EVs are worse for the environment (and other EV related myths)

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009805#Comment_120009805

You are forgetting about coal that's used in other countries to produce our clothes, food, phones etc.

Where do you think we will be in 10 years V the 8 billion tonnes of coal we consume today?

I'm not disputing ev's have zero tail pipe emissions but we seem perfectly happy to churn 8 billion tonnes of coal into the sky and pretend it's all good because we can't see the smoke stacks ourselves.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009630#Comment_120009630

It's better to take whatever realistic actions we can take, such as buying an EV when it comes to changing our car. Saying the sky is falling and calling everyone delusional will achieve nothing. Work with what we can, rather than scream at what we can't. My household is 2 EV. Not pumping fossil fuels out the tailpipe is a nice reward. My reasons for purchase are not environmental, but it does make a difference. I'm not some greenie though....i'm burning coal in the stove right now. A half tonne does me the winter. Toasty.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009643#Comment_120009643

And yet it's probably more achievable than removing cars from our roads.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009813#Comment_120009813

So now you are saying we will possibly need blackouts?

So how will we power our lovely EV's?

Are you talking about just Ireland here or will other countries keep burning the coal to avoid blackouts?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009809#Comment_120009809

a multitude of things, some have purchased ev's, solar panels, consume less(i do this myself), engage in environmental friendly activities, from wild life surveys to tree planting etc, reduction in traveling(i do this myself, largely due to costs, but...), i generally wear clothes on a weekly cycle, depends how dirty they get though.... im still wearing clothes that are over 10 years old....

...you d be surprised what people are doing out there, very inspirational, and im very thankful they are to....

...yes some dont give a fcuk, they will always exist, but many really really do....

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009849#Comment_120009849

Why had we a record consumption of coal this year then?

If we have all these inspirational people out there then we should be seeing a reduction in coal consumption then?

You talk nice words but the thermal plants keep pumping.

The Real President Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009648#Comment_120009648

The greenies are those who push a (green) policy and wilfully ignore it's weaknesses and failures

You're being disingenuous, just call it low carbon power, far more people will listen and support you if you are honest

Eg gas is better than coal because of the cleaner and more efficient burn. Wind is better than solar because it can generate at all times of a day and it's greater scale

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009869#Comment_120009869

...because theres a serious limitation to what the individual can do, in order to reduce this consumption of fossil fuels, significant investments in our energy networks are required to move away from fossil fuels, this never happened, but is now starting to happen, it will more than likely take many years, probably decades to achieve this, i.e. before we see a reduction in the consumption of these fuels, remembering large proportions of our economy and major institutions require enormous amounts of energy to simply be, health care system, and always important to remember, data centers use roughly 15% of our generated energy etc etc

The Real President Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009637#Comment_120009637

I'm not denying that but that would be compounded failures

It's also the fallacy of sunken costs instead of life extension

As an aside we'd be a 500k household what has put any of our cars off the road in the past is inability to source a component or someone lamping the car and insurance deciding not to repair

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009878#Comment_120009878

So many inferences there, from a conversation around a single idea. I'll leave ya to it.

As another said, the best bit about this thread is deciding to ignore it.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009824#Comment_120009824

In fairness were you not responding to a comment that EV drivers might make a small sacrifice by buying more efficient EVs with smaller batteries to enable more EVs to be put on the road with same resources. It's a bit of a leap to be talking about banning cars.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010743#Comment_120010743

yes sometimes it is available, but sometimes its not, we do not live in such a distribution of population where the public option exists for all, again, yes, comfort and convenience does play a part in decision making, but not always, necessity dictates many, forcing the change over to public, without consideration to these nuances will ultimately lead to failure.....

liamog

Mod Note: Stick to the topic of comparative environmental impact of EVs vs ICE vehicles. This is not the place for the broader debate on private transport methods.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009492#Comment_120009492

no need to wait to be seen. the figures are already there.

But if you think the most of Irelands electricity comes from moneypoint then I guess you do indeed live in the past

havimg no tailpipe emission in the city is infinite times better already . Cycling in traffic or walking on a footpath is far more enjoyable and healthy

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009630#Comment_120009630

Irelands coal consumption is 1.2bn not 8.2bn and moneypoint is nearing end of life. It’ll be gone in a few years

VikingG

It is still amazes me how many people still think that we get electricity from coal in Ireland - I had someone say the exact same trope to me personally recently - What is the point of EVs when the electricity here is generated from Coal. But Moneypoint has an interesting side note as it recently had the world's largest flywheel installed essentially a Synchronous Condenser that allows the grid to remain synchronous with demand while taking even more wind power in - Ireland does actually lead the way in a lot of this.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009492#Comment_120009492

It's been well proven that even a 100% coal powered EV is cleaner than ice

Breathing is bad for the environment too, if you cared about the planet you should do less of that

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012914#Comment_120012914

I'm sure you won't mind sharing me a link to backup your claim that a coal powered EV is better for the environment than a petrol one.

Thanks in advance.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012626#Comment_120012626

That's independent of the thermal plant though. Just happens to be in the same location.

And yes we still get electricity from moneypoints coal.

Not sure what you are amazed about there.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013215#Comment_120013215

It doesn’t just happen to be there.

it was put there because of the grid connection which is sharer there with unit 2. Also because the connection to the 400 KV network , also because of the amount of renewable along that corridor and also because of a the additional Renewables which will be built thete

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013201#Comment_120013201

The studies have been discussed a few times on this forum, perhaps do your own research

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013317#Comment_120013317

Ah no, it's up to the person making a claim to back it up. I'm sure he will be along shortly with his sources.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013269#Comment_120013269

It's still independent of the thermal plant though.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013330#Comment_120013330

Not repeatedly on the same sub forum. Your presumed inability to use a search engine is not an excuse for your ignorance of said studies.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013338#Comment_120013338

I was asking somebody else, I'm sure he will be polite enough to backup his claims.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013362#Comment_120013362

And I'm asking you as the mod of this sub forum to not demand it. You've hit most of the usual talking points that troll's use, move on.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013557#Comment_120013557

Don't be ridiculous. I'm all in on EV and PV panels powering it but I'm not buying this argument that people are doing it for the environment.

There's a boom in PV at the moment because electricity prices have shortened the payback, it's not because people care about the planet.

Can I not be an EV driver and claim its doing very little for the planet?

Now regarding coal powered EV's I did find the below in a Reuters article. It hardly proves that a coal powered EV is cleaner than an ICE does it?

If the electricity to recharge the EV comes entirely from coal, which generates the majority of the power in countries such as China and Poland, you would have to drive 78,700 miles to reach carbon parity with the Corolla, according to the Reuters analysis of data generated by Argonne's model.

liamog

There you go, you've found the evidence to prove that EVs running on a coal grid are cleaner than an ICE equivalent. Fortunately that's not the Irish grid so the distance required here is much less.

So long as there is any parity within an expected operating mileage of a vehicle it is by definition cleaner. The particular grid mix of a given location affects that, but our grid which is primarily wind + gas is on the better end of the spectrum.

BKtje

I'm not the person who made the claim but here is one article which gives the break even point of a couple of cars depending on different scenarios.

Factbox: Lifetime carbon emissions of electric vehicles vs gasoline cars | Reuters I have read others with similar outcomes. This article dates from 2021 so is fairly recent.

If you don't feel like clicking on the link: with 100% coal powered electricity it would take about 140,000 km's for an EV to be "cleaner" according to this particular study. I believe the average life of a car is anywhere between 200,000 and 300,000 km's.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013663#Comment_120013663

Yes I understand our grid is cleaner and we are not talking about Ireland here.

I'm still not buying that a fully coal powered EV is better than an ICE though.

For starters the coal plant wouldn't be producing the exact amount of power to meet the EV demand. To guarantee supply it would be producing excess, wasted energy. This can of course be partially consumed elsewhere in systems but it needs to be considered.

Then I'm not sure about the battery longevity of an EV compared to an ICE. I don't believe they are around long enough or in sufficient quantities to really know how they will compare when they are say 15 years old. We need to consider the extra weight of an EV too, wear on the car, tyres etc., will they come unviable to maintain at a lower mileage than an ICE?

On the other hand I have no doubt EV batteries will get smaller, smarter and better with each passing year. Same as our mobile phones have evolved.

This journey is only beginning but I'm not a believer at that it will put a dent in that 8 billion tonnes of coal we consume each year.