SFC Final Replay - Dublin v Mayo Sat 1st October *Read Mod Note Post #1*

bucketybuck

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Had Dublin lost people would be saying the Gavin's switches backfired.

No they wouldn't, because everybody knew beforehand that those changes needed to be made, had Dublin lost it still would have been right to drop the misfiring Brogan. Dropping an in-form goalkeeper for one who hadn't played a competitive game in months is not the same as dropping a misfiring corner forward for a talent like Paul Mannion.

Also, I wish people would stop blaming the keeper for Keegans black card. Yes it was a bad kickout but Keegan earned that black card all on his own. He was pulling and dragging Connolly at every opportunity and yet again he was pulling and dragging Connolly, he has nobody but himself to blame for finally getting called on it.

gormdubhgorm

Littlehorny wrote: »

It was brought in to stop cynical fouling in the game, pulling down and third man tackles and the like. As someone said earlier there should be a ten minute sin bin when you get a yellow so your team suffers. I remember the year before it came in Tyrone were a couple of points up in a game and they literally rugby tackled lads down to stop them getting through and they were more than willing to accept a yellow card when there was only 5 or 10 minutes left in a game.

Yeah Brolly is very quiet now about the black cards. Since his rant about Cavanagh was the main driving force for the GAA's decision.
The black card has made a sh*te of football. It is too difficult to spot and police for the refs. It is also no deterrent to a fella dragging a guy down in the last few minutes of a game.

10 minute sin bin looks like the common sense option at this stage.

gormdubhgorm

All the mayo fans whinging about the ref grates on me a bit if i am honest.

Because Mayo fans must have short memories in that case have they forgotten how a.o'sheas dive v fermanagh helped them get this far in the first place?

Some refs decisions go your way and others do not. But to whinge about the ref is just cry baby stuff.

jon1981

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

10 minute sin bin looks like the common sense option at this stage.

No way! How on earth would that change things? The problem is not the form of punishment, it's the consistency and certainty of the judgement.

gormdubhgorm

jon1981 wrote: »

No way! How on earth would that change things? The problem is not the form of punishment, it's the consistency and certainty of the judgement.

It would stop fellas dragging guys down in the last few minutes of a tight game for a start.

Also earlier in the the sin bin would not be as harsh a decision as the black card which would be fairer to the players.

jon1981

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It would stop fellas dragging guys down in the last few minutes of a tight game for a start.

Also earlier in the the sin bin would not be as harsh a decision as the black card which would be fairer to the players.

I think it would have far more serious consequences for the team and I don't want to see a game marred by a sin binning. 10 mins at 14 men is huge in a 70 min game. In Rugby it's difference due to the stop/start nature of the game. At least the black card keeps the teams level to seem degree.

Borders no.2

I don't think Maurice Deegan covered himself in glory but its embarrassing seeing Mayo fans complaining about him. Yes Small should probably have been black carded early on but there were other instances such as (I think Jason Doherty) coming from 5 yards away to clatter in to Johnny Cooper after the goal which went unpunished in front of the two umpires. To see Cooper going for a trip on Vaughan summed up how ludicrous the black card really is. To me Kevin McLoughlin pulling back McMenamin in the first half to me warranted a card plus the couple of frees at the end looked soft enough to me plus the added time was more than adequate to try and level it. So while Mayo have some valid claims, to me they evened themselves out.

Consistently in recent years Mayo have been dogged by conceding a succession of frees in scorable range. It can't always be the referees fault. Another example is Seamus O'Shea. Well as he played he gave away a really brainless free in the first half through a lack of control.

gormdubhgorm

jon1981 wrote: »

I think it would have far more serious consequences for the team and I don't want to see a game marred by a sin binning. 10 mins at 14 men is huge in a 70 min game. In Rugby it's difference due to the stop/start nature of the game. At least the black card keeps the teams level to seem degree.

But nobody seems to know when it is a black card and when it is not even the refs. It is open to so much interpretation. At least this way the ref will not be able to cause as much damage to a game. Maybe 5 minutes sin bin might be enough for a gaelic match as it is faster.

Alternatively the simplest option would be to get rid of the black card altogether.

LeoB

Deleted User wrote: »

Also supposed to be on for his free taking, which he sent 30 yards wide and short. I'd expect flanagan to be backup next year with Clarke #1. Could do with the two Hanleys back in Mayo instead of of been all stars in AFL. But thats what happens counties that can't match the funding required to keep their best players at home..

Are you suggesting Dublin pay their players? Just like Mayo and every other county in Ireland some players can fixed up with jobs to get them them through third level. Nothing wrong with that. The Hanleys are right to go to A.F.L. There are a few Dubs over there also.

What are the football semi-final provincial draws for next year? Is it Connacht v Munster and Ulster v Leinster?

TCDStudent1

On Dublin

You have to hand it to this Dublin team - they are awesome. They had to overcome so much this year and still came out as champions:

- Losing their full back. This was a position that Dublin didnt really have much cover for so it was a massive loss.
- Losing Jack McCaffrey. Player of the year!
- Having to cope with Brogan's loss of form. Brogan has scored so much for them in the past that this was also huge. Where do they get the scored from when he's not doing it?

I cannot think of any team in my lifetime that could cope with losing such influential players. I believe that Dublin were not as good this year as last year but that is understandable given the players they lost. Its a wonderful achievement by them to win it out again.

Dean Rock was absolutely fantastic in the first half. Faded away a little in the second half maybe (but my guess is that he was still working very hard off the ball). I watched the game on Sky and after Rock's points, the camera would go to Rock & Higgins pushing each other. That seemed to change to Harrison at some point. Not sure if Mayo switched Harrison onto him but not many forwards get the better of Keith Higgins.

Before the match, my changes would have been: McCauley, McManaman out. Andrews, Mannion in & Flynn to midfield. I wasnt far out in Gavin's thinking. I knew McManaman didnt deserve to be dropped but he is such a great impact sub..... However, Gavin got it right. McManaman was absolutely superb yesterday and wasnt afraid to take on Mayo. Must check up if there are any stats on how far he ran and how many possessions he got.

Dublins full back line were excellent yesterday. There is a perceived weakness under the high ball but they always seem to know how to break the ball to the right person. When the ball breaks, they are probably one of the most tigerish defences around (along with Mayo's half back line maybe).

Despite all my praise for Dublin, their attack has become that bit slower this year and somewhat more indecisive. They seem to take the extra hop or solo when they should pass. Gavin didnt really experiment in the league this year. I think he may need to do so next year to 'reinvent' that Dublin attack a little. In the way Brogan was number 15 for years, you would like to see Mannion / Andrews / Costello claim a number like that as their own.



On the black cards
I am probably as confused as the next person on black cards. I try to look at it simply - if its 100% cynical and no attempt to play the ball, then black card So my take on them:

- Small: Went for the players legs; could have easily avoided his leg. Should have been black carded. Ref got it wrong.
- Cooper: It was so crowded where he caught the players leg that there is an argument to be made he was clumsy. Probably not a black card but a tough call to make for the ref.
- Keegan: No attempt to play the ball. Dragged Connolly back preventing him from making the run (it was very similar to the incident in the drawn match in run up to Dublins goal). For me, it was a definite black card. Didnt like Connolly's reaction though. Thought the referee was excellent here. He composed himself before committing to the decision. I wasnt in the stadium but I'd imagine there was some serious noise being directed to the ref at that point.
- McLoughlin: Thought he was extremely fortunate not to be black carded when he dragged down McManaman (I think). McManaman would have had a clear run in on goal and McLoughlin made no attempt to play the ball.

I am sure others will disagree but that was my take on them)

On Mayo
Firstly, it was a crazy decision to change the goalkeeper. All people were talking about yesterday was the 1 change to the Mayo team. Thats huge pressure on the goalie. It was extremely unfair of the management to put him in there. This is not being wise after the event. Chatting to friends yesterday, we all questioned what Rochford was at. I feel very sorry for Hennelly as he should never have been put in that position. I still dont really understand the logic of it. He didnt actually kick many balls long so his longer kick didnt bring any benefit. I am still flabbergasted that Rochford made that decision.

Andy Moran is a quality player. But this year & last year, he is a quality player when playing close to the opposition goal. In the first half yesterday, he was way too far from the goal. For a lot of the match, he was hovering around midfield and half forward areas. He probably doesnt have the energy to be doing that any more and he is certainly not much of a danger out there. I cant understand why he wasnt instructed to stay closer to their goal.

Before the match, I was saying that Seamie O'Shea should probably be dropped. The problem was that Mayo did not really have an alternative to start. But he was excellent yesterday. Fought really really hard.

Cillian O'Connor has to start contributing more from play. He also needs to cut out this waving his arms around and looking for soft decisions from the referee. Whatever abut his missed free, I thought there were 2 opportunities in the match where there was a shot on and he turned around & hand-passed it back. I just could not imagine Connolly or Brogan doing that. But as somebody said, he is just 24 and maybe he will improve.

I suspect that if Aidan O'Shea was playing for Dublin, we would be dealing with a whole different player. Mayo just seem to struggle to find a way to get the best out of him. Yesterday, RTE were showing the drawn match beforehand and Aidan O;Shea is kicking high ball into the full forward line - the type of ball that should be kicked into him! Mayo really need to work on delivering the right ball into him if he is in full forward.

Going forward for Mayo, there are things to be positive about. Diarmuid O'Connor is a serious talent and Patrick Durkan really settled well into the team this year. It is a shame that Mayo dont seem to have a scoring forward emerging from their underage teams. It would make such a big difference to that team. They do have a lot of mileage put in but for the most part are still relatively young. And I guess Rochford has also learnt a lot from this year. He is a young manager so there may be better to come from him. I do feel that Mayo need to sort out their club championship though. The club players were treated shamefully this year in Mayo. And sorting that out should be top priority now. There wont be any finals in the future if Mayo continue to treat club players the way they were treated this year.

Padkir

I thought some of the players who took the most stick after the drawn game, mainly Seamus O'Shea and Rock, were superb yesterday. Really a great testament to their character.

Cormac Costello won that game for Dublin when it was there to be won; just no comparison bringing on Barry Moran and Dillon vs Brogan and Costello, as sickening as it is to admit.

Gael85

Deleted User wrote: »

What are the football semi-final provincial draws for next year? Is it Connacht v Munster and Ulster v Leinster?

correct

The Talking Bread

jon1981 wrote: »

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

10 minute sin bin looks like the common sense option at this stage.

No way! How on earth would that change things? The problem is not the form of punishment, it's the consistency and certainty of the judgement.

The inconsistencies will always remain. At least the implementation of a sinbin period w/of a replacement would mitigate it somewhat. Either that or literally bin the whole thing or video ref calls. (1 for each team ) .

The Talking Bread

jon1981 wrote: »

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

10 minute sin bin looks like the common sense option at this stage.

No way! How on earth would that change things? The problem is not the form of punishment, it's the consistency and certainty of the judgement.

The inconsistencies will always remain. At least the implementation of a sinbin period w/of a replacement would mitigate it somewhat. Either that or literally bin the whole thing or video ref calls. (1 for each team ) .

runnerholic

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

On Dublin

You have to hand it to this Dublin team - they are awesome. They had to overcome so much this year and still came out as champions:

- Losing their full back. This was a position that Dublin didnt really have much cover for so it was a massive loss.
- Losing Jack McCaffrey. Player of the year!
- Having to cope with Brogan's loss of form. Brogan has scored so much for them in the past that this was also huge. Where do they get the scored from when he's not doing it?

I cannot think of any team in my lifetime that could cope with losing such influential players. I believe that Dublin were not as good this year as last year but that is understandable given the players they lost. Its a wonderful achievement by them to win it out again.

Dean Rock was absolutely fantastic in the first half. Faded away a little in the second half maybe (but my guess is that he was still working very hard off the ball). I watched the game on Sky and after Rock's points, the camera would go to Rock & Higgins pushing each other. That seemed to change to Harrison at some point. Not sure if Mayo switched Harrison onto him but not many forwards get the better of Keith Higgins.

Before the match, my changes would have been: McCauley, McManaman out. Andrews, Mannion in & Flynn to midfield. I wasnt far out in Gavin's thinking. I knew McManaman didnt deserve to be dropped but he is such a great impact sub..... However, Gavin got it right. McManaman was absolutely superb yesterday and wasnt afraid to take on Mayo. Must check up if there are any stats on how far he ran and how many possessions he got.

Dublins full back line were excellent yesterday. There is a perceived weakness under the high ball but they always seem to know how to break the ball to the right person. When the ball breaks, they are probably one of the most tigerish defences around (along with Mayo's half back line maybe).

Despite all my praise for Dublin, their attack has become that bit slower this year and somewhat more indecisive. They seem to take the extra hop or solo when they should pass. Gavin didnt really experiment in the league this year. I think he may need to do so next year to 'reinvent' that Dublin attack a little. In the way Brogan was number 15 for years, you would like to see Mannion / Andrews / Costello claim a number like that as their own.



On the black cards
I am probably as confused as the next person on black cards. I try to look at it simply - if its 100% cynical and no attempt to play the ball, then black card So my take on them:

- Small: Went for the players legs; could have easily avoided his leg. Should have been black carded. Ref got it wrong.
- Cooper: It was so crowded where he caught the players leg that there is an argument to be made he was clumsy. Probably not a black card but a tough call to make for the ref.
- Keegan: No attempt to play the ball. Dragged Connolly back preventing him from making the run (it was very similar to the incident in the drawn match in run up to Dublins goal). For me, it was a definite black card. Didnt like Connolly's reaction though. Thought the referee was excellent here. He composed himself before committing to the decision. I wasnt in the stadium but I'd imagine there was some serious noise being directed to the ref at that point.
- McLoughlin: Thought he was extremely fortunate not to be black carded when he dragged down McManaman (I think). McManaman would have had a clear run in on goal and McLoughlin made no attempt to play the ball.

I am sure others will disagree but that was my take on them)

On Mayo
Firstly, it was a crazy decision to change the goalkeeper. All people were talking about yesterday was the 1 change to the Mayo team. Thats huge pressure on the goalie. It was extremely unfair of the management to put him in there. This is not being wise after the event. Chatting to friends yesterday, we all questioned what Rochford was at. I feel very sorry for Hennelly as he should never have been put in that position. I still dont really understand the logic of it. He didnt actually kick many balls long so his longer kick didnt bring any benefit. I am still flabbergasted that Rochford made that decision.

Andy Moran is a quality player. But this year & last year, he is a quality player when playing close to the opposition goal. In the first half yesterday, he was way too far from the goal. For a lot of the match, he was hovering around midfield and half forward areas. He probably doesnt have the energy to be doing that any more and he is certainly not much of a danger out there. I cant understand why he wasnt instructed to stay closer to their goal.

Before the match, I was saying that Seamie O'Shea should probably be dropped. The problem was that Mayo did not really have an alternative to start. But he was excellent yesterday. Fought really really hard.

Cillian O'Connor has to start contributing more from play. He also needs to cut out this waving his arms around and looking for soft decisions from the referee. Whatever abut his missed free, I thought there were 2 opportunities in the match where there was a shot on and he turned around & hand-passed it back. I just could not imagine Connolly or Brogan doing that. But as somebody said, he is just 24 and maybe he will improve.

I suspect that if Aidan O'Shea was playing for Dublin, we would be dealing with a whole different player. Mayo just seem to struggle to find a way to get the best out of him. Yesterday, RTE were showing the drawn match beforehand and Aidan O;Shea is kicking high ball into the full forward line - the type of ball that should be kicked into him! Mayo really need to work on delivering the right ball into him if he is in full forward.

Going forward for Mayo, there are things to be positive about. Diarmuid O'Connor is a serious talent and Patrick Durkan really settled well into the team this year. It is a shame that Mayo dont seem to have a scoring forward emerging from their underage teams. It would make such a big difference to that team. They do have a lot of mileage put in but for the most part are still relatively young. And I guess Rochford has also learnt a lot from this year. He is a young manager so there may be better to come from him. I do feel that Mayo need to sort out their club championship though. The club players were treated shamefully this year in Mayo. And sorting that out should be top priority now. There wont be any finals in the future if Mayo continue to treat club players the way they were treated this year.

Post of the thread.

km79

I am going to bow out after this post for the year .
I just wanted to again comment on the Behaviour of 99% of the supporters yesterday . Yes there was roaring and shouting and maybe a few cross words BUT after there was hands shook and hugs shared . Sometimes this place gives a false sense of what it's really like between supporters in the real world . The GAA is a special place where we can all mix together and get on
Well done Dublin we will come again

BonnieSituation

DDC1990 wrote: »

I agree with that. Both sides were out on their feet, but the impact the Dublin subs had was phenomenal.

I don't think Mayo threw it away the first day either, but for me they were the better team that day and had they got a bit of luck, perhaps they would have won.

While that doesn't necessarily mean they threw it away, I can understand why people are saying they threw it away. It's just a different interpretation of the phrase.

What's amazing, is like last years final and the drawn game this year, the amount of time a ball spilled from a Dublin player and they had another player there in front of his man to get the ball. Most critically it happened with McAuley coming through and he lost posession, but slid and kicked the ball which ended up in Cormac Costello's hands. Costello popped it over to bring the gap to 2 again.

It must be more than luck because it happens so often. This year in the Semi Final (or maybe the league final) against Kerry, Cluxton had to rush out and boot the ball clear. It ended up going over 50m straight into Connolly's hands out on the wing. Bernard Brogan got a point at a critical stage in the Final last year where a Kerry player made a great tackle and the ball pinballed around and ended up straight in his hands, to pop over the bar.

I'd love to know how it happens.

It's similar to how Tyrone always had that second man free for high balls or how Donegal had the spare man of either shoulder.

You make your own luck as the man says. I'm just watching the game back now.

BonnieSituation

Said it yesterday watching it live, Small was blessed to still have been on the pitch after his pull down on Moran at 7min.

James McCarthy was immense on Mayo's kickouts early on.

Robeman

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I genuinely would sack Rochford that that. Its on his head.

Agreed worst selection call ever in an All Ireland. Question is who actually suggested this change.

Robeman

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

About 1-5 id say the change of keeper cost Mayo today

On the day yes but the roots of the decision to change goalie go back more than a year to before last years all Ireland.

The people behind the change of management last year got their comuppance yesterday in a way that suggests that there is such a thing as karma

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म; IPA: [ˈkərmə] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).[2] Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering.[3][4] Karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Asian religions.[5] In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives - one's saṃsāra.[6]

With origins in ancient India, karma is a key concept in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism,[7] and Taoism.[8]

Robeman

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Management won and lost that game.

And who was responsible for this management team being put in place ?? The players thats who.

Robeman

Deleted User wrote: »

For anybody who is being too harsh on Mayo, for the sake of fairness bear this in mind:
Maigh Eo, population in 2016 = 130,000 people
Áth Cliath, population in 2016 = 1,345,000 people (Source)


Well done, Mayo. You did yourselves - and football - very, very proud. Unlike 1996 you kept fighting until the end and that won you huge admiration in every county. Hold your heads high. Tá súil agam go mbeidh sibh ar ais an bhliain seo chugainn chun Sam a bhaint. Beir bua!

Offaly have a population of 78,000 approx. Since 1971 they have won 3 football All Irelands and 4 Hurling.

The Talking Bread

Robeman wrote: »

Agreed worst selection call ever in an All Ireland. Question is who actually suggested this change.

In hindsight, that was in a moment of fury yesterday when I wrote that. I think he is completely accountable, there is rumours he bowed to certain player power but he makes the calls and if that was the case, thats even worse management, especially considering all that went on last Winter.

I understand the tactical thoughts behind it but you can't take such a risk, or if you do, you should be held accountable.

I am sure he knows he made an error in judgement but to be fair to him he was equally scrupulous when he dropped Hennelly himself after the Galway game and Clarke came in and it was a masterstroke change. That was a big change at the time as it came after a mistake, albeit a big and gamechanging mistake against Galway.
He has made a few changes, dropped several players before the Championship including a very popular squad member, Mikey Conroy and mixed things around, when he felt needs be.

Most of his changes have reaped benefit but this was far too a risk when you had a keeper that was playing so well and although, seemingly a slightly inferior keeper to RH, he was full of confidence and rarely made too many errors on his kicking anyway.

He was also accustomed now to his players after a long qualifier campaign and had that final under his belt.

RH would have had that feeling of going out to prove himself also, and if you believe in that mantra, tried too hard and then after a couple of errors that led to points his confidence on the kickouts must have been spiralling down.

I really feel sorry for the guy as he was the "victim" of bad managerial astuteness and although he cant blame anyone for his own errors, he shouldn't have been there to make them.

Great mentality in that Mayo squad the way they keep coming back as hungry as ever before and that should stand in good stead for him and his confidence being regained once he gets over this tough period.

No sympathy for Rochford though (for that decision). You live and die by the sword. I'd equally praise him for his calculated decisions that worked. And, I don't think he just be sacked, as much as that was raging in my mind yesterday!!

Robeman

Noveight wrote: »

Is there any reason as to why Clarke didn't start?

Someday the truth will come out in the open for all to see.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

PhoneMain

Robeman will you ever give it a break, you're getting boring now. I don't know whats annoying me more, this ****e you're spouting or the fact I can hear the Dublin celebrations from my bedroom window.

Robeman

frostyjacks wrote: »

Who will the Mayo players blame now? Dublin were there for the taking in both games, and Mayo simply didn't have the cojones to take them out. It's ridiculous that they have a virtual guaranteed place in the quarter finals every single year and they still can't win it.

Pick one of the following

The ref
The weather
The opposition
The manager
The county board
The curse
The football
The dietician
The media
The hotel
The bus
The gear
The state of the pitch

anybody except themselves.

Will they now write another arrogent letter to the county board letting them know who is to blame and looking for total power to make all the decisions next season.

What they should now do is write three letters, to People of Mayo, County Board and Connnolly \ Holmes apologising for their arrogent behavoir this past year

The flying mouse

Mayo are not going to win Sam Maguire anytime soon, according to the Sunday Game panel.

Asked if Mayo could win Sam Maguire in the next couple of years, there was an almost unanimous ‘no’ from the panel of Colm O’Rourke, Pat Spillane, Ciaran Whelan, Dessie Dolan and Tomás Ó Sé, while Joe Brolly asked why they couldn’t do it, and remained perplexed as to how they messed up in the replay.

“It was Dublin’s two flattest performances of the year, they were there for the taking but why did we all say 'no'?"

Former Mayo player Martin Carney warned that the psychological damage done by coming so close once again is yet to be revealed.

He said: “They drew level four times with Dublin, they never got ahead at critical moments.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/1002/820909-sunday-game-panel-on-mayo-prospects/

So the so called experts are saying there's no way Mayo are getting Sam soon ?

The Talking Bread

Ah, lads, two or three of the lads on the Saturday Game last night putting up Cluxton as Player of the year potential and all of them putting him up as goalie of the year was silly season stuff.

Dont get me wrong, fabulous keeper, leader and had a very good game yesterday but POTY potential, never mind goalie of the year!! Am I missing something here?