How will schools be able to go back in September?

Mrsmum

I think controlled mixing is necessary from here on just so we can see where this thing is going. No real point in us congratulating ourselves that the numbers are low when we are all more or less at home. it's when things open up that we'll see the true picture. So in a way we need children out in their greens etc to be mixing a bit long before we send them back to school. Regarding school in Sept, if it becomes a right mess, I think we might need to make very hard decisions. Perhaps do as the Uk are doing ie let the children of essential workers get priority going to school. It seems the general consensus from what i'm hearing is that all children will get two days in school or something like that but really a child with a stay at home parent from a purely pragmatic viewpoint does not need a school place as much as the child of a nurse who has used up all her leave etc up to this. I'm just thinking aloud here really and I think going forward, it will be all about priorities.

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

kandr10 wrote: »

Lets be honest, companies dont have a choice. I think the huge positives that will come from this is hopefully long term work/life balance with more people being able to work from home and commute less. But working from home does not mean your children at home.

This will be a huge hurdle for all working parents until creches and schools open. Lets see how long employers will be flexible when the novelty wears off.

In normal times wfh doesnt mean children at home but we are in the unknown so we will have to see what happens. Noone knows what we will be facing in September, it could be great or we could be stuck in some stage along the way to Stage 5. Either way lets hope the DoES has a plan for schools whatever it is.

I was talking to someone yesterday who has a creche and so far the date for them reopening is in June I think on a phased basis and she doesnt even know what that means or how it can be acheived as it wasnt made too clear, hopefully she will be given better information and support before reopening instead being left to sort it out herself.

My worry is that the DoES will have some lovely media soundbite which will sound great in the press but will have little substance for the people trying to implement it. That would be even more frustrating for the people trying to get back to work.

Kh1993

In primary here. I can’t wait to go back. Sitting on front of a laptop 6 hours a day isn’t what a teacher does. And it never will be. I know the kids I teach are suffering, educationally and socially. But we can only do what we can and we’re allowed.

Schools reopening will only work two ways.
1. They are massively funded to ensure daily deep cleaning, extensions/more ports cabins to ensure a decent amount of kids come to school each day. And it’s going to be grim. Everyone will suffer because it won’t be ‘normal’. And that will have to be accepted. Thinks like PE, sports, music, external coaches etc will need to be cancelled. Art? Does every child now need their own personal art supply? Reopening with distancing will cost massive money.

Or
2. Someone high up in charge defines what acceptable risk is. And we say schools go back to normal with an acceptable risk. Now that’s going to take a lot of balls from a decision maker high up. Because we are currently in a situation where politicians can’t sit in a massive well ventilated dail chamber for over two hours. In this situation teachers would need quick access to testing, sick leave rules would be tweaked to make sure sick staff don’t feel like they need to work, kids would need to be sent home immediately on any sight of sickness. But cases would inevitably go up.

Wonder which one will be more palatable?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Kh1993 wrote: »

In primary here. I can’t wait to go back. Sitting on front of a laptop 6 hours a day isn’t what a teacher does. And it never will be. I know the kids I teach are suffering, educationally and socially. But we can only do what we can and we’re allowed.

Schools reopening will only work two ways.
1. They are massively funded to ensure daily deep cleaning, extensions/more ports cabins to ensure a decent amount of kids come to school each day. And it’s going to be grim. Everyone will suffer because it won’t be ‘normal’. And that will have to be accepted. Thinks like PE, sports, music, external coaches etc will need to be cancelled. Art? Does every child now need their own personal art supply? Reopening with distancing will cost massive money.

Or
2. Someone high up in charge defines what acceptable risk is. And we say schools go back to normal with an acceptable risk. Now that’s going to take a lot of balls from a decision maker high up. Because we are currently in a situation where politicians can’t sit in a massive well ventilated dail chamber for over two hours. In this situation teachers would need quick access to testing, sick leave rules would be tweaked to make sure sick staff don’t feel like they need to work, kids would need to be sent home immediately on any sight of sickness. But cases would inevitably go up.

Wonder which one will be more palatable?

Sports teams are allowed back training on 8th of June so not sure why you think that come September PE and sports would need to be cancelled?

We'll go back to normal more or less as the guidelines will be changed and the schools will do what the government tells them to do and the government won't have any other choice.

Watch how the narrative changes around this in the media very soon.

Antibody testing, rapid contact tracing, low or non existent community spread, there will be no excuse for teachers to stay at home come September.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

there will be no excuse for teachers to stay at home come September.

Not that they're looking for an excuse.

wirelessdude01

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Sports teams are allowed back training on 8th of June so not sure why you think that come September PE and sports would need to be cancelled?

We'll go back to normal more or less as the guidelines will be changed and the schools will do what the government tells them to do and the government won't have any other choice.

Watch how the narrative changes around this in the media very soon.

Antibody testing, rapid contact tracing, low or non existent community spread, there will be no excuse for teachers to stay at home come September.

What can't you get into that head of yours?

The vast vast majority of teachers hate this online/remote learning rubbish. Give most of us a noisy classroom any day over this version of 'teaching'.

As some of us teachers have already said in here, we just hope that the dept will have some decent guidelines given to us. That these guidelines give us some structure as to what learning is to look like in sept and we can then start to plan. Looking at the fiasco around the LC and how vested interests with an agenda managed to change the narrative to something that the teachers didn't actually want, I just hope that the powers that be come up with a workable plan for us and one that we can tweak a little at local level. We do not want some vague our in the sky media soundbite that actually says nothing and leaves it all up to us at local level to middle through.

We want our students to be safe, we want their families to be safe, heaven forbid we wish to be safe as well and have a safe environment to come to work in and that the children feel safe coming to. Is that too much to hope for?

Now before anyone jumps on me and says why was I on boards while I'm meant to be teaching, I've just spent the last 50mins and counting uploading a file onto Google classroom for my class. Got to love the joys of having to hotspot your mobile data to facilitate uploading stuff.

kandr10

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Not what I said at all but with all the pearl clutching going on I'm just pointing out that at least 50% of the working population of Ireland can't work from home.

Because the 'top firms' CEO said so or some banks are allowing it, it's not enough and we all have to back at some stage unless the other 50% is happy to carry the burden for everyone (which isn't going to happen).

I wasn’t trying to paraphrase or anything - that was a genuine question.
I don’t know that there’s an even 50/50 split in the workforce of people who are in offices and those who aren’t. The point around using them as examples is to show that they are making plans.
I guess if you’re already in a job that hasn’t stopped working, the plans are there already. Like presumably your business isn’t operating as it always would and some provision has been made around covid? The point I’m making repeatedly is that the government has failed to issue a plan that would give reassurance of it being safe to return to work in childcare or education.
What do you mean by carrying the burden? Again, a genuine question - I’m really trying my best to understand the other point of view.

kandr10

jrosen wrote: »

kandr10 wrote: »

Lets be honest, companies dont have a choice. I think the huge positives that will come from this is hopefully long term work/life balance with more people being able to work from home and commute less. But working from home does not mean your children at home.

This will be a huge hurdle for all working parents until creches and schools open. Lets see how long employers will be flexible when the novelty wears off.

You’re dead right there. Working from home can’t be done effectively or efficiently unless childcare is back. How do you open childcare or education facilities safely, in accordance with current guidelines though? A lot seem to be saying social distancing won’t work for kids (understandably), we can’t reasonably wait for a vaccine, so where does the compromise happen? Genuine question again - is there actually anything in between?

Mrsmum

kandr10 wrote: »

jrosen wrote: »

You’re dead right there. Working from home can’t be done effectively or efficiently unless childcare is back. How do you open childcare or education facilities safely, in accordance with current guidelines though? A lot seem to be saying social distancing won’t work for kids (understandably), we can’t reasonably wait for a vaccine, so where does the compromise happen? Genuine question again - is there actually anything in between?

Work places are well known for saying all the right things but the reality on the ground is different. But there will just have to be huge flexibility in this case. If childcare and school can only be part time to facilitate social distancing, allowances will have to be made to allow parents to work in a flexible way.

JDxtra

It'll be an utter disaster for working parents if kids do not return to school from September.

Parents are not teachers. Working parents only have time to help with light amounts of school work. Kids will suffer hugely due to lack of actual teaching and social interaction.

We will have to live with the virus. Be sensible, take precautions – but accept some risk. Nothing is risk free. An ongoing overly cautious approach has much larger detrimental impacts for all.

wirelessdude01

Have you emailed Tony to tell him that the approach he is advocating is wrong?

plodder

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Sports teams are allowed back training on 8th of June so not sure why you think that come September PE and sports would need to be cancelled?

We'll go back to normal more or less as the guidelines will be changed and the schools will do what the government tells them to do and the government won't have any other choice.

Watch how the narrative changes around this in the media very soon.

Antibody testing, rapid contact tracing, low or non existent community spread, there will be no excuse for teachers to stay at home come September.

Lately, I've been hearing a lot about new diagnostics, and just today about a way to predict by biological markers how badly someone will be affected. A lot more will happen in the next couple of months. So, I find it hard to believe that schools will not be open in September, and really some schools should be opening now.

vid36

I think schools should open in September.However, some provision has to made for children whose parents have an underlying condition or who live with a vulnerable person such as a grandparent.Provision will also have made for teachers with underlying conditions. It will be complicated and we require very detailed planning.

Mrsmum

I suspect a lot of parents will engage a private childminder eg your child's classmate's stay at home mom,for all the back up minding that's going to be required.

Shybride2016

Mrsmum wrote: »

I suspect a lot of parents will engage a private childminder eg your child's classmate's stay at home mom,for all the back up minding that's going to be required.

Possibly. There definitely will need to be backups in place as crèches, preschools and schools illness policies will have to be adhered to much more strictly now. However if a child isn’t well enough to attend school, will another family be willing to mind them at increased risk to their own health and that of their own children? It’s a minefield.

c.p.w.g.w

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Possibly. There definitely will need to be backups in place as crèches, preschools and schools illness policies will have to be adhered to much more strictly now. However if a child isn’t well enough to attend school, will another family be willing to mind them at increased risk to their own health and that of their own children? It’s a minefield.

Could Force Majeure be used for parents of sick children if they can't go school/creche...maybe a government backed policy to fund this for employers

Mrsmum

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Possibly. There definitely will need to be backups in place as crèches, preschools and schools illness policies will have to be adhered to much more strictly now. However if a child isn’t well enough to attend school, will another family be willing to mind them at increased risk to their own health and that of their own children? It’s a minefield.

That's true but I think people will always do unofficially what officialdom can't do. Schools won't be allowed to allow a child with a temp or cough in but as we all know not every cough is Covid obviously and unfortunately small children gets lots and lots of coughs and colds. Children will be in and out of school like yoyos. Minefield is right.

wirelessdude01

vid36 wrote: »

I think schools should open in September.However, some provision has to made for children whose parents have an underlying condition or who live with a vulnerable person such as a grandparent.Provision will also have made for teachers with underlying conditions. It will be complicated and we require very detailed planning.

If I go through our staff I think we will have three teachers who won't be allowed back in September due to underlying issues either with themselves or one of their children.

Also if I go through my current class I think I make it 4 or 5 that would have things that would mean they wouldn't be allowed back or advised against.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

vid36 wrote: »

I think schools should open in September.However, some provision has to made for children whose parents have an underlying condition or who live with a vulnerable person such as a grandparent.Provision will also have made for teachers with underlying conditions. It will be complicated and we require very detailed planning.

There are large scale human trials beginning in July of a couple of vaccines that have already shown promising results in smaller trials.

If that all goes well then anyone particularly vulnerable to the virus will probably have some sort of vaccine/treatment option available to them by autumn.

Shybride2016

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Could Force Majeure be used for parents of sick children if they can't go school/creche...maybe a government backed policy to fund this for employers

I’ve been saying for a long time that there needs to be a scheme in place for working parents whereby each parent gets a certain amount of days per 12-month period that they can ring their employer in the morning and say “I can’t come in today, my child is unwell and needs to stay at home”, without being penalised financially, reputationally or whatever. One of the reasons kids minor illnesses last so long and spread like wildfire is because of the pressure working parents are under to go into work so they send their child back to childcare/school before they’re well enough to come back. This is especially true when it comes to stomach bugs IME.

At the moment I really feel employers should be doing much more to recognise the stress their staff are under whilst being forced to work to their usual capacity as well as look after their children. Would the sky really fall in if employers agreed to employees “working” for less hours per day for the same pay? Surely productivity would be somewhat at the same level if working parents could each take a 4-hour block of minding kids/working uninterrupted or work it out between them for a total of 4 hours “work”. I’m not talking about getting up at 4am or working until after midnight either.

Having said that I’m fully aware that of course a lot of parents aren’t working 9-5 Monday-Friday jobs and single parents flying solo multitasking are already playing a blinder so this wouldn’t work for everyone but surely it’s some sort of a starting point?

Whilst childcare and schools are closed, it’s really up to employers to look for solutions in terms of “work time management” for their employees. Never mind children’s mental health for a moment, working parents’ stress levels are through the roof.

Shybride2016

Mrsmum wrote: »

That's true but I think people will always do unofficially what officialdom can't do. Schools won't be allowed to allow a child with a temp or cough in but as we all know not every cough is Covid obviously and unfortunately small children gets lots and lots of coughs and colds. Children will be in and out of school like yoyos. Minefield is right.

Absolutely and this of course does happen. However in this landscape of covid19 and people’s individual willingness to risk their own or family’s health, I wonder how many people will be as willing to mind others’ kids if they don’t know for sure if it’s simply a cough or something more serious.

Wallander

A glimpse of how the debate is moving in other countries...four pediatric doctors' associations in Germany have written a joint statement demanding primary schools and creches open fully ASAP noting a low risk of infection among under 10s:

https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/bildung/corona-krise-mediziner-fordern-komplette-schul-und-kita-oeffnung-a-4d1a0336-680d-4259-818e-7a263732f811 (in German)

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Mrsmum wrote: »

I suspect a lot of parents will engage a private childminder eg your child's classmate's stay at home mom,for all the back up minding that's going to be required.

This is already happening in some form across the country, how else do you think some people who are working are able to go to work.

I know a lot of people who have had to still get childcare even though its 'not allowed'.

All the front line workers still waiting for the government to come up with a childcare solution have not been sitting at home twiddling their thumbs.

uli84

I’m about 50% less productive wfh and with my kid in, not sure how long the employers are going to be accepting that..

Shybride2016

uli84 wrote: »

I’m about 50% less productive wfh and with my kid in, not sure how long the employers are going to be accepting that..

But you have no choice at the moment because crèches and schools are closed. Where I’m coming from is that employers must accept this.
Otherwise they’re causing huge amounts of stress among their employees.

September is still over three months away so in the absence of preschools and schools reopening before then, there is still a large number of employees working from home who need support from their employers on this. Crèches reopening at the end of June is for essential workers only, not for people who have the option of working from home longer-term. Older kids who may usually go to summer camps when schools are closed won’t have that option either.

Families who rely on grandparents for childcare who may now no longer be in a position to ask (cocooning advice/underlying illness etc) need to make sure their employers understand the pressures they’re facing long-term in the absence of a childcare framework.

I hope for your sake and for many others in the same position as you that employers step up and realise they need to do something for their staff.

wirelessdude01

Wallander wrote: »

A glimpse of how the debate is moving in other countries...four pediatric doctors' associations in Germany have written a joint statement demanding primary schools and creches open fully ASAP noting a low risk of infection among under 10s:

https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/bildung/corona-krise-mediziner-fordern-komplette-schul-und-kita-oeffnung-a-4d1a0336-680d-4259-818e-7a263732f811 (in German)

Yes there is a different narrative in France, well definitely around Paris with the flareup linked to the primary schools returning.

dundalkfc10

What will happen is a % of teachers refuse to go back to work due to living with elderly, health issues in family etc?

Kris74

They then take unpaid leave with subsequent pension disruption ,same as some of my colleagues have had to do ( frontline worker with young children )

ldy4mxonucwsq6

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

What will happen is a % of teachers refuse to go back to work due to living with elderly, health issues in family etc?

They should be treated the same way as anyone else who refuses to go to work.

What about everyone else who's not a teacher and finds themselves in the same position, no employer is going to say "oh OK then you stay at home on full pay until things change".

If somebody decides not to work because of this then that should be their decision/choice and they will have to give up their position, thats the reality and there's a queue of people ready and willing to take over their job.

kowloonkev

Mrsmum wrote: »

That's true but I think people will always do unofficially what officialdom can't do. Schools won't be allowed to allow a child with a temp or cough in but as we all know not every cough is Covid obviously and unfortunately small children gets lots and lots of coughs and colds. Children will be in and out of school like yoyos. Minefield is right.

I think we really need to reduce the summer holidays by a few weeks/month and extend the other holidays around flu season. The summer holiday in Ireland is ridiculously long anyway, especially in secondary school.