Moderation of trans issue and terms

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499506#Comment_123499506

Oh I can correct you on that misconception. There are two reasons to reply to a post directly. One is to continue conversation with that user directly. The other is to converse the subject of the thread with the thread as a whole. I do both of course. But the latter is usually what I do.

But generally if you do not want me to reply to you then simply do not reply to me. If you replied before or reply to this this is a "you" problem. Most of the time that will work unless I feel as I said that replying to you will serve my message on the thread as a whole. At which point I mean no pressure upon you to reply in kind. And in fact you have ignored posts from me directed directly at you before. So keep it up :)

But it goes both ways too. You said - while quoting my entire post - that quoting an entire post gives the impression you are seeking a response. Sauce for the goose and gander.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499513#Comment_123499513

Is that not an issue with moderation as a whole though? Mods come and go and sometimes the experience of being a mod means they not only leave the role of mod - but it colors their experience of the site as a whole and they leave the site.

It happened to me myself two times. I was a moderator on two websites one relatively small compared to boards and one relatively massive compared to boards. In both cases I got burned out by the mod role and quit. But in both cases I found I did not want to go back to the sites at all and never did.

That said though I would love to maximize how welcome ANY minority group feels on this site if it is possible to do so. We should all strive to that ideal I feel. But when threads ABOUT that minority come up those people should expect to see perfectly valid language being used which in any OTHER context would be offensive or dickish or disrespectful. If this is an issue they can simply not enter those threads.

If we can not make Trans people in general feel welcome in our online community that is an "us" problem. If they can not cope with the perfectly valid language used in very specific threads that is a "them" problem. This respect and duty of care goes both ways.

As people have pointed out using language for no reason that reminds Trans people needlessly of the realities of their genetic biological sex is a dick thing to do. If a mod sanctions such a person for doing so - great. But if a Trans person willingly enters a thread that is specifically based upon a "space" being segregated on sex and not gender - then they should do so KNOWING they are going to see language that refers to their actual sex rather than their socially presented gender.

It reminds me a lot of the Abortion Referendum debates. People against abortion would use words like "Baby" "Unborn" "Life" while people who wanted choice in abortion would use terms like "Fetus". And it would be pointed out how rarely you would ask a pregnant woman about her fetus and what a dicky thing that would be do to. But that is because language is contextual and in the context of discussing abortion "Fetus" was absolutely the right term to use and getting antsy over that word was at best performative and at worst a willful canard.

I think the respect can go both ways. We - myself included - can and should practice the respect any CONTEXT deserves. Phrases like "Trans Identifying Male" can be absolutely the right or the wrong term to reach for depending on the context. And a blanket ban on such a term will help no one, least of all the moderators.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499552#Comment_123499552

What part of it was not a fact based on the post I was responding to?

*Edit Actually don't bother. I said I wasn't responding on this particular argument

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499569#Comment_123499569

You have the utter GALL to say,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499522#Comment_123499522

Yet constantly refuse to accept trans individuals as anything but their given sex.

You are also argumentative, as you have confessed yourself.

You are one of many users that does not make boards a welcoming place for trans individuals

Your fake concern fools no-one.

plodder

Jesus, at least with the old religion, there was no sin that couldn't be forgiven, since the Spanish inquisition anyway, which this is beginning to sound like.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499583#Comment_123499583

That is your opinion and are entitled to it.

I do reject gender identity and do see it as frankly bizarre that we are expected to acknowledge the importance of gender over sex. Having said that, I do respect the right of any individual to identify as they want, and I have the right to know it's not reality.

I have met many trans people who have been respectful to me and I in turn was respectful to them. I have met a few who were disrespectful to me and I gave them no respect in return.

I am sometimes argumentative, that is true. However, it is funny for you to call out someone for being argumentative. You should look at your post history. Talk about utter GALL.

I am welcoming of any people to come to boards. If a trans individual is offended by something I say, let them tell me why and I may change my mind. I won't however, ever deny biological reality and think it would be terrible for the site to try to implement.

I have my own beliefs and will engage in robust conversations.

What won't change my mind though, are hysterical TRAs that shout bigot and transphobe at every action or opinion that doesn't align with what THEY see as progressive and right.

I enjoy speaking with people whose opinion differs with mine, especially when it is done in a civil manner. I agree, sometimes I am too argumentative and sometimes step over the line, but at least I am woman enough to admit when I do. I try to give respect where respect is due but sometimes some people do not deserve that respect.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498927#Comment_123498927

I wasn't but noticed that with regards this thread and trying to police niche offensive terms then telling someone not to be a dick would probably be seen as transphobic if we are to play along with the odd request given just how much can be caught in the "transphobic" net. Whether or not a dick is involved from birth or not being a key part of this discussion.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499336#Comment_123499336

aero you're old enough and bold enough (I said bold enough!) to be able to make that determination for yourself, taking context into consideration and all the rest of it. You really shouldn't need to ask the question, nor should you need to be told. But, since you do ask the question, it can amount to sexual harassment in the workplace, again, depending upon context -

Calling a man bald is sexual harassment, employment tribunal rules | UK News | Sky News

Interestingly, and perhaps at the risk of splitting hairs, the c-word is gender neutral in the UK, and definitely best avoided in the US, but on an Irish message board? Bit of a no-no, obviously. Hairy situations like that can easily be avoided by keeping in mind the application of manners, or civility, or the obligation and expectation which is placed upon all users of the platform to be civil and respectful to others. It doesn't need to be explicitly stated that even if you think they are talking out their arse, your determination to use terminology you believe to be accurate gives you authority to over-ride all other concerns. It does not, it never has, even when discussing far, far more contentious social issues than how less than 1% of the population should refer to themselves or comport themselves, in accordance with a particular world view which is influenced more by culture than it is nature (nature simply doesn't have the capacity to care one way or another).

It wouldn't be at all strange to omit the fact that anyone may be folicularly challenged in attempting to describe them using characteristics which may help to distingush them from anyone else, that may well be because I work with many folicularly challenged individuals, so it wouldn't be of any use in nailing down specifically who I might be referring to. I have no doubt I too have been described in uncharitable terms, but it's something I personally generally try to avoid, for the simple reason that it implies anyone who shares that characteristic is also classified as such, when that's not the intention.

Speaking of intent and intention, there may well be times when a genuine error is made and the benefit of the doubt must be given, but that doesn't mean that the circumstances don't amount to uncivil behaviour or even more serious - unlawful discrimination. There are exemptions to the Equality Acts, but they are interpreted narrowly, in such a way that even if one were to make a genuine error, that doesn't excuse the offence -

'A huge victory' - Transgender man awarded €5,000 compensation from barber who refused to cut his hair

I would suggest if in doubt, reach out to a Moderator for clarification, as shooting one's mouth off first and asking questions later has never led to a posituve outcome for individuals who are determined to engage in that sort of behaviour.

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498928#Comment_123498928

Again, nobody is saying any of those things makes people transphobic.

Plenty of transphobic statements being made in this thread, but none of the above are as such

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499431#Comment_123499431

Nice, in fact I have no problem sharing a dressing room with anyone male or female but I could understand some females not being as comfortable, something some on here fail to grasp, but as long as the trans community feel OK with making others uncomfortable then everything is fine in their world

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499213#Comment_123499213

Your family member who is trans identifies as male, still not male tho, is that better

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499756#Comment_123499756

Still a transphobic statement. 🤷

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499798#Comment_123499798

If "male" is a feeling, it's a transphobic statment, if "male" is something you can scientifically define, surely not a transphobic statement?

Or am I off the mark with this? Geniune query here.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499819#Comment_123499819

You would think so

but sure

"If you don't agree with being called cisgender, it's the same as denying the existence of trans people"

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499833#Comment_123499833

Why are you muddying the waters here?

This is what I asked:

If "male" is a feeling, it's a transphobic statment, if "male" is something you can scientifically define, surely not a transphobic statement?

Or am I off the mark with this? Geniune query here.

Based on that logic, was the statement transphobic and if so, why?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499565#Comment_123499565

TL:DR

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499859#Comment_123499859

Sorry.

Most people would agree that correctly stating that a transwoman is a biological male is not in any way transphobic. It is a matter of fact.

However, certain Trans Rights Activists would disagree and declare calling a transwoman a biological male. These people tend to believe that anything and everything is transphobic. Thankfully their numbers are dwindling or their voice is getting more quiet.

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499798#Comment_123499798

Genuinely flabbergasted by this assertion and would genuinely welcome your response to the following question:

What makes this a transphobic statement?

Pointing out a scientific, medical fact is somehow an act of hatred or disrespect?

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499960#Comment_123499960

Science and biology be damned, it's feelings* only that matter here.

*the feelings of biological men that identify as women, actual women can get fcuked.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499633#Comment_123499633

I have met many trans people who have been respectful to me and I in turn was respectful to them. I have met a few who were disrespectful to me and I gave them no respect in return.

Where in the name of Jesus are people meeting all these Trans people?

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492766#Comment_123492766

"Labelling me as something I don't like is transphobic, but you refusing to accept the label I'm applying to you, which you don't like, is also transphobic"

Get. The Fcuking. Boat.

You can't have it both ways. Hypocrisy is off the charts.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499700#Comment_123499700

You ignored the context I provided😀!

It would be as strange for someone to describe the real-life appearance of myself or @Cordell without mentioning baldness, as it would be for me to describe your boards.ie persona without mentioning long convoluted posts or links that don't support the arguments being made, that is if an argument is actually discernible.😃

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123499798#Comment_123499798

In your opinion

aero2k

Back on topic, more or less: I wonder if there is a cultural element to this? I suspect in countries that are renowned for having straight-talking populations e.g. Netherlands, Finland etc, less offence would be taken at statements that are factually correct.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500103#Comment_123500103

I'm surprised that you haven't come across any? I'd say there's not a secondary school in the country that doesn't have several these days. Maybe you don't know any young people?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500219#Comment_123500219

I didn’t ignore the context you provided, in fact I specifically addressed it, and were all three of us working in the same workplace I would still have the issue of distinguishing between yourself and Cordell as both of you would appear to be follicularly challenged.

If you were to attempt to use long convoluted posts or links that don’t support arguments being made as a distinguishing characteristic between posters on this website, you would still struggle to make it clear whom you were referring to, though if physical characteristics were a determining factor, my username might be more useful in that regard, not that the condition is visible to the naked eye mind - it’s there, it just doesn’t function.

The more observant observer if they were aware of the reference in Twin Peaks might have a different perspective on the use of my avatar, or as indeed in one instance has happened, the intent in my username was mistaken as a euphemism for a penis, in support of their attempt to characterise me as a misogynist, an association which I was entirely unaware of before then, albeit pretty damn accurate -

 "One-eyed Jack": Slang for penis...or a the Jack with one eye in a deck of cards whereby a poker game is played they are wild.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/17/messages/1252.html

There are many good reasons I might be characterised as a misogynist; that was not one of them.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500254#Comment_123500254

I admit I am in the same boat myself. Despite having 4 kids of my own with their own multitudes of friends and I teach kids in at least 2 varied settings.

I do not know any such people. Except the one absolute parasite who came claiming to be Trans (may or may not be I have no idea) and demanding access to a "women only" Jiu Jitsu feeder class I had formed and was teaching.

But I later found out this person was only doing this to try and get social media attention and was actually going from sport to sport - club to club - recording themselves getting rejected to try and go viral. And when they failed because no one took any notice of them - each time they deleted it all from their social media and went to the next place and tried again.

I probably would not have even known about it except one of the previous targets noticed I was the current target and contacted me to let me know videos of me and my club and stuff were all posted. No one took any notice and it was all taken down again ready for the next victim.

Other than that I have never met a Trans person and know of none. I have not gotten myself involved in any Trans debates or issues and consider myself relatively ignorant about the issues as a whole. It is not something I have cared to educate myself on or get involved in much either. And I do not consider the parasite remotely representative of that community OR activists in or for that community.

The only reason I post on THIS thread is that it is less about Trans issues and more about forum moderation, linguistics, censorship, and other issues I actually am interested in and concerned with.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500254#Comment_123500254

Where did I say I haven't met any?

It's just amazing the trans panic merchants on here claim to know so many.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500103#Comment_123500103

I personally have met both trans and non-binary people through work, and befriended a trans man I met through work previously. I also have an immediate family member who is a psychologist specialising in gender identity.

I will say my friend is indistinguishable from any other men I know. It always amuses me when posters claim they can tell "instantly" when someone is trans. I genuinely didn't know or even suspect he was trans until about a year after I first met him, and on getting to know me and realising I was not going to "be a dick" to him, he chose to share this information about himself with me.

But my first close experience with a trans person was through a close friend and her husband who have a (now adult) trans child whom I have known since they were a newborn. Suffice to say their family went through some very difficult years as their child was growing up and figuring out who they were. Not just with their child's struggles, but with the attitudes towards them that they had to deal with on top of it. I also spent a lot of time supporting them as a family after this young person was nearly beaten to death in Dublin City Centre for their appearance which resulted in a prolonged hospital stay and took years of both physical and psycho therapy for them to recover from. They still don't feel safe going into town on their own. And that is what led me to where I am today. An "out-and-proud" ally, not just for trans people, but for all LGBTQ people.

I am going to bow out of this thread now, because sadly it has descended into just another typical boards thread on the subject, and I don't see any headway being made. I don't regret making the opening post, and I am grateful to all those who tried to keep things on course and civil. But my reasons for making the opening post have only been confirmed, and reinforced by this thread. Transphobia and transphobic language is a real problem here, and it's getting worse, not better.

However, it's out of my hands and in the hands of the mods and admin team now to decide how to deal with it.

Enjoy the bank holiday weekend, hopefully the rain will stay away, and it's almost June! 🌈

https://dublinpride.ie/

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500416#Comment_123500416

IME trans men often "pass" more readily because they can look like teenage boys or young men. That's far less true of trans women, and especially those who transitioned later in life (which is the majority of trans women, unlike trans men, who tend to be teens and young adults).

As I said in the other thread, height is often a giveaway for trans men. If they're within the normal height range for adult man, I expect it's going to be less obvious. That said, all but one of those I know are even small for the female range, so I'm only guessing there. I think if you were looking for signs though, the small hands and feet would be one.

Also, I'm really sorry about the young trans person you mention getting beaten up. That's completely wrong.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123500480#Comment_123500480

Yes, there was one who used to work behind the bar in a pub in Lincoln, that I used to occasionally frequent. 6'2", about 18 stone, hands like shovels and a voice like cement mixer. Had to shave three times a day to keep the five o clock shadow in check.