her "him"?

Article here on whether "you can always tell"

https://katymontgomerie.com/blog/ln6521sjjefpp2xb7ol5z716ztgc0u

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502766#Comment_123502766

Oh look. It took half a dozen pages but I knew it would happen, just as I predicted below:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497946#Comment_123497946

(TBF I didn't think they'd go right back to the 1800s - I thought 1960s segregated Southern US states - but it's the same false equivalence.)

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502753#Comment_123502753

Theyll have my full support because I won't care, they'll be fine as they are,, although i do find the word cisgender silly and diversionary

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502798#Comment_123502798

Yeah cos a single, carefully chosen (not to say also, very often heavily filtered) photograph is totally the same as seeing -and talking to - someone in real life. That's well known. 😁

More importantly, that's not the problem. The point is that when women have complained about obviously male people in changing rooms etc the women have been dismissed - or even thrown out. Nobody expects there to be a check of everyone going into a female area unless there's reason to think there's a problem. The point is that WHEN a woman feels there is a problem, does she have a right to go to whoever's in charge of the place (or the police if necessary) and have the law on her side?

Or not?

In the Korean Wi-Spa in Los Angeles a few years back, when a man exposed himself to an 8 year old girl, a woman who complained at the desk was told nothing could be done because this was a trans woman and the law said she was entitled to use the women's section.

Turned out Darren Merager was a convicted sex offender - but the woman who complained didn't know that at the time. Nor of course did the people on the desk who took Merager at his word as being a trans woman.

Although TBF, any man who exposes his penis to an 8 year old girl is probably a sex offender. Well, either that or a trans woman - right?

Because how are women and girls to know the difference?

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502798#Comment_123502798

You cannot always know, I never said that. In my post I used the word 'typically'. Most of the time judging by someones body shape, height, features etc you can be right.

However I am not walking on eggshells and being careful about what words I use to talk about someone. Most of the time, you can be pretty sure. That is good enough for me.