Ukraine: As it happens.

Cool_CM

Jonny7 wrote: »

With heavy bias

Yup, screetags are saying:
Protesters break police lines and try to move on parliament.
Interior minister states protesters are using firearms.

Some others such as security being stepped up at parliament building but they are currently on a break.

You should be able to stream here:

http://rt.com/on-air/

Lou.m

I get the impression that pulling out of a trade agreement with the EU was an under the table condition of a Russian bailout and that people expect other conditions favorable to Russia.

Right Sector, a militant far-right group, added to tension by calling on people holding weapons to go to Independence Square, center of the revolt, to protect it from a possible offensive by security forces.

The Ukraine also has HUGE energy debts to RUSSIA and I mean HUGE.

This is how Russia is reporting it apparently.

As protesters and police battled on the streets of Kiev, Russia called the escalation a "direct result of connivance by Western politicians and European structures that have shut their eyes ... to the aggressive actions of radical forces".

Lou.m

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

The Guardian is worth a look:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/18/ukraine-police-storm-kiev-protest-camp-live-updates

Thank You.

Lou.m

Phoenix wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX5jkTqLLSs

This part of the world has been so much and just a couple of years ago it looked SO hopeful

suicide_circus

Russian Representative: The Soviet Union will be pleased to offer amnesty to your wayward vessel.

United States Representative: Soviet Union? I thought you guys broke up.

Russian Representative: Nyet! That's what we wanted you to think, hahahahahaha!

Dyr

I guess Putin got sick of the muricans sponsoring trouble in his back yard

Lou.m

Ukraine's channel 5 was shut down but is now back on youtube

It looks very near to complete breakdown. They are ordering women and children to leave the area. That is NEVER a good sign.

Lou.m

Bambi wrote: »

I guess Putin got sick of the muricans sponsoring trouble in his back yard

I do think the west should have paid more attention to the way their behavior affected bystanders to be honest.

Micky Dolenz

fcuk, this is going to get messy.

Donkey Oaty

Lou.m wrote: »

I do think the west should have paid more attention to the way their behavior affected bystanders to be honest.

Do elaborate - interested to hear your views on this, as many think the West did feck all.

downonthefarm

Haha his name is bender

Karl Stein

suicide_circus wrote: »

Russian Representative: The Soviet Union will be pleased to offer amnesty to your wayward vessel.

United States Representative: Soviet Union? I thought you guys broke up.

Russian Representative: Nyet! That's what we wanted you to think, hahahahahaha!

US Representative: NATO will be pleased to offer amnesty to your wayward vessel.

Russian Rep: NATO? Weren't you supposed to wrap up after the Red Menace threat evaporated and didn't you assure Moscow you would not extend NATO into former eastern bloc countries?

US Rep: Lol, that's what we wanted you to think, hahahahahaha!

Lou.m

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10639419/Vladimir-Putin-would-welcome-closer-ties-between-EU-and-Ukraine.html

This is what the Telegraph has to say:

Vladimir Putin said on Friday he would welcome closer economic ties between the European Union and Ukraine, in a move that may signal a way out of the crisis that has engulfed the country for the past two months.

The Russian president’s comments were relayed by German diplomats after a meeting between the country’s foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, and Mr Putin in Moscow.

I don't know how genuine that is though.

I get the impression the EU is more popular in Ukraine than the US and perhaps Putin is trying to draw a line between publicly being against the US and the EU??

They might be using a recent event where there was a leaked phone call where an US diplomat dissed the EU saying the UN should handle the picking of a govt and ' F the EU'

In the recording, US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and US ambassador to Kiev, Geoff Pyatt, discuss frankly which opposition figures should go into the new Ukrainian government.

"That would be great I think to help glue this thing and have the UN glue it and you know, **** the EU," Nuland says.

Ukraine such a beautiful country. :-(

Donkey Oaty

I don't want to just post updates from the newsfeeds for the sake of it, but this one via the BBC is noteworthy:

20:27: Several thousand protesters have seized the state regional administration building in the western Ukrainian city of Lviv, reports news agency Interfax

Micky Dolenz

It's civil war.

Sir Oxman

mike65 wrote: »

The OP of this thread might consider the difference between Ireland and Ukraine

Why?
Because of the fear of repercussion from the state that is meant to serve us?

I don't understand - the Ukraine protests were peaceful which that OP states as a method, fear of state escalation to violence doesn't negate the need for that protest.

Ireland is very pathetic in comparison. Trudge on, doff the cap, eat yer spuds.

Daisy 55

Had a lovely summer holiday with our two small children, only 3 years ago! Were hoping to go back at some time. Very sad to see this.

For Forks Sake

http://www.bloomberg.com/live-stream/

Better quality stream than some of the others.

Jonny7

According to the authorities this is an "anti-terror operation"

as they go in with AK's

**** off

Turner

Footage of the crowd attacking a lone police officer, knocking him unconscious and dragging his lifeless body away from police and into the crowd.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fec_1392732158

I presume he is the police officer who was murdered today.


Its time the Ukrainian government put a stop to this, no police force or armed forces would stand for that.

Jonny7

Turner wrote: »

Its time the Ukrainian government put a stop to this, no police force or armed forces would stand for that.

You are aware these security forces are beating and killing people..

They "crucified" and tortured one opposition member and left him for dead

When the police act like this, what do you expect?

Lou.m

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Do elaborate - interested to hear your views on this, as many think the West did feck all.

I think whatever happens in the area that involves the west is amplified by it's ties with Russia.

Certain comments by US diplomats about the picking of govt positions and not realizing the feeling Russia would have of a noose around a limb.

Ukraine is important to the Europeans, but it is crucial to Russia, for reasons transcending economic and trade ties. In the battle for influence over Ukraine, the Russians have an advantage, but Kyiv will continue entertaining both sides to extract as many concessions as it can.

It is a question of what the West would like vrs what Russia needs. Ukraine is also important for military reasons; the Ukrainian city of Sevastopol is the headquarters for Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. Ukraine’s strategic location as a borderland between Russia and Europe and its proximity to Russia’s own breadbasket and economic heartland in the Volga region make the country key to Russia’s geopolitical strength and, ultimately, its survival.

Russia was not playing fair of course ...but I think the US did not realize or chose not to care about how crucial the Ukraine is to Russia. ANd did not contemplate how growing relationships with the West threaten Russia grips which Russia sees as crucial.

A strong Russia allied with Ukraine gives Moscow confidence and strength, particularly in dealing with Europe, while a Russia without Ukraine is weak to its core.

The West has been trying to lure the Ukraine. The main issue was a free trade agreement between the EU and Ukraine. But many of Ukraine's goods are not as competitive in the EU as they are in Russia.

Putin pushed back saying if there was an EU/Ukraine agreement then RUssia would put duties on Ukrainian goods..and this would destroy Ukriane exports Russia accounts of 40% of these.

I don't think the West cared or understood how important Russia and Ukrainian were to each other and how potentially damaging and poisonous either could choose to make that relationship to the other if they chose. Infact I think the west used it as a potential to weaken russia. Or that is how the russians saw it.

If the west did not see how it could weaken Russia I would be extremely surprised. I am not saying that was the intent. But they should have realized Russian fears and realized what that could make Russia capable of and what the effects would be on the Ukraine and what it's govt would have to do.

And the EU has done little. Putin will attempt to persuade Ukraine to join the Customs Union with Russia and Kazakhstan rather than establish a free trade deal with the European Union.

Despite its rhetoric, Russia is not as interested in Ukraine’s accession to the Customs Union as it is in deterring further Ukrainian integration into Europe.

Any action taken by the US and EU could be motivated by economic interest, not support for democratic and civil rights.

“In this whole march towards the East, Ukraine is the prize. It’s the most European, it’s the largest, it’s in resource terms the richest…and the West wants to take that from Russia.”

This may be propaganda but in a way it is how one side sees things.

A main player in the turmoil in the Ukraine is George Soros, the multibillionaire hedge fund pirate who controls the fortunes of the British Royal family.

The most violent of the demonstrators claiming to speak for all of the Ukraine is the Spilna Sprava which has direct connections to George Soros, the EU and the IMF.

We know that talking about US and EU, or even EU acting "very coherent economic, political and military unison" is outright fantastic and silly. But it plays well with some in the Ukraine.

There was a lot of propaganda (like there is here during referendums ) that the EU trade agreement was going to dismantle social services etc.

I am not familiar with the agreement but even the rumor would inflame a tense situation.

The truth may be an aggressive minority is trying to force it's will on the Ukraine. But the west has not worked together to play a smart game at all.

The Russians seem keen to publicly stress they welcome EU and Ukraine trade ...in fact the Russians are complicity involved in the leaked phone call which a US diplomat said 'F the EU ' recently in talking about plans for Ukraine.

I wish I knew more I don't claim to have a great knowledge of the conflict maybe someone else knows more.

Donkey Oaty

For Forks Sake wrote: »

http://www.bloomberg.com/live-stream/

Better quality stream than some of the others.

Just looking at that, it appears that a change in wind-direction could be decisive.

Lou.m

Daisy 55 wrote: »

Had a lovely summer holiday with our two small children, only 3 years ago! Were hoping to go back at some time. Very sad to see this.

It is supposed to be beautiful and the people lovely.

Karl Stein

Turner wrote: »

Its time the Ukrainian government put a stop to this, no police force or armed forces would stand for that.

Em.. they're no longer 'police' when they start battering and shooting protesters at the behest of a corrupt anti-democratic 'government' - at that point they're just terrorists in uniforms and deserve to lose their monopoly on beating and shooting.

Lou.m

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Just looking at that, it appears that a change in wind-direction could be decisive.

I think broadcasters are being shutdown occasionally.

Germany seems to be emerging as the biggest player in the EU ...and distinct from the US it must be pissing off the UK no end.

BERLIN - Germany is seeking to play good cop to America's bad cop in Western efforts to mediate between the government and protesters in Ukraine in an early test of the German government's efforts at a more robust foreign policy role.

The Germans have refused to back Washington's calls for sanctions against Ukraine's government to pressure it into accepting opposition demands for reforms.

At the same time, Germany has launched a flurry of diplomacy toward Kyiv and Moscow — a key ally of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych — while trying to promote selected Ukrainian opposition leaders as legitimate negotiating partners.

Sweden and the Baltic nations, which have pressed for a harder line against the former Soviet republic and Germany seems to have gone out on it's own without discussing things with her EU partners. But it fits in with the German government's recent pledge for a more assertive role on the international stage I don't know how that will play with the rest of the EU. And it seems disorganized. Germany cannot really afford to play fire with Russia.

Germany has been working with Poland. These events affect Poland most I think. Poland can;t really stand up to Russia. Germany is in a better position to.

Germany was Key in getting Yulia Tymeshenko released but completely misjudged how popular Tymeshenko was/ is and how much reform Tymeshenko could bring. I think germany over estimated support form ordinary Ukrainians.

I think the goal is settling political unrest whilst not causing a rift with Russia. I don't know how possible that is.

And ordinary Ukrainians seem sick of the tug of war.

Turner

Jonny7 wrote: »

You are aware these security forces are beating and killing people..

They "crucified" and tortured one opposition member and left him for dead

When the police act like this, what do you expect?

No i didn't see footage of that... Any link?

Harold Weiss

suicide_circus wrote: »

****ing Russians

What you're forgetting is the current government was elected by a majority of Ukranians. Just because the US and EU want to install their own puppet government, doesn't change this.

You can hear American diplomats discussing what people should be ruling Ukraine. It's hilarious you think this is all about human rights . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM

Daisy 55

Lou.m wrote: »

It is supposed to be beautiful and the people lovely.

It was lovely! We only went to Kiev and Lviv though. That took two night trains! Would love to see a bit more...Odessa maybe. Will have to wait for a while now. Very sad to see.

Harold Weiss

Jonny7 wrote: »

You are aware these security forces are beating and killing people..

They "crucified" and tortured one opposition member and left him for dead

When the police act like this, what do you expect?

The US want to overthrow a democratically elected government and you support it. Nice to know you believe in the democratic process...US style.