EVs are worse for the environment (and other EV related myths)

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013728#Comment_120013728

It's the lifetime of the car that's the question there. I don't believe we know enough about EV's to know how they will stack up when they hit say 250000 kilometers.

I do expect battery evolution will make the EV's stronger in another few years though.

BKtje

There are a few Tesla's at over a million kilometers and at least 1 at over a million miles.

https://insideevs.com/news/592845/tesla-model-s-passes-1-million-miles/

To be faire the battery pack has been replaced twice and engine 8 times according to the article.

Still impressive but I'm sure he takes good care of his machine.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013953#Comment_120013953

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAh8HryVaeY

..

kuang1

Haven't had to use the ignore function for a while before today.

"EV owners don't care about the environment" 😂😂😂

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013201#Comment_120013201

Something like this from Australia?

I see a few other studies have been linked but you believe you're own unresearched or backed up opinion to researched facts.

https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/sustainability/sustainability-14-03444/article_deploy/sustainability-14-03444-v2.pdf

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014212#Comment_120014212

I'm sure a survey of EV owners would show that they care more about the environment on average than petrol or diesel drivers.

It seems if you're not a self sustaining hermit, wearing a grass skirt and eating veg you grow yourself you don't care about the environment according to some posters.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014456#Comment_120014456

But you said well proven. That article suggests it might be just 10% better.

That paper doesn't consider that to have "on demand" electricity for the coal EV the thermal plant needs to be producing an excess which won't always be utilized, so the 10% doesn't be long being eaten.

Now I get that in the real world EV's are great for soaking up excess electricity off peak but to say a coal EV is cleaner than an ICE is a bit dubious.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014473#Comment_120014473

You seem to have a fair chip on your shoulder about EV v ICE owners.

It's absolute condescending to claim EV owners care more about the environment than people who would love to own an EV but can't. You have nothing at all to support your attitude on that one.

There's a boom in PV panels at the moment and if you read the forums it's all about saving money and payback, not the environment, and EV owners are no different I'm sure.

I'm all in on electric and PV myself, I'll even be replacing my ice lawnmower with an electric because it's smart investment, I'm not sugar coating it by pretending I care more about the environment than my less fortunate neighbour who mightn't be able to afford the switch.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014680#Comment_120014680

So just a little bit better is not good enough. What percentage over 10-32% less would be acceptable to you? Also, the electricity produced and consumed by the network have to be in balance every second of the day. Not sure what you mean about "wasted energy" or "excess" unless it's the coal plants regularly venting the steam into atmosphere or something? Any excess or deficiency in the generated power will immediately begin to affect the frequency of the network by speeding up or down any other spinning generators in the network. That would be Bad I believe. Usually the generation is reduced by automatically dropping out some generating capacity when there is no demand.

Also earlier on you brought up the 8 billion tons of coal you keep referring to? Which region in the world consumes that? Or is some calculated figure from all of different types of fossil fuels used in Ireland?

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014975#Comment_120014975

It's not about what's acceptable to me, I'm not too bothered.

I'm lucky enough to be on the electric journey with my PV and electric lawnmower etc, but I'm not going around pretending to be a better environmentalist than an ICE driver who lives in an apartment with no charging options, space for PV panels or the money to invest.

Regarding coal I am referring to our record global consumption of 8 billion tonnes of coal. It doesn't matter who is burning it or where, it's all feeding into the atmosphere.

And we are all using this coal, directly or indirectly. Patting ourselves on the back about how great we are about burning less coal while polluting the atmosphere with burning gas instead.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014473#Comment_120014473

This discussion is going nowhere if people continue to hold extreme views that don't reflect reality. In most circumstances there is no doubt that buying a new EV is more environmentally friendly than buying a new ice. However, to claim that people buy EVs predominantly because of environmental concerns is less easy to justify. Most people I know bought EVs because the consider cars to be superior and cheaper to run. The opportunity to avail of a substantial €5k grant was also a strong incentive to the degree that they couldn't continue to look a gift horse in the mouth. Their major concern was to get their hands on their shiny new EV before the Gubberment pulled the grant. All of these people previously drove diesel, again because they were perceived as the superior option and cheaper to run. To be honest, the environment was the least of their concerns when buying diesel or EVs. Maybe these aren't typical EV owners

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015169#Comment_120015169

At least on PV discussion groups it's all about install costs, payback and what's a good investment or not.

Never seen anybody saying they are going ahead with a financially non viable system because it might still help the environment.

The reason PV installs are booming has nothing to do with the environment.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015169#Comment_120015169

All EV owners I know only looked at one due to environmental reasons. When the numbers also stacked up they purchased. I doubt many climate change deniers are driving EVs.

Striking difference in the Norwegian survey, 64% vs 25%. Not as big a difference in the UK

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015366#Comment_120015366

It does. Lots of pensioners installing thwm who won’t be around by the time they pay for themselves

I know my folks are getting A system installed for environmental reasons.

I guess it demonstrates that you are not the authority you think you are , and really don’t have a clue.

Melted

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013201#Comment_120013201

were do you think pertrol comes from? how much energy is used to extract it? the electricity alone used on the oil extrators/ oil rigs and pumps alone would be better sent to an EV no?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015906#Comment_120015906

So would they be prepared to continue to drive a dirty diesel until they could financially justify driving an EV?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120016270#Comment_120016270

I'd take issue with the use of 'lots' in this context. No doubt some would but the vast majority will install when do so is financially attractive.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120016859#Comment_120016859

Well they all switched 3 years ago so it appears not

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017018#Comment_120017018

Everyone you know who switched to an EV did so 3 years ago at a financial disadvantage to themselves purely so that they could contribute towards saving the environment. Fair play to them. That would make a good story for a climate change documentary.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120016863#Comment_120016863

It's all a bit weird, PV payback can be short and pensioners can live for a lot of years.

Writing off all these pensioners like that, including his parents, is a bit sick tbh.

A lot of EV drivers seem rattled that there are also EV drivers out there who don't care that it might be a coal powered EV, as long as it's cheaper than an ICE.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017105#Comment_120017105

Except that it was a financial advantage as explained previously.

Some people here seen shocked that some EV drivers might care about the environment

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018118#Comment_120018118

No some people take issue with the view that all EV drivers buy the cars predominantly on environmental grounds. The corollary of this view is that 'climate change deniers' wouldn't buy them because obviously they have no concern for the environment. The strange thing is that all the EV drivers you know have bought them on environmental grounds whereas all the ones I know have bought predominantly on financial grounds. What gives....

Ionised

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018193#Comment_120018193

What about the other reasons why some drive EVs?

My main reason is the preference to how an EV actually drives, plus the joy of preheating on winter mornings. Could not care less about financial sensibilities or the impact on the wider environment.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017123#Comment_120017123

1. Coal Driven EVs are always better on usage emissions than a Petrol car as shown by the article you sourced.
2. We're an Irish website, driving an EV here is predominately powered by Gas + Wind.

I don't think people are rattled, we're just irritated by the OPEC propaganda you seem to be sourcing your information from.

ELM327

Irish electricity is generally shown (by Eirgrid) as having single digit percentages of coal generation. EVs are generally charged at home, either at night and/or by solar PV. Night electricity tends towards being the greenest (but not always). PV is of course green.

Now I have PV and we have had 6 EVs so far. I have been driving EVs since 2016, and couldnt give a crap about environmentalist nonsense. For me it's about cost - TCO cost - ,dependable uptime and low maintenance.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018410#Comment_120018410

Regarding point 1 I'm not overly convinced, even the poster I replied to initially put forward evidence that amounted to maybe just 10% improvement, hardly going to dent those 8 billion tonnes of coal is it?

Regarding point 2, the problem is global warming, not Irish warming, just because we are using less coal here won't solve the global problem. ~80% of our energy comes from fossil fuels, so unless I'm missing something then ~80% of our global ev fleet is being powered by fossil fuels that might be just 10% better than if they were ICE instead.

This idea that ev's will help make the world carbon neutral is surely another big lie?

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018465#Comment_120018465

I'd like to see our energy mix on the coldest days last week, I'd be sure Moneypoint kept the lights on when the renewables took a few days off.

People need to rethink their close Moneypoint agenda. Given the situation with gas supplies this year are people really thinking this one through?

Moneypoint is our largest energy store, having 3 months, compared to just 5 days of gas reserves.

ELM327

I have no issue with coal, in fact it's better than russian gas. Long term we need to move away from all fossil fuels of course.

Close Moneypoint is fine, once you have a replacement. Which we don't.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018545#Comment_120018545

1 question, what's your proposed solution? Do nothing until we have a solution that reduces the problem all the way to zero in one move?

I can't get the data on my phone but eirgrid reported that on the record demand last week it was interconnection and batteries that kept the lights on.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018683#Comment_120018683

Well at the moment we are achieving little to nothing. Electric cars ain't solving it anyway.

Instead of closing Moneypoint in 2025 we are now seemingly converting it to oil instead. But we built Moneypoint because we were over exposed to oil in the 1970's oil crisis and now we are going back to increased oil dependency.

Our 1 million electric cars on the road by 2030 will be fun to watch for sure.