EVs are worse for the environment (and other EV related myths)

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: What electric car is actually available?.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262154#Comment_119262154

I sincerely hope that you don't believe the fallacy that E car are more enviormentally friendly, that is simply not the case and the deeper you dig the more this will become apparent. The carbon foot print of E cars is bigger and deeper that what some would like you to believe...

Have you any independent references for that?

Its widely accepted that EV's have a larger footprint to produce but quickly recover it once you start driving it.

But the savings re. for example the above mentioned Audi and a new E car (in the same league) is substantial

That might be true (depends on mileage) but comparing an "old" car against a new car isn't an apples to apples comparison. You can buy secondhand 191 EV's too for similar money.

Not saying KildareP should buy an EV, just not convinced its for the reasons you've put forward.

slave1

This myth again, EVs have reduced carbon footprint once in use and this quickly "betters" ICE cars, even better if EV charged off night rate in Ireland which can be predominantly Renewable and ultimately better with charging from home off PV

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262154#Comment_119262154

Nope. You're way off with that one. The oil companies love you though, so there's that.

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263363#Comment_119263363

...Ghost (this feels spooky!) In this instance I was not replying to the OP (893bet) but to Kildare P (it's best that you get your facts right before shooting / SPOOKING😉 the messenger ! )

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262977#Comment_119262977

Some years ago when E cars first arrived on the scene I was convinced (at first glance) that they, in the fullness of time, would almost eliminate the carbon footprint of the motoring 'world' But gradually as I studied, read and researched the subject I became convinced that we were / are being sold a pup. I'm not suggesting that ICE cars are better overall for the enviorment than E cars but the difference is so miniscule and in many cases it can be proven that buying a used ICE is better than a new E car . Without going into the complex details ...suffice to say that there's a heck of a lot more to the carbon footprint of a car than the emissions that come out the tail pipe !

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265774#Comment_119265774

Yes. And there are people who research this for a living. BEVs are what we need. Now. Buying an ICE if you can avoid it is the wrong move. There are untold millions being pumped into the media trying to muddy the waters. Don't add to it.

liamog

I'm not suggesting that ICE cars are better overall for the enviorment than E cars but the difference is so miniscule and in many cases it can be proven that buying a used ICE is better than a new E car.

That's really great @monseiur that you've done the calculations can you share them with us to show how you came to that conclusion?

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265774#Comment_119265774

I'm not suggesting that ICE cars are better overall for the enviorment than E cars but the difference is so miniscule and in many cases it can be proven that buying a used ICE is better than a new E car .

That's a straw man argument though. What happens when all the used ICE cars are gone?

Of course, existing ICE cars should be kept running and not needlessly scrapped for new EV's (but no one is suggesting we do that).

If you are buying a new car either way you need to compare like with like.... new ICE vs new EV and do the full well-wheel analysis for both... which has been done.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262154#Comment_119262154

Id concur on that carbon footprint issue.

The attraction for the government is that the carbon footprint will be created in the countries mining and producing the vehicle

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058252347/evs-are-worse-for-the-environment-the-myth

Fine mod work.

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265833#Comment_119265833

You say that ''buying an ICE if you can avoid it is the wrong move'' That's a sweeping statement and does not live up to scrutiny. I happen to know a retired couple whose car was written off in an accident last year (fortunatley for them car was parked, unoccupied at the time) Long story short they ended up buying an EV as a replacement (against the advise of their son and others) They are the gullible type who believed the ''green noise'' and thought they were doing their bit for the enviorment by going electric. Their annual mileage is very low less than 4,000 miles - shopping, mass, doctor, the odd Sunday drive etc. They were advised (for economic reasons !) to buy a used petrol car VW Golf / Toyota Corolla or similar which would cost less than a third of what they paid for the new EV which is parked up 95% of the time.

Now , economics apart, consider the carbon footprint of the used ICE which was already created to a large extend - with their low mileage the amount they'd add to it is miniscule - compared to the carbon footprint of a new EV which had to be newly manufactured for them. The battery is the obvious main culprit when it comes to the long term carbon footprint of EV's including the exorbitant cost of recycling it after it's relatively short lifespan. But in this instance there's also the mining of materials used, the electricity, the cost of producing every component, the transportation costs from the other side of the world etc. etc. the list is endless. More of the world's finite resources had to be used to produce yet another car when a car was already available. I visited Cuba some years ago and was surprised to see cars in everyday use there that dated from the late 1950's, one cabbie told me that his Chevy was a 1958 model !

There should be some bonus or incentive for car owners, whether ICE or EV to keep their cars for longer, instead ICE owners are penalised and are encouraged to scrap what are good cars with years of service left in them - a visit to any scrap yard will prove this. Main dealer scrappage schemes should be banned and instead, for a start, all cars over 10 years of age should be free of road tax once NCT is passed. Most cars if looked after have a lifespan of 15 to 25 years easy. Why buy yet another new suit and give away your lightly worn suit (which may just need a light dry cleaning) to the rag & bone man !🤣 The world's resources are finite.

liamog

There should be some bonus or incentive for car owners, whether ICE or EV to keep their cars for longer, instead ICE owners are penalised and are encouraged to scrap what are good cars with years of service left in them - a visit to any scrap yard will prove this. Main dealer scrappage schemes should be banned and instead, for a start, all cars over 10 years of age should be free of road tax once NCT is passed. Most cars if looked after have a lifespan of 15 to 25 years easy. Why buy yet another new suit and give away your lightly worn suit (which may just need a light dry cleaning) to the rag & bone man !🤣 The world's resources are finite.

@monseiur adding to my request for numbers re the break even point, can you now provide sources for the short lifespan of batteries and the recycling difficulties, it seems your insight does not match the lived experience of many of the members of this forum. I'm beginning to think you may just be making this up as you go along.

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267336#Comment_119267336

You're right. The experience of one couple who you know proves it. You really do need to actually come to the table with something here apart from citing "green noise" and "narrative".

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267336#Comment_119267336

If they were that guilable, why didn’t they listen to their son?

eagerv

My neighbours, also elderly, changed their very old ICE last year; was literally on it's final legs. They were advised by their family and others not to touch an EV, which they wanted to buy. I certainly didn't encourage them (I was asked), a little worried about their age and new tech.

Must say I was surprised to see a shiny new e208 outside their house one day. I asked them recently how it was going, their reply was they love it, going on much more trips (Usually within range) to visit friends, drives etc. They said they would never go back. Not only are they lapping up the tech, but they have installed a solar system with battery on their house.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265621#Comment_119265621

I see that you were not directly responding to the OP, but the post you were responding to was not asking for the "EV or ICE" question either. The poster was within the context of the thread and was broadly similar to the OP, hence the minor confusion.

Not attacking you, but it does seem that when people have decided they want to go the EV route and are asking questions about what to buy and how to fit an EV into their lifestyle, there's always one or two posters who go out of their way to discourage the OP and others from going EV and it's almost always with outdated and incorrect information, like batteries needing replacement after a couple of years.

Don't be scared. I'm a friendly Ghost (and a gun owner 😎 ).

liamog

it's almost always with outdated and incorrect information, like batteries needing replacement after a couple of years.

I do find it amazing how many people's EV knowledge seems to be based on the G-Wiz

PaulRyan97

Just to satisfy anyone's curiosity about C02 emissions over the lifetime of a car I put together a quick example.

All variables are based on the current situation in Ireland as of June '22.

If we took an average lifespan as being 10 years then the Golf would emit roughly 23.9 tons to the ID.3s 15.8 tons.

*Taking average C02 intensity per kWh from the national grid in June '22 (340g).

I'm assuming an annual mileage of 15,000km which is the Irish average. With that it would take nearly 3 years for the ID.3 to breakeven CO2 wise assuming all your charging is done from the grid.

This is of course affected by that fact that the CO2 intensity of our grid was rather high this month. The last full year they published data from was 2020 and that had an intensity of 296g which would mean a breakeven in 2.5 years.

ddarcy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268815#Comment_119268815

So it’s is a debate, I’ll ask a few questions here.

1. no one said a golf will have lower emissions. I think that’s implied. What’s the environmental cost CV of creating the golf / id3. You need to add that on to your 2.5 years above.
2. a point which will be of annoyance. VW wants the IDs to have a 10-11 year lifespan (was told this when I got an ID3). A golf can easily have double that. So you need to count in manufacturing of an additional ID3 for comparison to the lifetime of a golf.
3. really to annoy the green crowd here, but lowering emissions does not mean better for the environment. Republicans in the US were right when they said emissions would only be pushed to other countries for not signing the Paris climate accord.

to give an example of this. Ireland will reduce methane by 10% and the greenies will lap it up and pat themselves on the back convincing themselves they’re doing their part.

But supermarkets with incredibly low waste (think fractions of 1pct) will be expanding offers of meat products. So how are they going to do this? Well we signed an agreement with Brazil to supply meat. So take a farting cow in Leitrim. Is it better to keep it in Leitrim or to burn down the Amazon rainforest as there’s no farmland in Brazil and rear it there along with shipping it back to Europe? This is how ireland and Europe is dealing with climate change (basically making it worse). E cars are in this as well.

hiwever I believe in the phrase you can’t make a perfect omelette without braking an egg. So we don’t have the solution yet but this is a step in the right direction. There are still issues to overcome though.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268946#Comment_119268946

Actually I heard that cows emit more methane from burping than farting

Just to derail this conversation further 🤣

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268946#Comment_119268946

a point which will be of annoyance. VW wants the IDs to have a 10-11 year lifespan (was told this when I got an ID3). A golf can easily have double that. So you need to count in manufacturing of an additional ID3 for comparison to the lifetime of a golf.

I just don't believe that. I don't care what the salesman told you.

They are offering an 8yr warranty on the battery so the idea that it will be dead on the road 2yrs later is just a joke, to be honest.

I agree with you on point 3 and in particular around the farming sector. The EU is shooting itself in the foot and will end up importing food as a result.... madness. Not relevant in this thread though.

I'd rather my car be driven by electricity from our grid and have the ability to further clean up our grid as time progresses (already at 30% renewable) than to be forever at the mercy of the p*cks controlling the oil/gas which is doing immeasurable damage at multiple levels (not just environmental). The sooner we get away from fossil fuels we will be in the better of it as an economy (forget environmental reasons even).

ddarcy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269095#Comment_119269095

Don’t disagree with you on getting free of oil and gas. We have wind, hydro, solar etc and really should have more renewable than we have now.

the cow example was to show in real life how we are dealing with things. We lower emissions but in actuality pass them on and make them worse.

for ecars it would be interesting to see the breakdown by year of cars sold and are still on the road. That’ll tell us their true longevity. Obviously we’re dealing with low numbers to start.

one last one for ecars , how many companies are marketing helping global climate change? None, they just market zero emissions, reducing emissions, etc. why? They just make you think that and Because especially in the US they’ll get done for false advertising. That’s not slap on the wrist stuff, the could get class action lawsuits against them (see VW still getting wrung up for dieselgate). We’ve been manipulated into thinking lowering emissions is all that needs to be done, when in actuality we’re making things worse in almost all instances.

Electronic cars are brilliant for air and noise pollution in the towns and city's.

But are they really that more environmentally friendly? I Very doubt it in my opinion.

If you wanna save the environment walk or cycle.

mackerski

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269333#Comment_119269333

We have electronic cars now?

innrain

Coincidental or maybe not the last podcast of fully charged is on the same subject. How the hec after 12 years we keep repeating the same myths spewed by some nuts without any facts behind, just to fits ones agenda. It might be boring for some

@PaulRyan97 nice work in quantifying the costs. When looking at carbon footprint, you're missing the greenhouse gases produced in the process of extraction, transport and refining. The well-to-wheels as described in this article (pay-walled but any good library in IE will help). Data is hard to find, complex to quantify but it exists and it is significant. That needs to be added to have a true comparison as at the moment you use the grid data for the EVs but not well-to-wheels for ICEs. How much CO2 is produced for the 1l of petrol from the crude extraction, transport across the seas, refining and pumping it into the tank. Another trap that we are falling into since 2008, is to think in terms of CO2 only, when burning petrol/fuel in engines create much more heavy and toxic gases which we call GHG to sound a bit less harmful.

One point I'd like to make is that irrespective of the energy source, the electric motors are proven to be more efficient than their thermal counterparts. In the above comparison we speak of 49.8 kWh/100km for Golf vs 15.6 kWh/100km, so basically x3. The increased access to renewable energy sources and advances in energy storage put the ICE in economic disadvantage. There are still problems but that is progress.

Not going into the farming GHG as it will dilute the discussion.

PaulRyan97

@innrain Of course yes, well to wheel should be absolutely considered. I took a sandbox approach here in only calculating carbon footprint based on the energy used by each car, ignoring the carbon footprint of actually getting that energy where it needs to be.

I agree, the data is incredibly difficult to quantify however it is clear that the carbon intensity of extracting, refining and transporting petrol is several orders of magnitude is far greater than the mix of fuels we currently use in our grid. Also, it's footprint is unlikely to shrink in the coming decade, while our electricity grid will continue to lower its carbon intensity, further widening the gap. The current target is 100g/kWh by 2030 which would give a g/km output of just 16g and lower the annual emissions to just 234kg. That would mean a breakeven point (assuming that production emissions have somehow not dropped) of about 1.8 years.

liamog

The best analysis I've seen was conducted by Volvo, they did a full Carbon footprint report comparing the C40 recharge vs the XC40 over a mileage of 200,000km

Their LCA showed that a C40 operated on the EU grid would have a lifetime emissions 42 tonnes of CO2 versus the XC40 of 59 tonnes.

The most notable takeaway I found was the the use phase phase emission reduced by 27 tonnes, versus a manufacturing emissions of 26.4 tonnes. Taken to the extreme this means the emission of producing an XC40 and immediately scrapping it to replace with a C40 recharge would result in 59.2 tonnes of CO2 versus just using an XC40 for 200,000 with 59 tonnes.

slave1

That's actually interesting, I know GIGA in the US has massive PV for the production facility, I wonder does either Berlin or Shanghai have that advantage also to bring down Tesla carbon emission at manufacturing stage?

Ireland would be different (*from a strict Ireland only perspective) as the phases up to end of manufacturing emit in other parts of the world and we have great renewables at off peak rate.

At a micro level, those charging off home PV would be bringing things right down, finances aside, all roofs in the country should be plastered in PV to reduce carbon footprint

unabashed_goldfish

You'd also imagine that battery manufacturing/processing impact would be less for battery chemistry like LFP ones (e.g. shipping in the base model 3). No nickel or cobalt which have a fairly hefty environmental impact. Not sure the impact of solid state batteries in the future too.

Bovakinn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk-LnUYEXuM

Every claim made in this video is backed up by citing their sources. Well worth a look if you think EVs are worse for the environment.

PaulJoseph22

https://news.sky.com/story/mineral-rush-how-chiles-mega-mines-are-critical-to-our-electric-future-12643616

Wanderer78

yes, building electric vehicles is still very harmful to the environment, but we cannot build vehicles without having any negative impact on the planet, this could always be the case....

the_amazing_raisin

Well I'm glad Chile finally elected a social democratic government so the people of Chile may be able to benefit from their mineral wealth

I imagine they'll do better than any of the theocratic monarchies or a corrupt dictatorships which control the fossil fuel industry

Furze99

Posters bang on about the the carbon footprints of EVs and in passing blithely mention that they hope they'll be run on 'clean' renewable energy from the Irish grid. As if the electricity just appears by magic from these sources. Reality is that onshore and offshore wind farms have substantial carbon footprints involved in their own construction & maintenance, never mind the environmental damage caused in their construction. Ditto for solar farms and panels, battery storage and pumped storage schemes.

We may need to do these things as oil, coal & gas gets less plentiful. But there's absolutely no free lunch for any form of motorised travel. One's not much better than the other. If you really want to be Green, then walk or cycle as much as you possibly can and never fly.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119279797#Comment_119279797

while I totally agree that any activity costs carbon, it has been shown that an onshore wind farm becomes carbon neutral in about 5 to 10 years and all the remaining life is genuinely “green”.

not sure what similar analysis of solar shows.

there’s about 3gw of onshore wind in that age bracket or older so plenty of genuinely green green electricity on the grid.

PaulJoseph22

https://news.sky.com/video/share-12644023

unkel

@KCross - "I'd rather my car be driven by electricity from our grid and have the ability to further clean up our grid as time progresses (already at 30% renewable) than to be forever at the mercy of the p*cks controlling the oil/gas which is doing immeasurable damage at multiple levels (not just environmental)"

Well said. And most EVs charge at night which is already at 50% renewable (as per your own research) and climbing every year. Personally, since I installed my zappi charge point last month, my cars have been charged 100% from the sun at home. None of this is reflected in the above calculations. And I'm not some rich bloke in a big house. My income is about average and I live in a small semi-D home in a Dublin suburb. My roofs are plastered with solar PV panels though (and also solar thermal tubes). I personally use almost zero fossil fuel for my house / cars.

slave1

There you go, break even at 3.5yrs....much sooner if charging at night rate/solar PV like a good few here

Are electric vehicles really better for the environment? (rte.ie)

liamog

Mod Note: Posts deleted, poster was previously warned that the EV forum is not the right place for a general debate on motoring, stick to the topic of the comparative environmental impact of EVs versus non electrified cars

Mr Q

The amount of times some fool has told me that the battery in my car won't last 5 years is hard to believe.

And they genuinely believe it to be true and that anyone driving an EV is the fool.

I assume this is also why they think they are not better for the environment. They're misinformed.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119279797#Comment_119279797

Make you sure you don't walk too fast though as that produces more CO2 than walking slowly. Bikes have a CO2 manufacturing cost as well, as do bike lanes, foot paths and street lights.

EVs are far greener over their life than an equivalent ice and come with the benefit of no tail pipe emissions. Nobody is advocating for replacing active travel or Public transport with EVs and it's a total straw man argument which only serves the likes of Exxon and Toyota who are lobbying hard to be allowed to keep destroying the climate by burning oil as long as possible for their own short term gain.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119288968#Comment_119288968

Says you, yet again conveniently ignoring the carbon footprint & environmental degradation concerned with the generation & storage of all this electricity whether by fossil fuels or renewables or nuclear. I suppose what's out of sight is conveniently out of mind and can be overlooked.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119289128#Comment_119289128

Nobody is ignoring it, it's just not as bad as the alternative. That's all.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119289128#Comment_119289128

We live in a modern society where we prefer to keep our creature comforts and lifestyles as best we can, choosing EV over ICE is a positive step. Choosing solar and wind over coal and oil is another positive step. Unless you live in cave, walk everywhere and dress in fallen leaves, then your carbon footprint is going to be high. We all know there is a cost for setting up and building renewables and EVs. Nobody is saying otherwise, but these carbon/environmental costs are offset within months in most cases. The same cannot be said of fossil fuels....which has a greater level of supporting infrastructure to begin. Are you suggesting we don't switch to EVs and renewable energies?

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119287286#Comment_119287286

While I don't necessarily agree with the slopes in that graph I do agree with the general trends and the fact that there is an intersection point. The important bit is on the right hand side of the intersection point. Those lines diverge which mean that every km driven on diesel has a greater impact on us, and it could be avoided. It is beneficial the fact that all of these are questioned and the EVs are build with the environmental impact in mind. When ICEs took off nobody cared or questioned what happens with the by-products resultant from burning petrol. They even added lead to it and it took 100 years to give it up although it is a well known harmful substance.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119289128#Comment_119289128

It's not ignored, but it is decoupled from the operation of transport. A conventionally powered vehicle is essentially fixed on day one and will always have a given emissions per km. The advantage of electrified transportation is that we separate out the generation of electricity from the application of that electricity to generate motion. A BEV sold today can be completed operated from sources that have zero carbon impact after installation, it can also be operated by supplying all it's electricity from a diesel generator.

Don't fall in to the trap of allowing perfect to be the enemy of good, as a nation we should be reducing our reliance on external consumables, burning oil is a huge part of our imports and reducing that has a positive effect on our balance of trade. There is a reason there is so much propaganda out their against electrification, the countries that currently export oil see that our reliance on them decreases as we move to indigenous energy sources. I hope they are compensating you well for parroting their talking points.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119289229#Comment_119289229

We really can't be prefacing environmental discussions on the basis of 'keeping our creature comforts and lifestyles'. You're absolutely correct to say that most people do approach these discussions on that basis, but something has to give. If we do maintain our creature comforts and lifestyles, we won't have a planet to hand on to our children and grandchildren.

waterwelly

Considering the number of new cars that go on roads every day, the big switch to electric cars will do little to reduce emissions over the next 10 years.

The only way to reduce emissions is to kill people.

Tailpipe emissions help there.

The irony.

slave1

Well that's a bit extreme, surely kill the cows first!

Anyhoo, we got to be honest, a lot of folk make the switch from new ICE to new EV for financials, this means fiscal policy is working and the only way to eat this elephant is one bite at a time. End result is all that matters. I have not used petrol or diesel in 5 years. I am currently around 4000kms self generated PV range this year, want to keep chipping away at it. Come winter I will have a coal fire, I'm no tree hugger but do a lot where I can

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119289316#Comment_119289316

Studies of locations where there has been a large switch to zero emission vehicles show significant increases in air quality as the number of zero emission vehicles increases. If you are interested Oslo is a great case study as the market penetration of EVs there means around 1 in 5 vehicles are fully zero emissions. Similarly London can be used to show the effect of the ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone). Most cities have a fixed capacity for number of vehicles per road, if a road carried 4,000 vehicles per hour before, and now carries 3500 vehicles plus 500 zero emission vehicles you've already reduced roadside emissions by 12.5%.