EVs are worse for the environment (and other EV related myths)

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007196#Comment_120007196

Well unfortunately people buy new cars sometimes, so would it be better if they bought EVs or diesel?

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007196#Comment_120007196

Fringe example to make the point clear: If I sell on a 20 year old car which has about 5 realistic years left in it to buy a new EV, the next owner to buy the old car will drive it to it's grave. They might have just had a 25 year old car scrapped, or maybe it's their first car. Either way, I'm now driving an environmentally friendlier car while my near EOL car gets used until the grave.

Bicycles and buses are not practical for many of us. Musk knows this and pushed Tesla to become the leader of the EV world. Had he not, spotting an EV on the road would still be a very rare sight. Only 5 years ago, seeing another EV would happen maybe every other day and would usually be the same few on the local roads, or at a public charger. This year, I can't complete any journey without seeing several of them. This is better than the vast number of ICE vehicles belching smoke and particulates out the tail pipe at far higher concentrations in our communities than an EV ever could.

Lets not venture back into the brake dust and tire particles discussion. It's been done to death.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999483#Comment_119999483

Mod Note: We've a whole thread for discussion of this chestnut, do not bring it up on other threads within this subforum. Discussion moved

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007196#Comment_120007196

Only in very limited cases where the choice is between buying the new car and doing very low mileage versus scrapping the car that you are selling on. It's quite typical for people parroting oil industry lines to completely ignore the fact that cars are very rarely scrapped when a person upgrades.

The manufacturing emissions argument relies on scrapping a car by burying instead of material recovery, and assumes that the vehicle being replaced was going to be used for extremely low mileage resulting in minimum usage emissions. Every vehicle on the road will have a break even point where emissions from use are higher than replacing with a new zero emission vehicle. It's a pity we don't have an easy comparison site where we can plug the numbers and work out how many km's it should be before we replace a Fiesta with an e208.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007196#Comment_120007196

This is only true if your car is near end of life. From purely a carbon emissions point of view, you'd be better off to scrap your existing car and buy a new EV. Obviously from a material/resource use that's a waste.

The goal is for people buying new cars to buy EV instead of ice. Never heard anyone suggest that 3yr old petrols should be scrapped

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008371#Comment_120008371

Some people won’t be satisfied until every town and city in Ireland looks like

bicycle lights will be banned because they have batteries. Hi-viz vests won’t be necessary because the only cars will be in a museum.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008454#Comment_120008454

Yes, it's a giant conspiracy to ban car ownership 😉

I mean we're already in one myth thread, maybe we can make this a meta thread 😁

the_amazing_raisin

My favourite part of this thread is unsubscribing from it 😁

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007289#Comment_120007289

It's a bit like saying, well unfortunately people hit you over the head sometimes, so would it be better if they hit you with a baseball bat or a crowbar? Neither option is particularly good for your head.

Of course, it is better in a simple scenario of a direct choice between two new cars, the EV is the less harmful option, but it is still absolutely harmful to society.

If I have the choice of replacing my diesel today with a new EV that I'm going to run for ten years and then scrap it, or keep my diesel running for ten years, it is far from clear that the emissions impact of manufacturing and disposal of the new EV would outweigh the savings in running cost emissions from the diesel to the EV.

Having a target of a million EVs is honestly ridiculous, we really need a target of having fewer cars on the road, not different cars.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008713#Comment_120008713

Why would you scrap the EV after 10 years? That would be foolish considering we still have 13 year old Leafs doing a perfectly good job for their owners. Its now possible to upgrade them with bigger batteries nd the old ones are repurposed.

That old smoke machine won't be scrapped unless you destroy it. It would be used by another person and you could drive your cleaner EV. Most of the materials are recyclable or reusable on these EVs you like to paint in a bad light.

We don't have the transport options to allow swathes of people to do without a car. Cars will remain a necessity for a long time, so better we at least encourage the cleaner option EV.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008469#Comment_120008469

Maybe you haven't heard of Dublin City Council. Over the years, they've been making it very difficult for motorists to get into and out of he city centre. Roads are made one way, closed to cars and pedestrianised. It takes far longer to navigate to one destination and causes mor congestion. They've publicly stated they want to discourage motorists from coming into the city on many occasions. Fairview is the latest in a long line of projects to deter people from driving into the city centre. If only they were so enthusiastic about dealing with the junkies on our best known streets from terrorising those brave enough to frequent the place.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300702#Comment_119300702

We’ve negative PSO for the coming year

https://www.cru.ie/media-release-cru-publishes-public-service-obligation-levy-for-2022-23/

Timfy

One issue that I think is overlooked is that, despite some posters claims to the contrary, I don't think that you are going to see many 10-20 year old EVs on the road in the future.

Out here in the sticks you will see many 30+ year old corollas etc still soldiering on, passing emissions tests at the NCT and being kept running for nothing. Now with an EV, even with the best will in the world, a battery pack isn't going to even come close. And the technology involved with regard to apps, displays etc is moving at a rate that means you are relying on tech and software that will be probably be unsupported and obsolete in 5 years time. Who here amongst us uses a 5+ year old phone... No-one as we're all early adopters and love our cutting edge tech, be it a car, a phone or whatever.

Owning an EV at the moment is fine and dandy as everyone has an almost new one but 5+ years down the road we are going to have to scrap far more vehicles than we do at present, and therefore produce far more vehicles. People who only have "second hand" budgets are relegated to cars with only 60% or less of the original capacity and control systems that will be horribly dated, creating a two tier "them and us" situation. With ICE you can still find a well maintained performance vehicle for less than €5000 that performs almost exactly as well as a new model.

The recycling argument doesn't stand up... EVs are made of steel, plastic and chemicals just the same as an ICE. Yes you may be able to sell your depleted battery to a solar power enthusiast but at the end of the day both EV and ICE are as recyclable as each other.

Not pro or anti EV but they do seem to be heading towards being disposable tech, a €60,000 mobile phone shall we say and consuming more and more resources to build more and more cars with shorter lifespans seem counter intuitive to the Green Message (tm)

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008868#Comment_120008868

No, EV and ICE are not ac recyclable,

as the batteries for EVs are recycled so you. Don’t have to extract from the earth again where as with ICE you will still be extracting oil and fighting wars for it.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008868#Comment_120008868

Tell us more about where these drivers of bangers get their free fuel?

After 30 years on the road I'm sure they've gotten a bit of maintenance too. I had a car hit 300,000 km before and it was far from free to keep on the road.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008868#Comment_120008868

Battery packs can be refurbished, upgraded, replaced or repurposed. Why are some people ignoring this?

I bought a Leaf 5 years ago from an owner living ou in the sticks. The limited range of 100km didn't stop the owner from taking advantage of the cheap motoring it afforded him and his wife. 60% of my current battery would give me around 250kms per charge. Plenty of room for pottering around the sticks.

The Real President Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119279894#Comment_119279894

How exactly can it become carbon neutral ever ?

It would have to sequester the carbon used in it's production ?

Eoinbmw

The biggest con is the majority of EV owners claiming they give a feck about the environment!

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008968#Comment_120008968

The carbon saved by producing electricity from wind (zero) versus if it had been produced via alternative means (not zero). So not zero carbon, but neutral in that it has saved the same amount as it has cost to build.

It is true of course that the only truely carbon neutral electricity is no electricity. But I think we all like to accept the premise that the lights need to stay on.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009004#Comment_120009004

I think you’d be surprised, I certainly do

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009009#Comment_120009009

That's like saying it's carbon neutral to take every second week off driving, cause you're avoiding emitting the same amount of carbon one week as you do emit the next.

To be carbon neutral you have to remove the same amount from the atmosphere as you add to it, very few people can do this.

Some companies claim to do this by buying carbon credits which is often essentially your method, which is why the whole carbon offset market is a scam.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009020#Comment_120009020

That's not the same thing at all. In that example your just reducing your activity every 2nd week, I.e. turning the lights off.

In the scenario described, activity levels remain the same, but the same amount of carbon used in manufacture of turbines has been avoided by not having to use fossil fuels to generate those electrons later on.

The concept is simple, and honing in on my use of the word neutral is obfuscation at this point.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009025#Comment_120009025

What's the difference? In my analogy you generate x kg of carbon one week and don't generate x kg the next, in your turbine example you generate y tonnes of carbon in production and construction and don't generate z tonnes during the rest of its lifetime. Granted the ratios are different but it's neutral (having 0 net output) in absolutely no sense of the word.

Of course it's miles better than an equivalent fossil turbine but neutral is the wrong word.

Melted

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008868#Comment_120008868

Im sorry for calling this out and im not trying to take a dig at you but alot of these points I see parroted everywhere and are complete misinformed tripe. The stuff your saying about having to scrap more cars after 5 years is totaly disingenuous or misinformed.

It was hard to read after you stated a 30 year old Corolla will be kept running for nothing, ive worked on engines and do my own maintence and nothing is kept running for "nothing".

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008807#Comment_120008807

There’s a big difference between recyclable and actually being recycled.

We should be focusing on providing those additional transport options ( public transport and sustainable transport) rather than subsidising and promoting private cars, of whatever fuel.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009108#Comment_120009108

Is that not what's happening at the moment? EV subsides have been declining for the last 3 years. Gone is the business grant, BIK relief being phased out, free public charging is gone, personal grants have been cut

Record spending (by a few hundred percent) on active travel.

Huge increase in the rural public transport network with local link.

First cut in public transport costs, maybe ever?

Commitments signed for bus connects, dart plus, Metro, Cork city railway etc....

Unfortunately there are huge parts of Ireland where cars will be needed for the foreseeable future, and it'll be much better if we can make them EVs instead of diesel.

Timfy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009085#Comment_120009085

Hi Melted,

Apologies... "for nothing" is a phrase used from where I'm originally from meaning very little, not literally nothing at all. 😊

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008868#Comment_120008868

The keep an ICE car on the road for 30 years thing is all well and good.

Meanwhile in the real world what actually happens is the following..

Mondeo diesel

250,000 miles on clock.

Needs 3,000 euro worth of work.

You can buy a nicer Mondeo for 3 k with lower miles.

So you scrap the 250 k mile car and move to the other Mondeo.

The thing is the nicer Mondeo has been replaced with a newer car.

It's a chain of events.

Also a 30 year old Corolla is an E10 - one of the most reliable cars ever built.

The idea that most ICE cars at euro 6 are going to match an E10 Corolla is ambitious to say the least.

When you consider all the modern safety features, dual clutch transmissions, adblue and other emissions stuff and more.

Still lots of things to go wrong.

Absolutely we should be looking at how we can sustainably keep EVs and other low emissions vehicles going longer into the future.

Healthy trade in values on old batteries for reuse or recycling in exchange for a replacement certified battery would help massively in keeping 12 year old EVs on the road longer in future.

Facilitated by work on developing the ability to consistently refurbish existing battery packs as they come off a car when this can be done safely and to good quality.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009151#Comment_120009151

Why is it always a decision between EV and diesel? Why not petrol, petrol hybrid or phevs? The reason so many people are inappropriately driving diesel in this country is that, in response to environmentalists concerns, the Govt effectively shut down the purchase of petrol cars by introducing punitive CO2 based VRT and car tax rates, particulary post 2008.

When I was replacing my diesel 7 seater 2 years ago, I looked at importing a petrol or phev from UK but the VRT and tax rates were simply ridiculous so I just bought another diesel.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009014#Comment_120009014

Hardly.

If people genuinely cared about the planet they wouldn't be driving a car at all.