Moderation of trans issue and terms

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502841#Comment_123502841

How are women to know the difference in a sex offender and a trans woman?

How do women know the difference in a man and a sex offender, or a woman and a sex offender.

I would think that suggesting there is no difference between a sex offender and a trans woman, is beyond what anyone would call offensive!

And if you want to add some more stuff to your ridiculous predicting, you do know that people suggested the same about homosexuals, some still do.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502853#Comment_123502853

It's because we can't tell that women need single sex changing rooms etc.

That. Is. The. Point.

Otherwise we might as well just have men in all women's changing rooms. Most of them aren't sex offenders, after all, and it must be very stigmatising to all those men who aren't sex offenders or voyeurs to have to stay out when they wouldn't do any harm.

(And I've literally never heard of anyone saying that gay men were a particular threat to women.)

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502841#Comment_123502841

"Any woman who exposes her penis... "

Fixed that for you, to illustrate the non transpho bic standards being requested in the OP.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502817#Comment_123502817

Out of context you're right, really?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502841#Comment_123502841

And so now we reach all trans men are sex offenders?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502941#Comment_123502941

That's nothing like what I said.

You though are playing the very masculine traditional "Not All Men" outrage card. How very MAGA of you. Scratch the progressive ally, see the old fashioned misogynist shine through.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502949#Comment_123502949

Just like I said nothing like, "Then they'll complain that you're just like those horrible racist women who didn't want black women in their changing rooms in the segregated south in the US."

Yeah? It's not a nice game taking people out of context.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502955#Comment_123502955

Treating black people as "not-people" is entirely different from treating men as "not-women". Because they're not women. See?

That's why your 1800s slavery thing is an even more nonsensical comparison than the more frequently-heard South African apartheid or Southern states segregation circa 1950s/60s. But it's the same (non) logic.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502962#Comment_123502962

Well, at least the mask is removed. You only see transwomen as men.

Thanks.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502972#Comment_123502972

What mask? Do you think I ever pretended differently? I don't believe anyone can change sex.

(And I don't actually believe you think so either.)

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502972#Comment_123502972

As do a lot of people?? The people argueing against you including myself havn't exactly been hiding that fact.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502771#Comment_123502771

Can you give us an idea of the kind of moderation you are/were expecting? This is an enormously difficult issue to broach without offending someone. I am happy to let this discussion continue as long as it remains cordial and doesn’t descend into harassment or bigoted remarks towards any one particular group.

We’re watching this and we see the reports coming in. Some require action, other posts are permitted, and some are borderline. The only other way to deal with this is to shut down the discussion, which would result in users claiming that moderators are too heavy handed. It would seem that no matter what we do, we’re doing it wrong.

So for now, I’m happy for people to continue providing feedback on this divisive issue, as long as they are not clearly expressing hatred, using demeaning language, name-calling, and so on.

Thanks one and all.

-Shield

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123502868#Comment_123502868

Someone reading your posts might think that men don't have access to women anywhere except changing rooms.

Sex offenders manage to offend just fine without access to women only spaces. You're still trying to suggest that trans women and sex offenders are connected. Exactly the same way that some people speak about homosexuals. It's offensive and degrading.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503024#Comment_123503024

@Shield - with all due respect,

"as long as it remains cordial and doesn't descend into harassment or bigoted remarks towards any one particular group"

Have you read the thread?!? The line was crossed before we went past the first page of the thread.

"as long as they are not clearly expressing hatred, using demeaning language, name-calling, and so on.

There have been multiple posts, with multiple bigoted remarks, and demeaning language. Not just towards trans people, but now those with mental health issues. e.g. "mentalists".

Just admit it, rather than draw this out any further. Nothing is going to be done about it.

Rubberchikken

Keeping men and I include the men who think that dressing as a woman/having their penis removed makes them a women out of women only areas is completely doable and must be upheld.

mikethecop

Can i make wildly exaggerated and specific demands from unobligated people tailored to my specific opinions/lifestyle choice /mental illness/orientation/hyper sensitivity also ?

isnt there a name for some one who demands control over others peoples opinions and actions?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503024#Comment_123503024

@Shield I've not been reporting posts I consider bigoted because

a: reporting posts is not working on mobile, so I would have to login on the laptop.

and

B: I would hope the admin keep this open for a predetermined time and then close it and examine it for themselves.

Do you want people to report what they consider problematic posts so there's a record of them?

Also if mods are watching and users are reporting posts yet posts describing people with mental health issues as "mentalists" remain, boards is in far more trouble than I thought.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503024#Comment_123503024

Good to hear that the mods are following it. I hope the 5 point list I made arguing why the OPs motion should not pass has been at least partially helpful?

Have you considered having a new forum just for issues around Trans Issues, with a trigger warning that people entering that forum might see language and terms they are not used to, or will not like? Then mods would only have to deal with patently egregiously offensive terms rather than fairly standard ones? Having a forum JUST for this might also make the already hard job mods have easier of trying to prevent threads all over the place derailing into that issue which happens scarily often?

As for "what kind of moderation to expect" on this thread? Not a lot really. Except maybe to keep it on topic. The thread has split into two topics. One is the original debate about forum moderation and rules/censorship changes. The other is once again ANOTHER thread on Trans issues and changing rooms and so on. And that part seems to be taking over.

Perhaps if you can mod it to shut that down and keep the thread itself on topic?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503040#Comment_123503040

Someone reading your posts might think that men don't have access to women anywhere except changing rooms.

LOL Only if they haven't lived in western society before.

Sex offenders manage to offend just fine without access to women only spaces.

So what's another few offences, then, right? Men rape women anyway, so what's the point in having any sort of safeguarding measures, since rapes happen anyway. Come to that, let's ban locking front doors, because it's offensive to the vast majority of people who aren't burglars.

You're still trying to suggest that trans women and sex offenders are connected. Exactly the same way that some people speak about homosexuals. It's offensive and degrading.

Never heard anyone saying gay men weren't allowed in women's toilets as they might attack them. Oh wait, they aren't allowed in women's toilets, even though they're about the most unlikely men to rape women - and they're not allowed because they're, you know, men. How offensive is that to gay men? How offensive is it to men who aren't rapists?

There is no category of men that poses no danger to women, and that includes the ones that identify as women.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503074#Comment_123503074

isnt there a name for some one who demands control over others peoples opinions and actions?

They're generally called mods.

:P

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503121#Comment_123503121

Have you considered having a new forum just for issues around Trans Issues,

A TERForum perhaps? Because I can tell you now exactly how many trans persons would post on such a forum.

Zero.

Why would they subject themsleves to yet another forum that wants to deny their existence or at the very least, withhold their rights as individuals?

All the trans people I know want to be left the f*ck alone and get on with their life.

I will not be replying to you if you reply with a wall of text, like you are prone to do, btw.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503123#Comment_123503123

Your last paragraph is correct. Perhaps we should ban all men from public areas?

In fact, considering how many women are abused and murdered by their male partners, maybe banning all men from living with women might be an idea? Or considering the amount of children who are abused, physically and sexually by male family members, maybe we need to isolate men totally from all society.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503169#Comment_123503169

If you are another one who thinks 4 small paragraphs is a "wall of text" then I can't help you either :) I really do despair at the level of attention span people have these days. Even in issues they themselves claim to be invested in. But since the magic number appears to be 4 paragraphs Ill make 4 just for you. :p

But no - no one is asking anyone to "subject" themselves to anything. The exact opposite in fact. The point of the forum would be to make the REST of the site more welcoming. Which is supposedly what you guys are asking for. They would not wander into things like "Politics" and "Current Affairs" and "After Hours" and instantly see threads that may trigger them or upset them.

We have an "atheism" forum for example where Theists know well that if they go in there they are going to see religion less than revered and experience "Blasphemy" and so on. So they can simply not go there. No one is asking them to. Much they would read there would be upsetting to them. But they are always welcome to if they want. Outright abuse or insulting of theists is not permitted there. But an extreme reverence for tip-toe language is not really in practice either.

Anyway I am not particularly suggesting it myself. If you re-read my post you will see I just ASKED if it was one of the things the mods have considered at any point. I'd be curious to know if the thought ever crossed their mind. And what they themselves thought the pros and cons of it would be. No interest in such a forum myself. I wouldn't enter it as Trans issues and activism around that issue does not interest or affect me. I have considered learning more about it but I am not sure who to talk to on it on this forum for example. I do not particularly feel you or two other users on this thread conduct yourself at all well - or represent that cause well. I'd very much like to find a more cogent and coherent and less abrasive person on "your" side of the issue to have a good conversation with.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503195#Comment_123503195

I'm not sure what your conclusion is from that rant? Let's ban all men from everywhere? Let's ban none from anywhere? I've no idea what point you're making in terms of how to organise society.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503197#Comment_123503197

You know what, I would fully endorse a TERForum, IF trans individuals were treated with a warm welcome & unequivocal respect on the rest of the site, which includes (but is not limited to) any of the bigotry that is on display on this this thread. It would be great if TERFs were stuck to one forum I could ignore.

I mean, they already have mumsnet, so maybe it's not that needed here after all.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503216#Comment_123503216

Mumsnet you say? "Off you go to a different website" is hardly very inclusive is it?

Funny, that.

(But I note that you see women as your enemy on this issue - the ones you want to get rid of by sending them to Mumsnet. Again - not very inclusive of you. But an interesting take on where you see the conflict of interests)

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503216#Comment_123503216

Well if I strip away the superfluous inflammatory posturing from what you just wrote - at the core of it is some level of interest in a separate forum for debating Trans related issues.

I am a big believer in finding common ground between disparate groups. So if the people you have been arguing AGAINST on this thread also have such an interest too - perhaps the mods should take note and consider the idea with some rigor?

I have a few ideas on how such a forum could be run and how it would affect (positively I hope) the rest of the boards.ie site. Based off my experience of doing something very similar on another (religion related) site. Which I would be happy to lay out if anyone (especially the mods) wanted me to.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503244#Comment_123503244

You really do have a talent for taking your own meaning out of posts.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503248#Comment_123503248

You seem to have missed the part where I suggested that no one with an interest in trans rights, other than removing them or minimising them would post there.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503248#Comment_123503248

I do think it would be a great idea. I suggested that to a mod one time, for exactly that reason - to have a space like the atheist forum where we could expect people who chose to, to argue the science and logic of their beliefs, without being accused of misgendering etc. And those who wanted to live in a comforting world of their own ideology could stay out of that forum, same as religious people who don't want to be challenged don't go to the atheist forum.

(It was only part of a discussion, so didn't really go anywher,e but I'm very happy to back you on your suggestion now, especially if you have practical suggestions to make about running it - which I didn't, TBF!)

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503250#Comment_123503250

I just read the words in front of me. What else did you mean by the reference to Mumsnet, if not "they can always FO to MN if they don't like the rules here"? That's how it looks to me.