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Would you be happy for your children to receive covid-19 vaccine

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    Great story, but yeah sorry still not getting my kids vaccinated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    "Story", what?

    Don't get your kids vaccinated if you don't want to. That's your decision, and you own the consequences. Hopefully there won't be any.

    But they're facts, not a "story."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    What are the chances of children getting severe symptoms? Enough is enough.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Reduced chance of getting COVID.

    Reduced yes and it seems only if they keep getting boosters every six months for the foreseeable going on current vaccine performance. Two jabs now, then another in May, then another in November, rinse and repeat. Next they'll be getting wee vaccine passports of their own.

    Reduced chance of having bad to severe symptoms if they do get it; reduced risk of hospitalisation.

    The risks of severe symptoms in the under 25's is tiny. Of the confirmed positives under 25 the risk of hospitalisation is 0.8% and we have no figures on the underlying conditions in that demographic. The risk of death is even tinier. Of the 205848 postive confirmed cases of Covid 19 in Irish people under the age of 25 to date, there were 7 deaths. That's a risk of death in a positive case of 0.003%. Monumentally minscule.

    Reduced chance of transmitting it on to other people.

    Again reduced, but by how much is still very much up in the air. A week or so ago the highest percentage of vaccinations in Ireland was in Waterford county, which also had a rate of infection three times higher than the average for the rest of the country. The kids were spreading it? OK, but if so and the vast majority of adults were vaccinated and the vaccine reduces the chances of getting it why such high numbers? It seems these vaccines aren't nearly so great at stopping transmission as promised. If I'm vaccinated against measles or chicken pox and a couple of kids with one dose each on board come up and cough in my face I'm not going to come down with either. The same most certainly can't be claimed for the current vaccines.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Whocanibe


    Is it just one injection for the 5-11's or will they have to get Boosters too...

    I don't like MM at the best of times, but he reached an all time low in my opinion, when he spoke to the children in his speech, sinister and creepy, and actually made my stomach churn.

    He also gave the media the chance to turn once again on the unvaccinated, too many people were beginning to question policies, it's a pity he and the rest of them don't point the finger where it truly belongs!

    Depressing...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,180 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Is it just one injection for the 5-11's or will they have to get Boosters too

    The vaccine isn't approved yet in Ireland for that age group but the EMA information is here.

    In children from 5 to 11 years of age, the dose of Comirnaty will be lower than that used in people aged 12 and above (10 µg compared with 30 µg). As in the older age group, it is given as two injections in the muscles of the upper arm, three weeks apart. 

    Boosters are irrelevant at this stage. Even if they are offered in future, nothing compels you to take them up.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Boosters are irrelevant at this stage. Even if they are offered in future, nothing compels you to take them up.

    Boosters are very relevant. The "at this stage" part is only a qualifier. Boosters were irrelevant for adults six months ago at that stage and now adults are being "compelled" to take them up as we speak. Oh it's not mandatory now, but look at the Austria thread hereabouts and how quite the number are nursing a semi over them compelling vaccinations in general. It may never be mandatory in Ireland, but there will be social pressures and consequences if you don't go with the programme. There are already such in place for adults(try taking a trip anywhere in Europe next year without one), I don't see why that'll be any different for kids.

    It's going to be an increasingly hard sell for many people to both accept that vaccines will get us out of this, while at the same time only for a few months, while we see restrictions coming back in and many people's lives and livelihoods suffer.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,180 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Wibbs, aside from the unevidenced speculation, that's entirely irrelevant to the decision about whether to take the initial doses, since whatever the future regulations are I cannot see how they would prioritize unvaccinated over vaccinated unboosted.

    Unless you're proposing to pivot a childhood vaccination decision into something like civil disobedience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Honestly? I don't know. The stats are probably available from the HSE or HIQA or HSPC, though.

    And yes, reduced chance of severe symptoms. Like these kids:

    Up to 26 children have been recently hospitalised with Covid-19 and a number admitted to intensive care, it emerged yesterday.

    New figures show the young patients under 18, including nine under four, were hospitalised with the virus in the two weeks from October 1 to October 14.

    Source: Coronavirus Ireland: At least three children in intensive care with Covid this month as concern over capacity mounts - Independent.ie

    Yes, enough is enough. If a free, safe, injection can stop my kid ending up in intensive care, then that's a no-brainer.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Wibbs, aside from the unevidenced speculation,

    I don't see how it is close to speculation, because that is precisely what has happened in the adult population. The fact is your position that boosters are irrelevant at this stage is far more speculative as is the lack of compulsion. Because both are in play, today, with the adult population and up until six months ago the same adult population was in the same position as children today.

    that's entirely irrelevant to the decision about whether to take the initial doses, since whatever the future regulations are I cannot see how they would prioritize unvaccinated over vaccinated unboosted.

    Again that's already coming into play. Take France as an example. From January if you're French or want to visit France with any ease, if you don't have a booster you may as well be unvaccinated. If you do decide to go to France as a vaccinated person minus the booster you'll be working under essentially the same protocols of testing etc as someone who is unvaccinated.

    Véran did however introduce an incentive to get a booster shot. Adults will need one by January 15 for their COVID health passes -- which allows access to restaurants, bars and other indoor venues -- to remain valid.

    Individuals over the age of 65 will have to have the third dose by 15 December, the government had already announced.

    If they don't they have to get a negative PCR test the validity of which has come down from 72 hours to 24. Again at that point they may as well be unvaccinated. There's your prioritising in action and there's your compulsion in action in France from this month on. Now the same French have said that vaccines for children won't be in play until 2022 and would be optional when they are. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out when Ireland with a higher percentage of the adult population vaccinated is now moving into vaccinating children. Austria with it's upcoming mandatory vaccinations has shortened the considered fully vaccinated minus boosters from nine to seven months. Your claim that: "Boosters are irrelevant at this stage. Even if they are offered in future, nothing compels you to take them up" looks more than a bit shaky.

    Unless you're proposing to pivot a childhood vaccination decision into something like civil disobedience.

    I have no idea what you mean here?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,180 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    What I'm saying is that the possible future requirement for boosters to retain rights limited to vaccinated children has no bearing on the decision to vaccinate now, unless that initial decision is being made in order to avoid future vaccine-based restrictions.

    Since absolutely nobody is saying "I'm vaccinating my under 12s so they can gain access to restaurants" or whatever, that line of argument is completely irrelevant.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Is it not pretty obvious that once the under 12 vaccine roll out begins, then they will be subject to same covid cert restrictions as the rest of us?

    So come January if you are a vaccinated adult and you want to go to a restaurant with your children you'll need to vaccinate them too. I daresay many will do so on that basis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭bladespin


    I'm a little unsure restricting an under 12's access to the gym or pub will be much of a motivator, there's also a limit to what you can get away with discrimination between children.

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    What I'm saying is that the possible future requirement for boosters to retain rights limited to vaccinated children has no bearing on the decision to vaccinate now, unless that initial decision is being made in order to avoid future vaccine-based restrictions.

    Swap out "children" for "adults" in your sentence and you could have said the same thing six months ago. Today you can't. As I have demonstrated and with examples relevant to today and going forward unless something radically changes there is an increasing requirement and compulsion for adults to have boosters. This is a reality, not speculation. But Children will be different? Six months ago vaccinating children was barely in the mix. Hell we were told that magic happened at the school gates and kids weren't spreading this pox. Until magically they were, or weren't, who knows(other than the dogs on the street) and we got masks and open windows and HEPA filtration. And now vaccines. And you really believe boosters won't come into this in six or eight months time, when adults will likely have had at least one extra boost?

    Since absolutely nobody is saying "I'm vaccinating my under 12s so they can gain access to restaurants" or whatever, that line of argument is completely irrelevant.

    Clearly your definition of relevant differs from mine. And again you could have said similar of adults and accessing restaurants or whatever six months ago. Indeed that was a fair bit of the push behind getting the under twenties and thirties vaccinated a few months ago. That "whatever" can easily be applied to play groups, schools, after school indoor activities for kids. And kids eat in cafes too and go to the cinema, both of which need covid passes for adults. If the reason we're vaccinating kids is to protect them and reduce transmission in the community, the same reasons we took the vaccines ourselves as adults, how do they magically avoid all the other stuff that we as vaccinated adults require now and in the future?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Squeeonline


    Mild symptoms can still be very unpleasant. I'd feel like a really sh!tty parent if I didn't at least try to reduce suffering in my child.


    Sure, they are unlikely (but not impossible) to end up on a ventilator in hospital, but they could feel really sick and miserable for a week or more. If you feel like looking only from a selfish standpoint, consider the lack of sleep you will get when you are caring for your child for those days. Having milder symptoms of infection will make your life easier too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,180 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Are you capable of articulating your position in one short sentence? Please? 😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,998 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    Wibbs you’re 100% correct with that, I think it’s obvious at this stage what the road ahead will be for children and the coercion method’s the government will roll out to get parents to jab their children.

    Dark days ahead..

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,998 ✭✭✭Marty Bird



    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I can't help it if a complex set of variables can't be reduced to a soundbite to make it easier for you to digest, or more to the point respond with current real world evidence to back up your case. I found it easy enough to defend mine, you appear to having some difficulty. Your hail mary civil disobedience line ample evidence of that.

    But meh let's give it a go:

    Initial doses and current and future regulations in adults, where the non boosted vaccinated are already being lumped in with the unvaccinated in practical terms with the same social and legal compulsions for both is in play today, not "unevidenced speculation", fact. Why would children be any different when they were in the same position as adults six months ago and for the same reasons given then for adults are now being given for children?

    Apologies, that's two sentences.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,180 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Thanks!

    Initial doses and current and future regulations in adults, where the non boosted vaccinated are already being lumped in with the unvaccinated in practical terms with the same social and legal compulsions for both is in play today, not "unevidenced speculation", fact.

    Agreed, for adults, that there is discussion of restrictions are being based on strength of immunity, through recent vaccination or recovery, rather than one-off vaccination, although I haven't seen any evidence of this in Ireland. What's changed in the public debate around vaccines is the assumption that immunity is very durable. When the original regs were drafted there was no data on durability. But still, there is AFAIK no proposal to change the regs that we have.

    Why would children be any different when they were in the same position as adults six months ago and for the same reasons given then for adults are now being given for children?

    Minors (under 18s) have always been treated differently in the regulations, in Ireland. Vaccination of under 18s has been available for many months, with 17-18s since when? early summer? and under 16s from early August. So why hasn't the covid pass for restaurants etc been extended to those age groups? Because they're minors. Your concerns about children are reflected in the regulations we have.

    Aside from those points, what is the relevance of restrictions to the vaccination decision? The vaccination decision should be based on risk vs reward, adverse side effects vs protection. Vaccines offer a tiny reduction in absolute risk for children, therefore the HSE is providing balanced advice for parents and children so that they can make their own judgements about whether to take them.

    I do not see the case for moral panic here.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭hometruths


    The good news is they pretty quickly rolled back on the very strict no mask, no school rule for 9 year olds.

    I think the government will have realised that whilst parents may take quite a lot on the chin when it comes to personally complying with ill thought out measures, they're likely to be a lot less apathetic when their children are coerced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭bladespin


    There's very little evidence that would suggest a week's suffering was in store, or anything even close to that, most cases in children are reported to last just a few days officially.

    Anecdotal for sure but my co-worker's kids all had it (household outbreak), none were poorly for more than a day, age range from 13 to 3, one felt a little ill for an hour.

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Up to 26 children have been recently hospitalised with Covid-19 and a number admitted to intensive care, it emerged yesterday.

    New figures show the young patients under 18, including nine under four, were hospitalised with the virus in the two weeks from October 1 to October 14.

    Source: Coronavirus Ireland: At least three children in intensive care with Covid this month as concern over capacity mounts - Independent.ie

    Sure, those under-4s were no doubt having a ball in hospital...

    I know 26 children in a fortnight being admitted to hospital in a 2-week period isn't a lot, but it's not none, either, and hospitalisation because of COVID is only going to be happening if you're really not well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Don't recall ever saying there were no serious cases in children, just that it's extremely unlikely unless the child has an underlying condition that hopefully the parents and medical staff would be aware of, tragedy is everywhere is you look hard enough, I've seen at least one new-born going through it.

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,643 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    The same people moaning about vaccinations are the ones moaning the most about any and every restrictions. I'm sure they would also complain even more if their child's school was closed due to covid outbreaks. The cognitive dissonance is strong.

    People complain about "snowflakes" now. Imagine what the upcoming generation are going to be like after being mollycoddled by parents who are teaching them they don't need to consider any form of civic contribution because they are so "special" and "unique". Teaching them to sit back and try to sit up on the backs of others who will make the effort. Those will be the next generation of scroungers. And they don't lick these things off stones.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Some of those people went on the storm thread recently and complain about school closures because of weather warnings.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭hometruths


    parents who are teaching them they don't need to consider any form of civic contribution because they are so "special" and "unique"

    Haven't heard anyone moan about their children getting vaccines because "they are so "special" and "unique"" , most I know don't want to vaccinate their children because it is unnecessary.

    Total nonsense to describe kids getting vaccinated as a civic contribution. And then pretty ugly to then try to shame them for shirking this duty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    Finland are not authorising the Covid vaccines for ages 5-11 across the board, just to at risk groups. Hope NIAC follow this recommendation.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    "Reduced chance of getting COVID.

    Reduced yes and it seems only if they keep getting boosters every six months for the foreseeable going on current vaccine performance. Two jabs now, then another in May, then another in November, rinse and repeat. Next they'll be getting wee vaccine passports of their own."

    Where are you getting your info on? Its common for many vaccines to have base doses followed by boosters. Only a week or two ago the Pfizer CEO said that the Covid vaccine will likely be annual like that flu, not bi-annual.


    "Reduced chance of having bad to severe symptoms if they do get it; reduced risk of hospitalisation.

    The risks of severe symptoms in the under 25's is tiny. Of the confirmed positives under 25 the risk of hospitalisation is 0.8% and we have no figures on the underlying conditions in that demographic. The risk of death is even tinier. Of the 205848 postive confirmed cases of Covid 19 in Irish people under the age of 25 to date, there were 7 deaths. That's a risk of death in a positive case of 0.003%. Monumentally minscule. "

    The risk of kids not getting vaccinated for outweighs the risk of getting vaccinated and suffering a side effects. We vaccinate kids against meningitis even though their risk of catching it is miniscule. And it also impacts transmission, per the next point...


    "Reduced chance of transmitting it on to other people.

    Again reduced, but by how much is still very much up in the air. A week or so ago the highest percentage of vaccinations in Ireland was in Waterford county, which also had a rate of infection three times higher than the average for the rest of the country. The kids were spreading it? OK, but if so and the vast majority of adults were vaccinated and the vaccine reduces the chances of getting it why such high numbers? It seems these vaccines aren't nearly so great at stopping transmission as promised. If I'm vaccinated against measles or chicken pox and a couple of kids with one dose each on board come up and cough in my face I'm not going to come down with either. The same most certainly can't be claimed for the current vaccines."

    Measles, like some other viruses, replicates internally before spreading therefore vaccination is very effective in stopping transmission. Upper respiratory viruses dont need to replicate internally as they replicate where they land, usually the nose, and hey presto they are building a home in your body with ease.

    The Covid vaccine has proved to be incredibly effective at reducing serious illness and death. The global stats speak for themselves. Its a no brainer and to suggest otherwise is anti-science.

    Regarding tranmission comparisons from vax vs unvaxxed, its not up in the air. Taking the Delta variant and to quote from a comprehensive peer reviewed study published in October of this year which studiest the highest risk environment, households:


    "The SAR in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% (95% CI 18–33) for fully vaccinated individuals compared with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals. The median time between second vaccine dose and study recruitment in fully vaccinated contacts was longer for infected individuals (median 101 days [IQR 74–120]) than for uninfected individuals (64 days [32–97], p=0·001). SAR among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25% [95% CI 15–35] for vaccinated vs 23% [15–31] for unvaccinated). 12 (39%) of 31 infections in fully vaccinated household contacts arose from fully vaccinated epidemiologically linked index cases, further confirmed by genomic and virological analysis in three index case–contact pairs. Although peak viral load did not differ by vaccination status or variant type, it increased modestly with age (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10 viral load per mL between those aged 10 years and 50 years). Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections. Within individuals, faster viral load growth was correlated with higher peak viral load (correlation 0·42 [95% credible interval 0·13 to 0·65]) and slower decline (–0·44 [–0·67 to –0·18]).Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance."

    Of course the misinformation and anti-vaxxers focus on this line: "Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts", which taken in isolation paints a misleading picture.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,643 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Well most people go out and get a job. There are plenty of others who see that the majority are doing work and because the workers provide the benefits in terms of income via social welfare, the others decide "I don't have to contribute" and go on the scratcher and scrounge off the efforts of the workers.

    Similarly, most will get vaccinated. But some will see that the majority are getting vaccinated and because the majority provide the benefits in terms of disease prevention to the the whole population, the others decide "I don't have to contribute" and don't get vaccinated and scrounge off the efforts of the workers.

    There are plenty of posts on here who happy to state that they are vaccinated, and don't seem to have any problem with other children getting vaccinated, but declare their sprogs aren't getting it. Obviously because, y'know, little johnny is so special. He doesn't need to do his bit and can scrounge off everyone else doing theirs instead. It's up to parents to determine what values they want to distill in their child.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭hometruths


    We're talking about 5-12 year olds?! Any analogy between them and dole scroungers is nuts!

    Obviously because, y'know, little johnny is so special. He doesn't need to do his bit and can scrounge off everyone else doing theirs instead. It's up to parents to determine what values they want to distill in their child.

    I am one of those parents. Have never been on the dole in my life, and my kids will not be getting the vaccine, not because they are special, but because thus far nobody has made a convincing argument that it is in their best interests.

    For obvious reasons, likening them to dole scroungers is not going to cut it. And it is not that I want my kids to piggy back on the other children "doing their bit", far from it. I am hoping NIAC show some sense and declare that they do not recommend vaccinating any child.

    If they do recommend vaccinating primary school kids, they're going to have to come up with something far more convincing than "Well, you know, your kids need to pull on the green jersey and roll their sleeves up, it's their civic duty."

    Pre covid, there was a duty of care to children. i,e the kids expected the adults to protect them, not the other way around as seems to be fashionable in the new normal. Bonkers stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    How many of those kids had underlying conditions? That's an important variable no?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Love the way newstalk say "Ireland will begin vaccinating children"

    Should be Ireland will begin OFFERING vaccines to children "

    They cannot be FORCED on children or coherse parents to get them vaccinated...they need to word their articles better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    I don't know. You tell me.

    What I do know is that vaccinated children have less chance of ending up in hospital as a result of COVID.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,643 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Justify it however you like. There's nothing anyone else can do about that in the absence of mandatory vaccinations. The same as there is nothing that can be done about parents who refuse to vaccinate their own special and unique little Johnny for measles or any other disease. There are kids who cannot get certain vaccinations for (legitimate) medical reasons and those depend on herd immunity provided by others. But some want to be "part of society" when it comes to availing of its benefits (e.g. dole) but like to opt out when it comes to contributing (i.e. getting your vaccine).


    Anyway, your kids will catch covid sooner or later. Regardless of how they catch it, a vaccine would mean they suffer less. If you don't care how much your kids will suffer, I definitely am not going to care whether they are symptomless or get a very bad dose of it. My only interest is in their effect of passing it on through society - and much like the inveterate dole spnger, that is just something society has to deal with.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,000 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I think you're reading what you want to believe into the headline, unless you think the take up will be 0.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,000 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Here's a simple question for you, are children better off when exposed to SARS-COV2 after a COVID vaccine course or without a vaccine?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    I was making the point that a headline saying 3 children were in ICU means very little unless you know weather or not they had underlying conditions, for example, asthma. How does the saying go again....lies, damned lies and statistics.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Where are you getting your info on? Its common for many vaccines to have base doses followed by boosters. Only a week or two ago the Pfizer CEO said that the Covid vaccine will likely be annual like that flu, not bi-annual.

    Only a few months ago boosters weren't in play to the degree they are today either and today they're around six months or less, depending on jurisdiction. The Austrians have shortened their booster requirement from nine to seven months. Unless boosters with the current vaccines turn out to lengthen the protection period by double they won't get to once a year any time soon.

    The risk of kids not getting vaccinated for outweighs the risk of getting vaccinated and suffering a side effects.

    The vaccines have only been in human use for 18 months and even shorter in children. The viralvector delivery tech has a little more time under its belt, but not that long, the mRNA delivery tech has never been in human use before 18 months ago. Moderna who are the poster boys for the tech after over a decade and milllions and trials thrown at what was seen as a new medical magic bullet have just one single commercial product after all that, their vaccine. Almost all the rest of their avenues of research had to be stopped at animal trials because of side effects. That's about the biggest reason they went into vaccine research. It's normally a low return on investement, but because the doses were lower and were seen as less likely to be repeated as often they were going to be safer. Neither the pro or for that matter anti vaccination types can claim longterm effects, or none. We can guess, but we simply don't know. If you're over forty, have chronic illness, or underlying conditions or are immunosuppressed then the risk is well worth it, regardless of age, but the risk/reward equation starts to look shaky in a demographic whose risk is tiny.

    We vaccinate kids against meningitis even though their risk of catching it is miniscule. And it also impacts transmission, per the next point...

    While yep viral meningitis is rarely dangerous, bacterial meningitis is far more potentially lethal than covid 19. Without treatment it's over 90% fatality rate, with treatment 2-3% fatality rate with a high risk of disability in survivors. So while the risk of catching it is low, if you do it's much more dangerous than covid 19 so it makes very good sense to vaccinate against it. The vaccines have been around for decades too.

    Measles, like some other viruses, replicates internally before spreading therefore vaccination is very effective in stopping transmission. Upper respiratory viruses dont need to replicate internally as they replicate where they land, usually the nose, and hey presto they are building a home in your body with ease.

    My turn to ask where you're getting your info from? Measles is a fully airborne virus that is spread by coughs and sneezes(and by touching contaminated surfaces) that get into the nose and throat where it starts to reproduce. It's found in large quantities in the mucus of the respiratory tract. As far as transmission is concerned it's an upper respiratory virus. It's also infectious before symptoms are obvious. It's the most infectious agent there is with a R0 number if memory serves of 13 or 14.

    The Covid vaccine has proved to be incredibly effective at reducing serious illness and death. The global stats speak for themselves. Its a no brainer and to suggest otherwise is anti-science.

    I never said it wasn't, nor wouldn't. It massively reduces hospitalisation and death. Hospitalisation and death is overwhelmingly seen in the over 40's and really ramps up in the over 60's. Again 90% of all deaths from Covid 19 were in those who were 65 plus and 40% of all deaths were in those over 85. The risk of death from confirmed covid 19 virus in the under 25's is 0.003%.

    Regarding tranmission comparisons from vax vs unvaxxed, its not up in the air. Taking the Delta variant and to quote from a comprehensive peer reviewed study published in October of this year which studiest the highest risk environment, households:

    "The SAR in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% (95% CI 18–33) for fully vaccinated individuals compared with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals.

    Yes there is a reduction, but it's not exactly a large one. The current vaccines are pretty leaky. Have we any studies on looking at infection transmission in children to adults? Genuine question. For a long time it was considered that children posed one of the lowest risks because their viral loads were lower. Hell, the Irish authorities went the full hog and claimed covid transmission was mostly community spread and not through schools, until it magically changed. Here are three earlier studies. Though the last one is from July of this year:

    Studies indicate that children are not the major vector of SARS-CoV-2 transmission in the community with most pediatric cases described in family clusters. The prevalent direction of virus transmission is adult-to-child rather than child-to-adult (24,66). In particular, only in 8% of households did a child develop symptoms before any other household member (25). In family clusters, the most common source of infection was a parent, considered the index case in 56% of cases, while in only 4% of cases the most probable index case was a sibling (17). Lastly, new SARS-CoV-2 variants emerged the past months, with higher (up to 90%) reproduction number and an increased impact on morbidity and deaths, based on model projections, compared with preexisting variants (67). The role of children in the transmission dynamics of these variants must be elucidated (67).

    So did Delta increase the risk in children and has there been an uptick in children presenting with increased illness and potential mortality?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    Oh wait, I didn't realise I was replying to your good self, hi Wibbs!


    Its too late to reply in-depth and I figure we may go round in circles at this hour but to answer two of your questions.

    Regarding measles; the measles virus moves to the lungs and replicates in lymphoid. It leaves the lungs via a different route than it entered. That gives the vaccine induced antibodies enough to time to tackle the virus before it leaves the body, generally speaking. Unfortunately Covid replication process is different.

    Regarding children and transmission to adults. Studies Ive read pre-Delta showed that child to adult transmission in household settings was far less common than adult to adult, with one study citing the risk of transmission at 52%. While its too early to see solid studies with Delta, the consensus is that Delta is of greater concern for kids and the risk of transmission is higher. These are generalised statements of course as the age of children is a meaningful consideration.

    Just as a reference point using data from the US, children accounted for c.13% of Covid case back in August 2020 (pre-Delta) where as in August 2021 that figure rose to c.22%. While adult vaccination may be a factor in that increase, it wouldn't be the sole reason.

    I dont have an answer to your question on child mortality.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭Icantthinkof1


    NIAC has recommended Covid 19 vaccine for 5-11 year olds



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    Much better off using their immune system which deals very effectively with Covid.

    Here’s another simple question: Considering so many children will have caught Covid by January, why the need to vaccinate them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Reduced chance of getting COVID.

    Reduced chance of having bad to severe symptoms if they do get it; reduced risk of hospitalisation.

    Reduced chance of transmitting it on to other people.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Reduced chance of transmitting it on to other people.

    That is totally unknown if it is a benefit of vaccinating children.

    Hence anybody who is urging people to vaccinate their 5-11 year olds to protect adults is utterly misguided, and should understand that parents can weigh up the risk/rewards for their own child.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    That is totally unknown if it is a benefit of vaccinating children.

    Bullsh1t.

    You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. Vaccination reduces (but does not eliminate) the risk of transmission of COVID. This has been proven with many different studies at this stage.

    Sources:

    * Covid-19: Do vaccines reduce the risk of spreading coronavirus? | New Scientist

    "People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

    “They absolutely do reduce transmission,” says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.” A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated.

    * One dose of COVID-19 vaccine can cut household transmission by up to half - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

    * Science Brief: COVID-19 Vaccines and Vaccination (cdc.gov)



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,185 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    I know its mentioned earlier in thread that Finland are only doing vulnerable children in the 5-11 bracket, is there a way to see how the rest of Europe is doing it and what countries are deciding for this cohort? thanks.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Of course I am not entitled to my own facts. Your sources sound impressive on the subject of "Vaccinated people" but in this discussion I think NIAC's views on children is more relevant, specifically RECOMMENDATIONS FOR COVID-19 VACCINATION FOR CHILDREN AGED 5 TO 11 YEARS 

    Although vaccination will reduce infection and prevent symptomatic disease, the impact on transmission, asymptomatic infection and duration of immunity in children aged 5 - 11 years is unknown.

    In vaccinating children aged 5-11 years, the benefits of reduced chance of transmitting it on to other people is unknown. Fact. According to the experts.

    I'll trust science and listen to the experts.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They're not free; you're paying for 'em through your taxes 😄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,000 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Your immune system with a vaccine is much more effective than without a vaccine, risk is greater when infected without a vaccine as well. But at least you're clearly in the "natural immunity" bolloxology anti-science camp.

    There will still be many many children who have not caught it yet that will get protection.

    NIAC approved today, parents will get to choose, commence the pearl clutching!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    I fully support parents right to choose. Each child might have a different circumstance and need the vaccine for underlying conditions, etc.

    I do have a very big problem with any means of coercion to get the vaccine for children. What’s anti science about natural immunity? Are you suggesting the thousands of children who’ve tested positive for Covid recently and will recover need the vaccine?



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