Moderation of trans issue and terms

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498918#Comment_123498918

Prison? Does that still exist?

"Somebody once said" is not strong evidence. If no trans posters care enough to post on here, they don't care that much do they? Maybe they don't even agree, but just don't want to seem rude by contradicting you?

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498788#Comment_123498788

You "family member" IDENTIFIES as male. They are not male.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498860#Comment_123498860

There has been no evidence of transphobia here at all.

People just don't appreciate being told that every last little thing is magically transphobic by people who aren't even trans to begin with.

The trans people I've met in my life have been decent and easy to get along with.

Trans activists, people who are offended on the behalf of trans people, are an awful lot however.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498860#Comment_123498860

100%

It has made it quite apparent that there are those who would deny that transphobia is a problem on Boards, (and therefore would continue on regardless if left unchecked) and there are those who aren't informed enough to recognise it for what it is (and likely don't care to be).

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498903#Comment_123498903

I've met none, which makes little difference to the topic at hand. Can you expand on how I'm showing myself up

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498963#Comment_123498963

My post followed a poster who has spent his time describing his innate ability to identity transgender people and frankly making incredibly nasty remarks in relation to their bodies. So yes it absolutely does constitute transphobia.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498918#Comment_123498918

So one person then? One? That was kinda the point of that numbered point in my post. So thank you for making that point for me.

And the new point I just added about "Don't be a dick" also comes into play. As you said yourself the user in question treated the request uncivilally and then switched phrases to one that might be seen as more emotive, probably just to troll a reaction. So you can report that user under the already existing "Don't be a dick" rule. Again thank you for also making that point for me.

So all in all the points in my petition to the mods seem to track and apply. The proposed rule change achieves little or nothing. Is unworkable. Has not actually been requested directly by anyone it supposedly affects. Is in most cases already covered by existing rules. And is entirely superfluous to any requirements.

I do not know the software of this site intimately but I have directly programmed in and used the software from this "Family" of software that this site uses. On very similar sites. To my knowledge auto filters that replace users words with other words or phrases is not something that is implemented. And even if it was - it would be a terrible idea. I think censoring out words or phrases in and of itself is stupid anyway. But REPLACING them would be monumentally worse.

As for the "So what you are saying is" move you closed out your report with: No that is not at all what I said. You are putting words in my mouth. Don't do that. And the words you are putting in my mouth do not even make logical sense since I myself have no "skin in the game" yet I am here expressing my opinion on the matter too! So I am doing the very thing you have just INVENTED me saying people should not do :-p

Thank you.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498943#Comment_123498943

Speaking on behalf of my trans friends, they don't post here because they have told me they see the site as anti-trans.

I don't blame them one bit. Looking at this thread, it wouldn't make them feel welcome here, would it?

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498963#Comment_123498963

Thats it exactly. The people who SCREAM that every little thing is transphobic are an embarrassment to Trans people.

I have met some lovely trans people and I have met some absolute arseholes who are trans people.

They are just people at the end of the day. Not some pawn to show how progressive and virtuous you are.

All people deserve respect, but that doesn't extend to demanding people deny reality.

I respect a trans persons right to live how they wish, once biological reality can also be respected too.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498982#Comment_123498982

Would they be able to get naked and still convince the women and girls in the changing room he was still a man, I'd like to meet the surgeon that can craft a dick and balls to that level of authenticity

This is an example of transphobia. I mean, it's as plain as day.

If you were a trans person would you read this and get, "oh, this user is using a level of understanding" or would you think, "This user is being a bit of dick towards trans people"?

Also, it's not always about the genitalia. Something transphobes are transfixed by.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498992#Comment_123498992

You simply cant beat a good old anecdote to rubber stamp your argument, well done.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498992#Comment_123498992

They would be more than welcome, but if your trans friends think it is anti-trans to discus biology and the differences between biological sexes and the right to sex-based privacy, then that's on them.

I find it odd you speak to your real life friends about boards.ie

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498547#Comment_123498547

"Also, I have 

never, anywhere, 

made a comparison between the treatment of trans people and the treatment of black people. So that is utterly false."

You didn't say it directly, but some of us are sufficiently respectful that we read the links posters provide, even when we disagree with them. From point 4(c) on your link:

"We don’t dispute that it’s best to respond calmly to transphobia, however many transphobes continually aim to anger trans people to provoke trans people into a reaction that is used against trans people in the media. This is often called “Provoke and Publicise”, and was a technique employed by anti-desegregationisists in Southern states in the US in the 50s and 60s. The symbolism of this is significant."

Now, perhaps you don't agree with that statement (I'm wary of the whole page as it's full of broad sweeping statements, many of which seem to be factually wrong, with no supporting information), you might be kind enough to clarify?

Of course, as @_Kaiser_ has already pointed out, you must feel your arguments don't hold up well to scrutiny, given your stated unwillingness to debate them.

Editing to add: I actually remembered it as you saying it directly, so please accept my apologies for that inaccuracy. (I also corrected a typo).

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498992#Comment_123498992

So they send you out to do their arguing for them? That's very trusting of them, and probably not very wise. IME if you want something you need to argue your case yourself. Certainly when women were fighting for their rights, they didn't leave it to the men to do the arguing for them, except in the places where they were literally not allowed access. I mean like Parliament, not toilets.

Same for blacks in the US - if they'd waited for their nice white allies (of whom there were plenty) to get their rights for them they'd likely still be waiting.

It would be a bit silly of them to think you're going to get much done for them, if they aren't strong enough to argue their own case.

Not to mention that several trans women have been pretty active in threatening women in real life themselves, so, you know… this "poor little delicate flowers" claim doesn't really convince somehow.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12294651/Trans-activist-told-crowd-punch-TERFs-face-arrested-incitement-violence.html

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498852#Comment_123498852

Unfortunately, it seem that respect is not enough - that respect has to be demonstrated by mangling language according to rules which are not entirely clear and are subject to change on a whim anyway.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498990#Comment_123498990

You asked a specific question, I answered it and now you don't like the answer because you didn't expect it to be a yes.

LOL.

(I try to keep things short and to the point).

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499020#Comment_123499020

Plenty of similar claims from the other posters have been posted here as well. Do you automatically discredit them too?

Maybe Boards needs to implement the "anecdote" ban here as well.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499060#Comment_123499060

Also a misrepresentation from you. I did not expect or not expect any answer. In fact I specifically wrote sample values, including 1, in my sentence partly because I do work under a "Ah sure there's always one!" philosophy -

"So maybe someone can tell me if any Trans people post here? Have any at all expressed that such phrases are in any way an issue? How many users of this site is the rule even for then? 1? 5? 10?"

- so your idea that I do not like your answer is incorrect. I neither like nor dislike it. Rather I feel it validates my point and makes my point for me and even thanked you for that. No one from that community appears to be here requesting any such rule change. And even if ONE did that is ONE user requesting a language change to apply to ALL. That is unworkable.

I also asked but was ignored - given the number of conflicting claims about which language is or is not offensive - by what algorithm or methodology do you expect the site moderators to select which group to pander to the offense of and which to dismiss out of hand? One possible reason for that question being ignored - is you don't have an answer. It's unworkable and you know that as well as I do I suspect.

A selection of which group to afford this unwarranted and unrequested protection to would be as arbitrary and random as your selection of which activist site of "definitions" of the terms you decided to link us to.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499021#Comment_123499021

Why? My best man was from boards.ie

I was a founder member of the boards drama group, which turned into No Drama, an amdram theatre company that is 18 years strong.

Boards.ie was once an important part of many peoples real life®. Perhaps the burgeoning intolerance of the site is one of many (MANY) reasons, it is seen as "odd" that someone would talk about boards with their friends in real life.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498794#Comment_123498794

Not on boards, no.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498978#Comment_123498978

And yet, any time one of the ignoramuses asks for an explanation or clarifications of terms which you have either posted or linked to, you either a) say you didn't invent the terms, b) say you're not getting into a debate about them, or c) both a & b.

I note you changed the "those who don't know enough" to "those who aren't informed enough". Why?

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499017#Comment_123499017

Also, it's not always about the genitalia. Something transphobes are transfixed by

That means I'm definitely not a transphobe!😁

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498943#Comment_123498943

You yourself started the thread about prisons, are still posting on it. You also engaged directly with the boards user who is a trans woman posting there. So please stop playing silly beggars.

Boards.ie is not a welcoming space for transgender people. So the apparent "lack" of trans people posting their offence at what goes on here, does not prove they don't care. I would not blame any of them for not using this space.

(Still waiting for an acknowledgement and an apology for how you misrepresented me to another poster.)

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499082#Comment_123499082

If you don't expect an answer, don't ask a question!

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499084#Comment_123499084

Talking with friends you know through boards ABOUT boards strikes me as a little odd. No offense was intended. Perhaps it was different back in the day. Anyway that was off topic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498978#Comment_123498978

I am one of those people in the former category. Transphobia isn't a problem on boards in the same way racism isn't a problem on boards. Yes, there are a few genuine transphobes and a few genuine racists, but the overwhelming majority of posts are neither.

However, when you have a cohort of people labelling ANYTHING as racist or transphobic, it's harder to weed out the real perpetrators.

Theres plenty of examples of this hyperbolic labelling on this thread.

If anything, I think that it would be a better idea for mods to issue sanctions for people who falsely insinuate that people are transphobic for mentioning biology when it comes to the subject. It would allow for a more honest discussion.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499131#Comment_123499131

Sorry I am not sure if English is your first language or not here so I do not want to "talk down" at you by explaining the obvious. But just in case:

When I said "I did not expect or not expect any answer" in response to you saying "you did not expect <the answer> to be yes" I am not saying I am not expecting AN answer - but any PARTICULAR answer. This should be CONTEXTUALLY obvious as language is contextual.

I somewhat suspect you know this and are not replying in good faith. But again I will treat you as if you posted the above in good faith and hope the clarification helps you.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498963#Comment_123498963

Look at the post directly above this. In my mind telling a trans woman they are male is transphobic.

I think the issue here is whether this is acceptable posting on boards. Has a mod or admin made any sort of posting/ruling on this, or provided any sort of advice?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498854#Comment_123498854

Pretty sure noone is going to wait for him to take off his swim shorts, aren't you?

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499068#Comment_123499068

Nobody that Ive seen has stated absolutes, citing their friends as the source. If people were to say "well my friends who are trans dont think boards is transphobic" Id take that with an equal pinch of salt.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499173#Comment_123499173

A couple of issues there:

1. "in my mind" it is not transphobic. So what would make your mind right and mine wrong? Rather I think context is everything. There are contexts where pointing out the biological maleness of a person is fine and contexts where you are just being a dick. Sweeping censorship rules applying to all contexts is generally a bad idea "to my mind".
2. In the image you posted the user did NOT tell a trans woman they are male anyway. So it is not clear what you even mean? They told a user here that their relative is male. A) Entirely different thing B) contextually there was a reason for doing it and it was not a dick move.

Language is contextual and we have a "Don't be a dick" rule and moderators who can already read the phrases, the context, and mediate on whether they think the contextual use was a dick move or not.

So to the point and topic of this thread - which is to request a change to the existing rules/censorship - I see no benefit to pass such a motion and think it should be rejected. And the subsequent suggestion that the censorship should not just censor - but outright rewrite and replace - certain terms even more so.