EVs are worse for the environment (and other EV related myths)

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826332#Comment_122826332

I would doubt it. Very hard to quantify, but easier than having to do the same for road and motorway networks, filling stations and other ancillary requirements for the car and other road using transport.

CelticRambler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826332#Comment_122826332

Any per km figures for rail for example should presumably include the associated carbon footprint and energy cost of the railway stations […] or are these issues never counted as part of the overall and just left in limbo ?

Left in limbo, for the most part. In the context of general economic efficiency, coach services were rated way better than rail because they benefited from the inherent flexibility of an existing road network allowing for rapid changes of route in respons to customer demand. But other than the notional financial and ecological cost of a brand new road (motorway, bypass, expanded capacity, etc …) I've never seen anyone try to work out the carbon footprint of a road that was originally built by the Romans and is still in use today.

On the other hand, neither have I seen anyone attribute a value to infrastructure that isn't being used any more, just sits there getting old and poorly maintained. You'll sometimes see EV vs. ICE studies refer to the cost of eventually decommissioning a hydrocarbon service station, but rarely is there any heed paid to the millions of tonnes of metal, plastic and rubber just sitting on a square of concrete for twenty hours of every day because it's considered "normal" these days for every Western adult to have their own private motor vehicle available for use whenever they want. Should we assign an environmental cost to assets, infrastructure and fuel that are "on hold" for our future convenience?

No matter which side you're on, when you get into one of these [X] is better/worse than [Y] arguments, as soon as you start digging into the detail, the situation reveals itself to be a hell of a lot more complex than a ten-word headline.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123695954#Comment_123695954

Tell that to people who forcibly get their land taken to mine for the minerals for EV or those that have their rivers contaminated , EV needs up to 6 times the minerals to make the battery, not very environmentally friendly but when your focus is entirely on Co2 then I can understand how people can make out a new EV is better for the environment.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123696354#Comment_123696354

Cobalt mostly comes from the Congo, but you're correct, you see, a lot of people have been brainwashed into thinking EV is better for the environment based on Co2 and Nox emissions completely ignoring the utter devastation caused by mining, EVs need up to 6 times the amount of minerals from mining than an ICE car does so how does solving one issue and causing another make sense ? Even if there was no lithium, lithium accounts for 1-2% of your typical battery.

LiFeP04, better, but doesn't solve the issue, especially if we're to replace combustion entirely, solid state won't even solve the problem because solid state batteries need different minerals.

A lot of people have their land taken for these mines, poor people so who cares ? rivers contaminates, drinking water contaminated, CHild labour, then all this stuff has to be sent to China for processing and we don't really know the true environmental damage caused from battery cell production in Chinese factories.

People want to believe EV are saving the planet but they are not, the best way we can lower emissions is through better public transport and discouraging the use of cars of any kind but cars are a windfall in revenue for the Irish Government which is why they have never provided proper public transport and why would they hand all the money over to a private company ? think about it.

Tenzor07

God yea cos no wars were ever fought over Oil or anything eh?

Get off your soapbox, no one is saying EV's are the answer but they're better than burning 1000's of litres of polluting fossil fuels each year per vehicle…

Utter devastation in the Congo … Do you knock at the doors of all the jewellers in your town and tell them to get rid of all the Gold that was mined in the DRC?

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123696413#Comment_123696413

That hole in the Desert in Saudi provides Oil that makes the modern world work that we all benefit from , without it life would be radically different, however , the truth is that about 60% of that oil is needed solely for transport including aviation.

Lithium accounts for only around 1-2% of an EV battery + all the other minerals have significant impacts on the local environment, Poor farmers land illegally mined and without the owners permission, rivers and underground water sources contaminated, Child labour in the Congo, we don't even know the extent of the damage caused in the Chinese battery factories, now ramp up all this mining to replace combustion and you can clearly just imagine the impact on the planet if EV typically needs around 6 times the minerals VS ICE car. We can't accept "fixing" one issue while causing another.

Will people here on boards.ie back mining for lithium around Mount Leinster if current geological studies show enough reserves to make large scale mining viable ? it would forever change the landscape and there has already been local opposition, also remember that lithium accounts for just 1-2 % of battery.

"and who knows, your trade in may replace someones old banger from the early part of the 2000's… that can't be so bad?"

Yes it can, not believing this doesn't mean it isn't bad. wanting it to be better doesn't make it better.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123696416#Comment_123696416

Yeah and there were plenty of studies to show back in the day that Diesel was better for the environment, here's one that even says " Assessing the climate benefit of the European “diesel boom”

Sorry for the long link , boards can't deal with long links properly, just copy and paste.

https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/271798/1-s2.0-S1352231018X00235/1-s2.0-S1352231018307295/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEBUaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDkuPRMxTggxLamGSPlYuSyuX8xVrejitPg4rKVlq2p5wIgWliopvyadqHC8cYf3KVWp97QBwuutFvHLpIGu1OB2tAqswUIThAFGgwwNTkwMDM1NDY4NjUiDBcZJDrhLSg3g73rsCqQBfBMWtaRUb30BG6FYBPwSX7vVA8f8KZelUL46C3mc8Pk3QfudHsQNQF%2Bn2MFvLhpYCAsv3NerMlxNTKbO2ecq%2F%2BBHfgAioR4q0ISQ3b1hdYJZJTRuDnqudojyd9XyDxgZesKt2597h7VwtL3zqs0Ilicu1Zw5Q%2F0cw60vOTIxG12GqOk9p2jIW0taKBrgMacNA62SdsUaFGf43f%2BRLSSNNIeK1PsgF%2FwvEwJAarY%2FX9yXOWcM01dOVzey9ObgaZ6LktggRzfDPDzvQzE4yA94jQKc7JSP0L5RS19ESNG5KqFfGsc5PpQLBcDrMc8E5ogG%2B%2Ffad%2BRVOtaB5VzByDIHeh2BV%2BTVPU0lyYrwcn8Mj5Q0NxYnbTisghILqbYkWC8oNG%2F4EP921xrTM8IwLOhDjGmgjYFIB%2FbShLVmXHjLD2zcF1XLIRBC4PIcbsCeQ7o9ddhWoOTqXtI37T7eWhCHWsPq4JQ47NIyRZtZIpty8SYl1EL3qC7a8z5bgwhDFr3vm0E4MgrZ2L53Cnui%2B5rCWSwe6U6anmo5naF3tRpdki%2F1sjjOi4UsfoLtQ5i%2FJ%2Bglp8U9KVwll2uQ3pZuEPk5F7Ee0vbrdW4vaGqBCYqYxoG%2B8%2BeJKZknbgfoLjMi2306KoLEiL0RnKZDysKn0jBAtrIkFSlESzoNNWP0Jj8NWzRW%2Bn7Igi91BnMOCR0MF7sNKevTo%2FwldIkzprpN6vw72duX0b1h7VvVcNRPQWvIjpE3uqOPNdDvM8YAAePZLmYmeHvNbdm9igJ1JdZ8AImO3307o9GhTy6scYLa5jndfB3mIMTIkjYmO0twqyFVXaBhMX2UgBaUW1fuHlOTgm8i%2Bddcr71m1uqpAfudwi%2FBnfXMIO8xMQGOrEBDDsquC4mfrNbEXL%2BY4qRZ21XTOqk5ms%2BhoP9wGqcgGtOSefUt7eDb%2B5%2FZAkTy6OaMbzAhLgoIEVZklLV5RyT13JyDeyXSULjf6Hw3u81DcTsbVTa%2FhOhaMrRaDMEzGmOFFFVswUaswoJigYpDgY2AAb5PU8YlU8IRILu%2Bym3GDyViuA3GhiAyUZqcv8tGoYyI69vKK77bOXGJrpHd%2BMWXCnQZ1NTCnseZItyZaZmMQVr&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20250804T222120Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYUE5XTNV7%2F20250804%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=20c406350a61b298ca73f51e62484061ef2bc5c388a45d5a079ec0f626edd2a6&hash=5621c5a2d3ae8eae28577648317a687ea85f10c24fa89eb3fe9eda5bd5400d6f&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1352231018307295&tid=spdf-6434b2fc-1bab-431a-ac6c-57647aa49445&sid=93a7aab09e6fa2490f3b6043f5c21107f36cgxrqb&type=client&tsoh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&rh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&ua=13035f5104555557560302&rr=96a1727bdaa223e0&cc=ie

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123696354#Comment_123696354

It's pretty easy really as the ice is pumping out carbon every day and the EV isn't. That includes making both cars and fueling.

Batteries are also recyclable, unlike burnt oil. A transition away from fossil fuels will reduce the amount of mining needed and reduce the amount of ships, trucks and trains transporting coal, oil and gas around the world.

I don't think there are currently any commercial scale lithium mines in the DRC, did you mean cobalt? My EV and many others don't contain any.

To get a better prospective on mining this graphic might help. See if you can find the huge quantities of lithium and cobalt being mined.

This is just metals which are a drop in the ocean compared to stone, coal, oil and gas.

I don't remember you complaining about any holes being dug for the 50 billion tonnes of rock and sand each year but fictional lithium mines in DRC really gets you for some reason.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123697247#Comment_123697247

God yea cos no wars were ever fought over Oil or anything eh?

And your point ?

Get off your soapbox, no one is saying EV's are the answer but they're better than burning 1000's of litres of polluting fossil fuels each year per vehicle…

Well, it's clear, most people here really believe EV is the answer. Better than burning 1000s of litres of fossil fuels because you don't really care about the emissions in other countries , pollution or the quality of life and deaths for workers of these mines, processing plants etc and impacts to countless other humans to bring EV to the virtue signalling West. Not to mention all the minerals having to go to the Chinese factories where they treat people like animals and God knows what environmental damage is done there in the process of turning all those minerals into batteries.

Utter devastation in the Congo … Do you knock at the doors of all the jewellers in your town and tell them to get rid of all the Gold that was mined in the DRC?

Utter devastation in the Congo and the rest of the mines, I don't go near the jewellers no, do you go to the car manufacturers or the E.U or your local TD, Government to question where the minerals for batteries come from ?

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123697270#Comment_123697270

You're completely ignoring the fact that Co2 isn't a pollutant but mining has a huge permanent impact on the planet and tonnes of this and that don't mean much when you have to take xxxx amount of land to get xx amount of the mineral you want excluding processing and the chemicals used, the child labour, the farmers with no say but to have their land taken often while given no money.

Remember, lithium accounts for only 1-2 % of EV battery but a lot of damage is done to the earth to get that lithium.

Eliminate cobalt, it doesn't change the fact that mining minerals for EV is damaging to the planet but virtue signalling politicians and liberals don't want to know and just think driving around in their EV is saving the planet.

Nothing we do in Ireland is going to change emissions either vs China, India, USA yet we pay disproportionally higher energy costs than the big polluters due to tax and carbon taxes. But that's alright as long as Ireland leads the way in saving the climate……………..

And what impact is full scale combustion replacement to lithium battery going to do to the Earth ?

System

This discussion was created from comments split from:

2025 Irish EV Sales

.

Mod Note: Posts brought from 2025 sales thread

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123697301#Comment_123697301

so, your argument is basically, from the countless post youve made about it, "i dont like evs cos they polouute stuff, and co2 isnt a polutant, ii dont care"

thats not the discussion, thats a tiny part of it, we can fix most of the mining issues a lot easier then the atmosphere, and a hell of a lot quicker. your thinking is too small, and backwards.

electricus

Remember, lithium accounts for only 1-2 % of EV battery but a lot of damage is done to the earth to get that lithium. 

Eliminate cobalt, it doesn't change the fact that mining minerals for EV is damaging to the planet…

Rinse and repeat!

So resource mining and extraction is fine, once those resources aren’t used in EVs?

Why does fossil fuel mining and use get a free pass on planet destruction and pollution?

Will you be okay with EVs (again) when they use batteries based on something other than lithium (or if the lithium is extracted using sustainable methods)?

What do you think the other 98-99% of a lithium ion battery pack is made from? (You keep going on about this)

When are you going to stop polluting threads? maybe you could start your own thread and get it made a sticky to save you having to repost the same 3 or 4 posts so much!

ELM327

It's great that nothing at all in the modern world uses Li-Ion batteries, and that ICE fuel appears freely from the skies.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123697277#Comment_123697277

This stuff is thrown about and widely debated on many online forums, and while you're correct in many things you're also ignoring the wider picture about the amount of pollution and environmental impact of both EV and ICE vehicles.

I mean going on about the DRC, like I said people should stop wearing Gold jewellery and diamonds, also what device are you using to post online? A smartphone, a laptop? Cobalt…. Your ISP and data centre.. Cobalt …. the tyres on your car.. Cobalt.. the list goes on..

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123697199#Comment_123697199

Would you mind elaborating on this "6 times the minerals to make a battery" claim you have mentioned more than a few times? What does the number actually represent? Is it 6 times the quantity, weight, volume? Are we talking about a certain size battery, a specific chemistry, or manufacturer, or what? I haven't seen your post where you substantiated the claim.

I rubbished it as pub talk EV myths, but as you've repeated this across multiple threads, I think it's only fair to ask for what you mean and where the source of that information comes from.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Portable electronics use a much larger share of cobalt than I expected .....

https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/resources/data-room/

As EVs pivot away from using it, portable electronics will be the overwhelming majority and then the barstool experts can go back to not complaining about cobalt.

Maybe 5G or Flouride.

MojoMaker

Rays from space and chem trails man.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123697720#Comment_123697720

No one has listened to anything I have said, while I have repeatedly said that no car is good for the environment I have stated that EV is no better due to the mining, yes oil comes from the ground and exists already as well as mines, the only problem with mining is that to replace combustion the scale of mining will increase by an insane amount one area that Hydrogen combustion has the potential to solve. Clean Hydrogen burning in ICE that needs no more minerals than regular ICE. I'm not saying to keep burning oil but EV will have a devastating impact on the planet if we're to ramp up full scale combustion replacement in the decades to come even if we find lithium from sustainable sources or even move to solid state batteries, we will just trade some minerals for others.

Even if you remove the DRC for LFeP04 you still don't solve the problem , of course it helps but if you think of the large scale mining that will be needed for EV to replace combustion then the problem becomes obvious.

We could do much more , electrify our rail network, Improve public transport, ban SUV, but the burden of so called climate change is always on the back of the private tax payer and bend over to corporations and give them cheap subsidised electricity for data centres which rely heavily on diesel backup at times of high grid demand but lets not talk about that…….

Why is the Irish taxpayer still funding car manufacturers for EV ? I could find a lot better use for that money.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123697641#Comment_123697641

Yes we all use lithium batteries but the consequence in doing so we can't see, and don't care about and shame on us. So is the solution to stop burning oil and substitute one catastrophe for another via biblical scale mining to replace combustion ?

Why don't we insist on improving public transport, electrifying rail, considering Nuclear etc, all would have major impacts to our oil imports. The emphasis is on private motorist because we're easy targets.

electricus

There are alternatives to Lithium for batteries. Would you be happy with an EV built around one of these?

Na-ion

https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinese-battery-maker-catl-launches-second-generation-fast-charging-battery-2025-04-21/

https://interestingengineering.com/energy/iron-sodium-battery-challenges-tesla-megapack

Al-ion

https://interestingengineering.com/energy/aluminum-battery-retains-over-99-capacity

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123702516#Comment_123702516

Not necessarily, no. But can't you see that, while lithium mining is bad (m'kay), it's still better than oil mining. Less is required. And it's not necessarily a one and done, meaning there is second lives for used lithium. (I don't care about CO2, for various reasons it's not a pollutant).

The point is that both a) we need lithium already and did before EVs were a thing in the mainstream again (c.2011 on), and b) the amount of lithium needed for EVs, while biblical, is still less than the amount of oil needed for fossil fuel cars. Did you know that there is more cobalt used in oil refining than there is in most EV batteries now? Also as above, a third reason, the tech is evolving away from lithium anyway.

FWIW my daily car is 2 cars, I have a 2011 leaf that does my short local trips of say 60km return or less, and anything above that I use my new to me Jaguar XF 3.0D. I have a foot in both camps, I'm not an EVangelist and never was, nor am I anti EV. Long term, EVs are of course going to be better but after losing fook tonnes in depreciation on my teslas I'm not willing to do that again for some time until the market matures.

Also I agree we should have gone nuclear decades ago.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123702516#Comment_123702516

Would I be correct in saying the main crux of your argument is this?

"Why is the Irish taxpayer still funding car manufacturers for EV ? I could find a lot better use for that money."
"the burden of so called climate change is always on the back of the private tax payer and bend over to corporations and give them cheap subsidised electricity"
"The emphasis is on private motorist because we're easy targets."

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123703184#Comment_123703184

Yet the same grants cover home insulation upgrades, window upgrades, heat pumps, college courses through Suzie, Springboard etc etc

The mind boggles as to some people’s interpretations on why grants are in place to promote certain processes.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123699248#Comment_123699248

I asked the same question to him a couple of weeks ago and go no response, unsurprisingly.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123706421#Comment_123706421

I remember you asked and hadn't seen a response, but didn't want to assume he hadn't already provided the details of his findings.

We all know that cars aren't the friendliest environmental option and that where appropriate, buses, trains, cycling and walking should be the options taken. We also know that private cars will be for many many more years the preferred option, so if that is to be the case, at least going EV is better alternative to ICE vehicles. Each to their own, but we should be able to provide evidence when we make bold statements, especially when wide open to interpretation. I'm sure @Mad_Lad will come back to answer the question asked.

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123702516#Comment_123702516

you sound exactually like the people that wanted to keep lead in petrol.