Would you be happy for your children to receive covid-19 vaccine

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286248#Comment_118286248

We're talking about 5-12 year olds?! Any analogy between them and dole scroungers is nuts!

Obviously because, y'know, little johnny is so special. He doesn't need to do his bit and can scrounge off everyone else doing theirs instead. It's up to parents to determine what values they want to distill in their child.

I am one of those parents. Have never been on the dole in my life, and my kids will not be getting the vaccine, not because they are special, but because thus far nobody has made a convincing argument that it is in their best interests.

For obvious reasons, likening them to dole scroungers is not going to cut it. And it is not that I want my kids to piggy back on the other children "doing their bit", far from it. I am hoping NIAC show some sense and declare that they do not recommend vaccinating any child.

If they do recommend vaccinating primary school kids, they're going to have to come up with something far more convincing than "Well, you know, your kids need to pull on the green jersey and roll their sleeves up, it's their civic duty."

Pre covid, there was a duty of care to children. i,e the kids expected the adults to protect them, not the other way around as seems to be fashionable in the new normal. Bonkers stuff.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282566#Comment_118282566

How many of those kids had underlying conditions? That's an important variable no?

Love the way newstalk say "Ireland will begin vaccinating children"

Should be Ireland will begin OFFERING vaccines to children "

They cannot be FORCED on children or coherse parents to get them vaccinated...they need to word their articles better.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286486#Comment_118286486

I don't know. You tell me.

What I do know is that vaccinated children have less chance of ending up in hospital as a result of COVID.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286464#Comment_118286464

Justify it however you like. There's nothing anyone else can do about that in the absence of mandatory vaccinations. The same as there is nothing that can be done about parents who refuse to vaccinate their own special and unique little Johnny for measles or any other disease. There are kids who cannot get certain vaccinations for (legitimate) medical reasons and those depend on herd immunity provided by others. But some want to be "part of society" when it comes to availing of its benefits (e.g. dole) but like to opt out when it comes to contributing (i.e. getting your vaccine).

Anyway, your kids will catch covid sooner or later. Regardless of how they catch it, a vaccine would mean they suffer less. If you don't care how much your kids will suffer, I definitely am not going to care whether they are symptomless or get a very bad dose of it. My only interest is in their effect of passing it on through society - and much like the inveterate dole spnger, that is just something society has to deal with.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286549#Comment_118286549

I think you're reading what you want to believe into the headline, unless you think the take up will be 0.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286133#Comment_118286133

Here's a simple question for you, are children better off when exposed to SARS-COV2 after a COVID vaccine course or without a vaccine?

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286612#Comment_118286612

I was making the point that a headline saying 3 children were in ICU means very little unless you know weather or not they had underlying conditions, for example, asthma. How does the saying go again....lies, damned lies and statistics.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286241#Comment_118286241

Where are you getting your info on? Its common for many vaccines to have base doses followed by boosters. Only a week or two ago the Pfizer CEO said that the Covid vaccine will likely be annual like that flu, not bi-annual.

Only a few months ago boosters weren't in play to the degree they are today either and today they're around six months or less, depending on jurisdiction. The Austrians have shortened their booster requirement from nine to seven months. Unless boosters with the current vaccines turn out to lengthen the protection period by double they won't get to once a year any time soon.

The risk of kids not getting vaccinated for outweighs the risk of getting vaccinated and suffering a side effects.

The vaccines have only been in human use for 18 months and even shorter in children. The viralvector delivery tech has a little more time under its belt, but not that long, the mRNA delivery tech has never been in human use before 18 months ago. Moderna who are the poster boys for the tech after over a decade and milllions and trials thrown at what was seen as a new medical magic bullet have just one single commercial product after all that, their vaccine. Almost all the rest of their avenues of research had to be stopped at animal trials because of side effects. That's about the biggest reason they went into vaccine research. It's normally a low return on investement, but because the doses were lower and were seen as less likely to be repeated as often they were going to be safer. Neither the pro or for that matter anti vaccination types can claim longterm effects, or none. We can guess, but we simply don't know. If you're over forty, have chronic illness, or underlying conditions or are immunosuppressed then the risk is well worth it, regardless of age, but the risk/reward equation starts to look shaky in a demographic whose risk is tiny.

We vaccinate kids against meningitis even though their risk of catching it is miniscule. And it also impacts transmission, per the next point...

While yep viral meningitis is rarely dangerous, bacterial meningitis is far more potentially lethal than covid 19. Without treatment it's over 90% fatality rate, with treatment 2-3% fatality rate with a high risk of disability in survivors. So while the risk of catching it is low, if you do it's much more dangerous than covid 19 so it makes very good sense to vaccinate against it. The vaccines have been around for decades too.

Measles, like some other viruses, replicates internally before spreading therefore vaccination is very effective in stopping transmission. Upper respiratory viruses dont need to replicate internally as they replicate where they land, usually the nose, and hey presto they are building a home in your body with ease.

My turn to ask where you're getting your info from? Measles is a fully airborne virus that is spread by coughs and sneezes(and by touching contaminated surfaces) that get into the nose and throat where it starts to reproduce. It's found in large quantities in the mucus of the respiratory tract. As far as transmission is concerned it's an upper respiratory virus. It's also infectious before symptoms are obvious. It's the most infectious agent there is with a R0 number if memory serves of 13 or 14.

The Covid vaccine has proved to be incredibly effective at reducing serious illness and death. The global stats speak for themselves. Its a no brainer and to suggest otherwise is anti-science.

I never said it wasn't, nor wouldn't. It massively reduces hospitalisation and death. Hospitalisation and death is overwhelmingly seen in the over 40's and really ramps up in the over 60's. Again 90% of all deaths from Covid 19 were in those who were 65 plus and 40% of all deaths were in those over 85. The risk of death from confirmed covid 19 virus in the under 25's is 0.003%.

Regarding tranmission comparisons from vax vs unvaxxed, its not up in the air. Taking the Delta variant and to quote from a comprehensive peer reviewed study published in October of this year which studiest the highest risk environment, households:

"The SAR in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% (95% CI 18–33) for fully vaccinated individuals compared with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals.

Yes there is a reduction, but it's not exactly a large one. The current vaccines are pretty leaky. Have we any studies on looking at infection transmission in children to adults? Genuine question. For a long time it was considered that children posed one of the lowest risks because their viral loads were lower. Hell, the Irish authorities went the full hog and claimed covid transmission was mostly community spread and not through schools, until it magically changed. Here are three earlier studies. Though the last one is from July of this year:

Studies indicate that children are not the major vector of SARS-CoV-2 transmission in the community with most pediatric cases described in family clusters. The prevalent direction of virus transmission is adult-to-child rather than child-to-adult (24,66). In particular, only in 8% of households did a child develop symptoms before any other household member (25). In family clusters, the most common source of infection was a parent, considered the index case in 56% of cases, while in only 4% of cases the most probable index case was a sibling (17). Lastly, new SARS-CoV-2 variants emerged the past months, with higher (up to 90%) reproduction number and an increased impact on morbidity and deaths, based on model projections, compared with preexisting variants (67). The role of children in the transmission dynamics of these variants must be elucidated (67).

So did Delta increase the risk in children and has there been an uptick in children presenting with increased illness and potential mortality?

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287261#Comment_118287261

Oh wait, I didn't realise I was replying to your good self, hi Wibbs!

Its too late to reply in-depth and I figure we may go round in circles at this hour but to answer two of your questions.

Regarding measles; the measles virus moves to the lungs and replicates in lymphoid. It leaves the lungs via a different route than it entered. That gives the vaccine induced antibodies enough to time to tackle the virus before it leaves the body, generally speaking. Unfortunately Covid replication process is different.

Regarding children and transmission to adults. Studies Ive read pre-Delta showed that child to adult transmission in household settings was far less common than adult to adult, with one study citing the risk of transmission at 52%. While its too early to see solid studies with Delta, the consensus is that Delta is of greater concern for kids and the risk of transmission is higher. These are generalised statements of course as the age of children is a meaningful consideration.

Just as a reference point using data from the US, children accounted for c.13% of Covid case back in August 2020 (pre-Delta) where as in August 2021 that figure rose to c.22%. While adult vaccination may be a factor in that increase, it wouldn't be the sole reason.

I dont have an answer to your question on child mortality.

Icantthinkof1

NIAC has recommended Covid 19 vaccine for 5-11 year olds

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286756#Comment_118286756

Much better off using their immune system which deals very effectively with Covid.

Here’s another simple question: Considering so many children will have caught Covid by January, why the need to vaccinate them?

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290032#Comment_118290032

Reduced chance of getting COVID.

Reduced chance of having bad to severe symptoms if they do get it; reduced risk of hospitalisation.

Reduced chance of transmitting it on to other people.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290654#Comment_118290654

Reduced chance of transmitting it on to other people.

That is totally unknown if it is a benefit of vaccinating children.

Hence anybody who is urging people to vaccinate their 5-11 year olds to protect adults is utterly misguided, and should understand that parents can weigh up the risk/rewards for their own child.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290699#Comment_118290699

That is totally unknown if it is a benefit of vaccinating children.

Bullsh1t.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. Vaccination reduces (but does not eliminate) the risk of transmission of COVID. This has been proven with many different studies at this stage.

Sources:

* Covid-19: Do vaccines reduce the risk of spreading coronavirus? | New Scientist

"People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

“They absolutely do reduce transmission,” says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.” A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated.

* One dose of COVID-19 vaccine can cut household transmission by up to half - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

* Science Brief: COVID-19 Vaccines and Vaccination (cdc.gov)

pc7

I know its mentioned earlier in thread that Finland are only doing vulnerable children in the 5-11 bracket, is there a way to see how the rest of Europe is doing it and what countries are deciding for this cohort? thanks.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290990#Comment_118290990

Of course I am not entitled to my own facts. Your sources sound impressive on the subject of "Vaccinated people" but in this discussion I think NIAC's views on children is more relevant, specifically RECOMMENDATIONS FOR COVID-19 VACCINATION FOR CHILDREN AGED 5 TO 11 YEARS 

Although vaccination will reduce infection and prevent symptomatic disease, the impact on transmission, asymptomatic infection and duration of immunity in children aged 5 - 11 years is unknown.

In vaccinating children aged 5-11 years, the benefits of reduced chance of transmitting it on to other people is unknown. Fact. According to the experts.

I'll trust science and listen to the experts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291151#Comment_118291151

They're not free; you're paying for 'em through your taxes 😄

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290032#Comment_118290032

Your immune system with a vaccine is much more effective than without a vaccine, risk is greater when infected without a vaccine as well. But at least you're clearly in the "natural immunity" bolloxology anti-science camp.

There will still be many many children who have not caught it yet that will get protection.

NIAC approved today, parents will get to choose, commence the pearl clutching!

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291240#Comment_118291240

I fully support parents right to choose. Each child might have a different circumstance and need the vaccine for underlying conditions, etc.

I do have a very big problem with any means of coercion to get the vaccine for children. What’s anti science about natural immunity? Are you suggesting the thousands of children who’ve tested positive for Covid recently and will recover need the vaccine?

SymbolicActs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290032#Comment_118290032

Here's another simple question - how hard did you fail Junior Cert science, exactly?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291263#Comment_118291263

Because a vaccine also provides natural immunity but without the risk of disease, it's hogwash pseudo science perpetuated by the same groups that promote healing crystals.

As with everyone else, immunity after infection will wane, the vaccine boosts that immunity, it'll be down to parents whether it's worth it or not for their children. The vaccines also induce a consistent immune response, it's impossible to know what level your immune system is at post infection and recovery.

Paddygreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291306#Comment_118291306

Ouch, you as cold as ice bruv but +1 the science has spoken, models show and experts agree that herd immunity comes from vaccines. The tin foil hats should look at the WHOs 2020 redefinition of herd immunity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291221#Comment_118291221

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291427#Comment_118291427

You're the third person entranced by the WHO redefinition, where did you read about it? Was it done for nefarious reasons?

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291263#Comment_118291263

Can I ask you a genuine question, at what point would you stop supporting a parent’s right to chose? What would it take to convince you that your view was wrong?

This is not a trolling comment, it’s a genuine question

DublinWexican

Absolutely. We get them vaccine for all the vitals things they need. At first it appeared that this wasn't necessary and they would develop immunity but that is clearly not the case and they need some help.

Icantthinkof1

Does anyone know will it be the same for children as it is with adults; that if they don’t have a Covid vaccine cert they won’t be allowed into cinemas/ restaurants etc?

I really hope not

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291373#Comment_118291373

There’s a lot to unpick here:

• Natural immunity isn’t pseudoscience. I asked would you vaccinate those children who will have had Covid & recovered and you failed to answer. If you’re into healing crystals, good for you. You’re consistently trying to label posters who are making valid points as conspiracy / anti vaccine / whatever else you can dream up.
• You state ‘immunity after infection will wane, it will to some degree but memory cells should work well especially in healthy children and the rate at which Covid keeps circulating around. Are you stating that children will also be needing to be ‘boosted’ consistently to keep their immunity levels high enough?

Tbh I’ve clogged up enough threads with yourself disagreeing about this topic. So I’ll leave it there.

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291465#Comment_118291465

Why this question? Are you suggesting that parents shouldn’t have the right to choose? And why should my view be ‘wrong’ when I’m looking at the data.