EVs are worse for the environment (and other EV related myths)

waterwelly

Look at those beautiful fossil fuels powering all our snazzy clean electric cars, all set to preheat before we sit into them on those frosty mornings.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018805#Comment_120018805

You can't take a snapshot like that. It means nothing. How about the snapshot when it's >75% wind?

For example, right now we're mostly cooking our dinner with wind.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018771#Comment_120018771

So still no solution, other than a tonne of whataboutery around anything that's currently being done.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018831#Comment_120018831

So what is being done?

Why is global coal consumption not falling?

Why is Moneypoint no longer being closed?

How is our million electric cars by 2030 looking?

Why did we cut duty on petrol and diesel?

Why do we keep missing our climate change targets?

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018849#Comment_120018849

A considerable contributing factor is I would wager because a lot of people refuse to believe the information put in front of them. E.g. EVs are cleaner than ICE over their lifetime.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018897#Comment_120018897

Here we go again. A whopping 10%, 30%, even 50% more efficient, so what? They are still fossil fuel powered cars destroying the planet, they still need coal to move.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018930#Comment_120018930

Yea...look at the thread title. Then I'll ask the same question, do we need a 100% solution before we do anything?

Sam Russell

I think the whole push for people to convert to EV vehicles is not to save the planet but to save the motor industry.

To save the planet, public transport, bicycles, and walking should be the solution. OK, include electric scooters provide a brilliant low carbon alternative to EV cars for mid range where there is no public transport. Of course, avoiding unnecessary journeys is better - by using zoom type meetings or simply not going if it can be avoided. Now many journeys are needed but many are not.

Now, reducing the cost of bus and train has increased use. That just needs to be expanded - more buses and trains and lower fares.

How can conveying one single person in a 2.5 tonne vehicle, however it is powered, be sustainable?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018897#Comment_120018897

I thought the problem is that too many people want to drive EVs. Demand far exceeds supply so is it individuals or corporations you should be focusing your attention on.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018465#Comment_120018465

+1. I would say the majority of EV owners are similarly motivated.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018545#Comment_120018545

Which causes more emissions burning coal in a power station to power an EV or burning refined oil to move a petrol car? Your own provided source shows that today even a coal powered EV is better than the petrol burning alternative. If you aren't convinced go fund a study and publish it in peer reviewed journals.

Next question, do the usage emissions of a petrol car improve as the generation sources on the grid changes?

It appears you are heavily invested in the continued success of the oil industry and want us to remain dependent on non indigenous sources of fuel, but the rest of us can see through your very shallow attempts to prop up the oil producing nations.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018930#Comment_120018930

Here's a post showing that they aren't primarily powered by coal on our grid.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018805#Comment_120018805

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018956#Comment_120018956

I'll tell you something. I know a lot of people late teens and into their 20's. Almost every one of them has car ownership as their top priority. When they get their car it's drive, drive, drive.

These are the ones that should be thinking about the environment, leading the charge, and it doesn't seem to be on their agenda at all.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120011606#Comment_120011606

Mod Note: Reminder of this, next time its warnings and thread bans

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019250#Comment_120019250

Your last paragraph is off the wall LOL.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019361#Comment_120019361

I can't quite tell what other motive you would have for repeatedly making such clearly false claims that are in fact so bad your own posts refute them. The only thing that makes sense to me is that you have an interest in success of the oil industry and are shilling for them.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019425#Comment_120019425

Seriously, how many times have I mentioned 8 billion tons of coal, would it not be the coal industry I would be shilling for? (Which I'm not LOL)

What false claims have I actually made anyway?

Somebody posted research showing coal ev's might be just 10% better than ICE, do you accept this figure?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019481#Comment_120019481

The coal industry isn't powering EVs in Ireland. The oil industry is powering combustion engine vehicles, the only reason to provide such false or exaggerated claims on EVs is to maintain the status quo of oil usage.

A 10% improvement in emissions in the worse case is still an improvement. So yes that is a false claim. Never mind the fact every modern grid is transitioning to lower emission generation sources.

You also claimed for Irish EV use "they need coal to move" despite having the knowledge to obtain screenshots from the Irish grid showing that coal is a very low percentage (7.8% at the time of your screenshot) of our grid generation.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018849#Comment_120018849

What is being done?

More than your glass is empty comments.

Why is global coal consumption not falling?

More people requires greater energy use. Coal is cheap and works for developing nations.

Why is Moneypoint no longer being closed?

It's still working and we still need the energy it produces while we transition. We are not ready. Plans change and timelines need to be moved sometimes.

How is our million electric cars by 2030 looking?

If you don't get the concept of a higher than expected target, I can't explain it to you. It's certainly better than no target by 2030.

Why did we cut duty on petrol and diesel?

Politicians like votes.

Why do we keep missing our climate targets?

Because they are set higher than we actually expect to achieve and so they should be. Hit the target and people get complacent.

You're jumping all over the place man. Either stick with Global, or Ireland only figures. Otherwise it looks like you're trolling to me.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018545#Comment_120018545

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019300#Comment_120019300

It appears the young people you know are in the minority

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41017049.html

Yes you are missing something, 80% of our energy is from fossil fuels you say and then assume this is the same as the % powering our EVs.

Except EVs aren't powered by petrol, diesel, turf, wood or home heating oil or anything else you put in your fireplace or fuel tank.

Akrasia

0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018805#Comment_120018805

What was the time and date that snapshot was taken?

Its likely there was plenty of wind offshore even if there was extremely calm conditions over land.

We need to hurry up and build the infrastructure to harness these resources. We're taking far too long

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018849#Comment_120018849

Coal is being burned because that infrastructure exists.

When we build the renewable infrastructure, then Coal won't be economically competitive anymore.

Most countries did nowhere neear enough over the past 2 decades to prepare for the transition (Including Ireland)

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019481#Comment_120019481

A BEV fueled entirely by Coal generated electricity is slightly better than ICE.

This is the worst case scenario. In the real world, a BEV is likely to be charged at night when demand is low, so it's much more likely to be powered by gas, or renewable generated power (on a windy night, demand is lower than supply so wind can power almost the entire grid

As renewables replace Coal and Gas power generation, the savings improve, while ICE cars will Always be powered by refined oil for their entire life cycle.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019532#Comment_120019532

Coal was 15.8% in my screenshot, so yes on that occasion we needed coal to move our EV's.

If you take that 10% and assume a hypothetical scenario of dedicated coal plants to power EV's with on demand power then that 10% will be in losses in the system, excess supply etc. Its a marginal improvement at best, certainly not the game changer some elements are claiming it to be.

Now in the real world I'm not disputing at all that grids are multi power source, EV's are great at soaking excess power at night, they are cleaner around cities and towns and ultimately provide a marginal improvement to the climate problem.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019747#Comment_120019747

I don't disagree with any of that at all except the second half of the last paragraph. We could have hydrogen combustion engines too.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019729#Comment_120019729

That snapshot was last week when we hit peak demand. Ideally battery power will come on in leaps and bounds so excess wind can be stored.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019770#Comment_120019770

Sorry your right, I scrolled one post too many. Even in the hypothetical situation of building new coal stations to replace every oil driven car we still see a net improvement in emissions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019792#Comment_120019792

Now you've nailed another fossil industry talking point. Hydrogen fuel is basically a dead end for automotive use due to the round trip inefficiency. It's very inefficient to use it in a combustion engine, even the more efficient fuel cell version doesn't hold up against BEVs. Hydrogen will likely be used on the grid for mutli day storage when the cost of green hydrogen is low that it makes sense to waste electricity creating it.

Right now hydrogen is pushed by fossil companies because the only economical way to create it is via steam reformation of natural gas. It's a great delaying tactic which thankfully now has mostly run it's course.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018805#Comment_120018805

Well done, I could go back a week and pull up a day we are at 75% Renewables. It’s the annual report you need to look at.

with little RES Coal is at only 15% that doesn’t suit your narrative..,,

still much cleaner having no tailpipe emissions in the cities and towns

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020090#Comment_120020090

Or you could just look 2 posts below mine where somebody posted today's 70% renewables.

Somebody yesterday posted our annual breakdown as well. Keep up.

I don't dispute any of these graphs. But when the **** hit the fan last week and we hit our all time high electricity demand it was coal, oil and gas that kept the lights on.

I don't dispute ev's give reduced tailpipe emissions in cities. Pity it's at the expense of people in places like La Guajira though.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020191#Comment_120020191

Yes. All that nasty coal you keep talking about. That’s being marginalised each year as our RES is increasing

good if you to think of the Columbians are we getting coal from there ? We had been using Russian cosl, I haven’t got an update on where it’s being sourced now.

but what about all those living in the Gulf of Mexico or war torn countries driving by oil extraction. No pity for them ? We are pushing towards RES. , EVs reduce fossil fuel reliance.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020324#Comment_120020324

Yes, as EV drivers it's the dirty little secret a lot of us, including you, know nothing about. Our little blood mine, 3/4 the size of county Dublin (think about that for a minute, then think about it again) kept our EVs moving last week.

A few years ago, being super cool, we switched to Russian coal. But now we have quietly switched back, but you won't hear Eamon Ryan talk about that.

By the way, last week, when we really needed power, our RES clocked in at a whopping 9%.