Moderation of trans issue and terms

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Very quiet in here.

Ezeoul

Can any of the current CA mods or Admins explain why the rampant and blatant transphobic comments and use of transphobic language currently going on in the CA forum, is being tolerated?

@Beasty used to be quite reliable in acting on transphobia in CA, but I notice he does not appear to be as active these days.

But, seeing as I realise Boards can't make posters not be transphobic, can I suggest that some filters be applied to (*****) transphobic language, in a similar way they are applied to other offensive words and phrases, like the N word, or the C word.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490183#Comment_123490183

As you say, you can't force people to believe what others believe on such an emotive topic, but censorship of posts/opinions you don't like isn't the answer either - especially when the whole topic in question centres around personal belief about one's identity.

What if I'm offended by terms such as "cis". Should they be censored too?

I'd suggest doing what I do to posters I feel offer nothing to the discussion (which is an entirely subjective valuation on my part) - add them to your ignore list.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123491646#Comment_123491646

I never said anything about forcing anyone to believe anything. I don't bother engaging to try and convince anyone to change their opinions, and I already use the ignore feature.

But I do feel strongly that everyone is entitled to be treated with respect, and that is not happening here. Lines are constantly being crossed and dehumanising and stigmatising language is being used with impunity on threads about transgender people.

So, if there is some term that offends you then you are free to make your own suggestions to Boards, in the same way I did.

The mod team and/or admins may take it on board, they may not. I have no control over that either. Everyone is permitted to make suggestions.

nullzero

Looking at the thread in question and it's such a low bar for transphobia you could run a limbo contest under it.

If there's actual abuse of anyone CA isn't a place where it's going to be left to hang around for any duration.

We can't all have our personal beliefs tailored to on a forum like this, even if you start a thread on a topic you can't set the bar for morality and dictate things by saying "welcome to my blog" or the likes.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123491772#Comment_123491772

Again, you're trying to make this about "beliefs" - it's not. It's about showing some basic respect towards other human beings.

If that is beyond some posters abilities, well, it's a poor reflection on them, but it's also a poor reflection on Boards that it is being allowed to go on unchecked. Some EDI training would do no harm!

A reminder of a post by a former Boards.ie employee on the subject.

(eta) It's also not just about one thread. It happens on every thread where transgender people are part of the topic.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123491800#Comment_123491800

Are there posters being referred to by other posters using gendered language they don't want used in reference to them?

Because I'm seeing a discussion taking place that occurs in a much more abstract sense. At that point it does boil down to beliefs.

You're essentially stating that your opinions/beliefs should be catered to exclusively and that some sort of training is required to bring people into line with your opinions/beliefs.

Are there any examples you can cite where one user has been abusive to somebody that has identified themselves on thread as trans?

It seems to me that you're not pleased with the prevailing opinions on that thread and now you're coming here to try to shut up the people disagreeing with you which doesn't really qualify as feedback, more of a personal gripe, we all have plenty of those but we have to deal with them ourselves.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123491923#Comment_123491923

No, I'm not. And I'm not going to engage in your attempts to make this about "my beliefs".

My whole issue is there is language being used with impunity that is meant to misgender and invalidate transgender people. That is transphobic, no matter how "low the bar" you consider it to be. To put a perspective on it, you can't be just "a little bit pregnant" or "a little bit racist" either.

While some posters may think such a "low bar" of transphobia is allowable or acceptable, I don't, which is why I pointed it out there (also explaining why) and brought it up here, as I think Boards needs to address it in line with their own stated policies, instead of turning a blind eye to it and letting it go unchecked.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123491972#Comment_123491972

You're really going to need to cite an example to back these claims up. I've looked through the thread in question, I didn't see this awful language, maybe I missed it, perhaps you can show us all where it exists.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492038#Comment_123492038

As already stated, it is not just one thread, and with all due respect, I don't need to provide you with examples of anything and I'm not asking you to do anything.

This is a Boards feedback thread, not a CA thread.

I'm asking the CA mods / Admin team to pay more attention to what is going on, and see what / if anything can be done about it.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492060#Comment_123492060

That presumes that there's something needing to be done in the first place.

I'm forced to agree with an earlier assesssment. I understand and appreciate that you take issue with the "language" being used by other posters on this topic, but as I said before, it's an emotive topic based entirely on an individual's personal view of their identity. Put simply, you can't force people to accept, validate or advocate for something that contradicts their own (equally valid) beliefs on the topic or how much weight they place on the historical/biological facts involved.

No-one has been personally abused (that I can see - but I would condemn same if that has happened), and the discussion is more of a higher-level debate on the impact that certain decisions do/could have on others.

Your fundamental objection does seem to be that you disagree with other posters not validating your own opinions on the topic, and you want Boards to step in with sanction and censorship to enforce it. That actually harms your position as if it can't stand on its own merits without such actions, maybe it's not as solid as thought in the first place? Moreso, if you did get your wish, all that's likely to result is entrenchment and further hardening of views rather than the outcome you might hope for.

Fundamentally it's a topic that there will likely never be universal agreement or consensus on because of its very nature, but so long as there is an acceptance (on both "sides") of this and the debate flows without personal abuse or obvious trolling, then that's about all anyone can expect.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492094#Comment_123492094

Again, you err in your assumption that I am attempting to make anyone to "accept, validate or advocate" for anything outside of their own beliefs.

What I am requesting is that the frequent use of transphobic terms and language be addressed by the CA mods / Admin teams, possibly by way of word filters.

"High-level debate" is not and never will be a justification for the use of transphobic language.

In my opinion, something does need to be done about it. That is what feedback threads are for. Does it mean anything will change? Probably not. But at least I can say I spoke up and I tried.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492060#Comment_123492060

I'm against people being abused.

It's odd that for such widespread abuse to be happening but to not be able to be cited when raising the issue. It's not about furnishing me personally with information, I don't matter in this context but what you're saying is something that carries a burden of proof.

I'm guessing you've reported any instances of said abuse so if they hold water they'll be actioned and if not they won't.

Boards is a lot things, but a hotbed of transphobic rhetoric is perhaps the last thing it is or ever has been.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492159#Comment_123492159

As I've already explained, the purpose of this thread is not for reposting content from other threads, but for providing feedback to Boards.

However I will add, that if you've read these threads as you say, and you don't recognise the issues within them for what they are, then my repeating them here for you won't suddenly make you see anything differently.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492120#Comment_123492120

I have to be blunt - I have a far bigger issue with the call for filters and censorship because people are posting words you personally don't like, which is essentially what you're asking for.

You're dressing it up as concern over something that I see no evidence of, and which despite others requesting it, you've provided no examples of. As was asked above, have you reported the posts you find objectionable? Were they actioned?

You say that you're not trying to make anyone change their own beliefs or validate others but you in fact are by trying to limit what they can say, purely to satisfy your own feelings of what should be allowed in the discussion - a topic that is by its very nature, something that comes down to personal views, feelings and belief.

suvigirl

Maybe boards should allow gay slurs, if the poster doesn't believe in homosexuality?

Like if we allow people to say whatever they want about anyone, then there are no insults are there?

What about posters who believe black people have smaller brains and are not as intelligent as white people? That's their beliefs, maybe they should be allowed to post insulting words to that affect?

Backstreet Moyes

Slurs around black people and gay people are very obvious.

What is transphobic needs to have clear definitions because it is not well defined.

Some people think nearly anything said not positive about the movement is transphobic.

I would have no problem if it was clearly defined in the charter.

It would also be good if we could cut out terms that women feel is offensive such as CIS, birthing parent etc, gather words that upset women and also add them to the charter.

That would certainly clear things up for everyone.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492416#Comment_123492416

I don't think anyone on boards has ever used the term 'birthing parent' in earnest

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492287#Comment_123492287

Do you object to the filters that Boards already apply to derogatory and offensive terms?

Or are you just opposed to the suggestion of a few new additions to those filters?

Just because you personally don't recognise something as problematic, doesn't mean it isn't or that it doesn't exist.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492401#Comment_123492401

Absolutely nobody is suggesting that transphobic slurs should be allowed, we're merely stating that none are being used to begin with.

You're being entirely unreasonable in what you're saying, using loaded emotive language to brow beat people into smaller and smaller definitions of perceived bigotry to shut down discussion.

If you're going to say that offensive language is being used routinely then bloody prove it. Otherwise you're just trying to stifle reasonable commentary which is censorship based on your own ideals, a hallmark of authoritarianism.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492416#Comment_123492416

It's very obvious that many posters on Boards do not recognise transphobia - either within themselves, or when they see it right in front of them. And worse, some are okay with it anyway, because its "low bar".

Someone posting something transphobic unknowingly I can get past. But there are people here who continue doing it knowingly, even after being asked to stop. If they were genuinely not transphobic, they would take it on board.

Clearly getting people to recognise transphobia is an uphill battle, as I imagine getting people to recognise homophobia was back in the day. As I mentioned earlier, a little EDI training for the mods would not go amiss, either. Though I doubt the owner will spring for that.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492553#Comment_123492553

I have no problem with clearly defined terms around what is transphobic language.

I got warned for mentioning going back to normal yesterday when my intent was to say women getting self safe spaces such as changing rooms and biological males being kicked out of sport which I strongly agree with.

I have no problem addressing anyone as they would like to be called once it is not infringing on women's rights.

I can see looking back although I had no intent of making a homophobic comment that maybe it came across as that.

If we are going to remove homophobic slurs then I think we need a clear definition in the charter is all.

I don't think a lot of people understand what is transphobic and what is not and a lot of it is people who don't know they are doing it, I am sure there are possibly some who do it but I haven't noticed it.

I don't see rampant transphobia on boards, so we need clearly defined terms.

I would also like what women find as slurs also be added also.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492653#Comment_123492653

If from these conversations even one person realises something they said might cause offence and is genuine about making a real effort to avoid repeating that mistake, then I take that as progress. Thank you.

Flaneur OBrien

Using phrases like, "Trans identifying male" is transphobic.

The language is transwoman or transmale.

Refusing to use the term cisgender is also transphobic. The term cisgender literally means,

to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person was identified as having at birth

If you don't agree with being called cisgender, it's the same as denying the existence of trans people.

Boards continuously refuses to deal with the issue of ill informed transphobes by letting these things slide.

Irish Aris

Good morning everyone.

Just a quick note that we are looking into the topic you discuss in the thread since yesterday.

My understanding is similar to what Flaneur mentions above: the term "trans identifying male/female" is generally considered misgendering at the very least.

We want to ensure that this is indeed the spirit of the rules, and also as per a guideline from Niamh a few years back. We don't want to jump the gun and start deleting posts etc. without being certain first.

Please bear with us while we look into it.

Thank you.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492512#Comment_123492512

If you're going to say that offensive language is being used routinely then bloody prove it

Two weeks ago, in this very discussion, you were repeatedly called out for refusing to post examples of something you claimed there was "plenty of" in Current Affairs. That's an incredible display of hypocrisy

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492812#Comment_123492812

Thank you, much appreciated.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492830#Comment_123492830

That was a conversation about how certain public figures are routinely abused in CA.

There are threads, the entire content of which are abuse of the likes of Trump or Musk.

Providing links to them was a moot point, I wasn't even opposed to people saying those things, I was observing that some abuse is tolerated while other types of abuse are vilified.

In this instance a poster is stating that language with the intent of causing upset to trans people is commonplace and by extension anti trans ideology is being pushed by posters on the site and that the volunteer mods and admins need to sent on training courses to correct this.

I made no such assertions when I made my observation, I also made no claims of sweeping changes being needed so you're conflating two things that have essentially no relation to each other to score points because you can't get over a minor point of discussion from a fortnight ago.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492766#Comment_123492766

But now you're asking for compelled speech. Is that really a road we should go down?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493087#Comment_123493087

We already have compelled speech. Are you allowed call a gay person a f*ggot, for example?

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492553#Comment_123492553

I'm not questioning your sincerity here, but I fear you may be ascribing motives to others on the basis of your beliefs, when you no little or nothing about theirs - such motives may in fact be entirely different. Case in point: @volchitsa outlined the desire for clarity in exactly what is being discussed. If you look at the men in women's sports thread, the first couple of pages is a mess precisely because most of the people got confused about the meaning of transgender man and transgender women (or maybe it was transman and transwomen). I personally think it's a bit clunky to say "born with the sex of male, who now decides to identify with the gender of female", but if I can't use the terms trans identifying male or biological male, then that might be necessary.