Ukraine: As it happens.

jimeryan22

As gerald celente says, "yeah great, become part of the E.U so they be can be just like us (Ireland) Portugal, Spain, Italy, Broke, and unelected people making our laws"

Stavros Murphy

Have to say, I'd be on the side of the protesters, I usually am, pretty much regardless, as protesting takes effort, and for people to go to the effort, somthing usually has to be fairly fcuked up in the first place. Most people would rather be having a beer. I exclude Swampy-the-tree-gowl and his ilk from that sweeping statement of support, but in general, Governments have the "being right cnuts that need stones thrown at them" side of things pretty much sewn-up.

Eight Ball

The Aussie wrote: »

From the saftey of an Armchair, yes.

Not to sure I would like to be on the ground there to be honest.

Nobody would but those people are standing up and putting their neck on the line for a cause they believe in and that in itself is to be respected.

The Aussie

Eight Ball wrote: »

Nobody would but those people are standing up and putting their neck on the line for a cause they believe in and that in itself is to be respected.

Did not say anything about not respecting their stance, I'm not sure I would be describing the smell of revolution (Death and Maiming) as wonderful, other than the safety of an Armchair.

Eight Ball

The Aussie wrote: »

Did not say anything about not respecting their stance, I'm not sure I would be describing the smell of revolution (Death and Maiming) as wonderful, other than the safety of an Armchair.

Yeah you already said that I get it that you don't think it's wonderful now.

The Aussie

Eight Ball wrote: »

Yeah you already said that I get it that you don't think it's wonderful now.

Just answering your question, for some reason you needed it spelt out for you, I can do up pictures there if you need them there champ

bear1

I wonder if these riots/war could spill out into Belarus which is more often then not in a far worse position than Ukraine?
Seeing those youtube videos of people laying on the ground is terrible, can't believe there is a thread wondering why we don't do the same thing in Ireland. Madness

KyussBishop

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

From Eastern European perspective, I read some comments on Polish forums (ignoring official media) and generally it's acknowledged that there's people protesting who just want EU and are frustrated with what's going on. Would be better if they actually knew that their country after joining EU will be, bought by foreign capital making big $$ in the process. Let's face it - it's a big market and EU folks were "disappointed" that they won't be able to exploit it if Ukraina went Russian way.
Now US, they want more power in the region and Russia understandably protest.

As much as I hate what Russians and Germans did during wars I have to admit that their's current foreign affairs dept (Lavrow) is doing great job.

But there is a strong far right wing there at these protests calling Bandera their hero. That man is responsible for leading armed groups who did mass killings of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people in deeply disturbing manner. They were simply having best joy during these killings. Guess what we are facing now if these far right people take over.

My grandparents had to flee Ukraine because of extermination of Poles, Jewish, Slovaks and Russians on that land (was part of Poland back then), burning entire villages, children, women, cutting pregnant women open, tortures on mass scale - i.e. "attaching" children to table top with a knife put through their tongue, letting them die slowly, throwing newborns on doors or fence. Unexplainable cruelty on a mass scale.

There's voices that ok, Janukowycz broke promises he did when being chosen but it was democratically chosen government after all.
There's time for revolution when you're ruled by autocratic govt, but if it's a democratic govt, it's a different story. Time for change it is at elections.

Supporting that far wing is just stupid, end of.

How influential is that far-right element and who is supporting them (if anyone), do you know?

Jonny7

oak5548 wrote: »

I still dont think many people realize the extent of how serious this is, seeing as most media outlets are hardly reporting it as any more than just run of the mill riots.

Also, I love seeing the "police" get the absolute shít beat out of them in that video. Because the ukranian riot police, berkut, titushki and various other government thugs are nothing but murdering scumbags.
The current ukrainian government are absolute filth, and I hope they get whats coming to them.

There is a serious savage element to the Ukrainian security services - in fact many cite it as one cause for the protests last year

However, unfortunately, decent police officers, e.g. traffic cops are getting caught up in the violence

There are violent elements to both sides - however watching the police beat protesters in handcuffs and seeing evidence of the horrific torture detainees has received in custody means that the security services are going beyond their remit and as such can be held more accountable

Which means the presidency and leadership of the country is directly accountable

I see sanctions passing because of this

Jonny7

Oh, and as usual the "excuse" has come out - that they are dealing with a terrorist organisation

Which was the same excuse given in virtually every N African and Arab uprising, including Erdogan in Turkey

The protesters are "terrorists" and this is used to justify the extreme violence

Crann na Beatha

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hjkl

Jonny7 wrote: »

Oh, and as usual the "excuse" has come out - that they are dealing with a terrorist organisation

Which was the same excuse given in virtually every N African and Arab uprising, including Erdogan in Turkey

The protesters are "terrorists" and this is used to justify the extreme violence

The word terrorist has been over used so much in the last 10-15 years that it has lost all meaning.

Governments label a group as terrorists and then feel free to act whatever way they wish towards them. Pretty much every group that has activitally protested against and opposed a government has been labelled as terrorists.

Eight Ball

The Aussie wrote: »

Just answering your question, for some reason you needed it spelt out for you, I can do up pictures there if you need them there champ

No it didn't need to be spelt out at all. You have a different opinion than me on the matter end of.

6781

KyussBishop wrote: »

How influential is that far-right element and who is supporting them (if anyone), do you know?

I know groups like right seckor have been growing in size with young men at an alarming rate. I'm not sure what kind of influence they have throughout Ukraine but most of the violence from protesters can be attributed to them.

Crann na Beatha

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The Aussie

Eight Ball wrote: »

No it didn't need to be spelt out at.

Sorry, i thought you came across as confused.

Eight Ball wrote: »

You have a different opinion than me on the matter.

Yes we do, I look at it as a sad thing, where as you seem to be titilated by the proceedings,

Eight Ball wrote: »

end of.

I doubt it will be... :rolleyes:

Crann na Beatha

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The_Valeyard

This will lead to civil war if both sides do not start properly negotiating.

Dyr

Einhard wrote: »

I stopped reading these types of threads on boards because no matter what the conflict, no matter who the main actors, and who the perpetrators, there will always, always be a significant number of posters who will pile in with their anti-American biases, and firmly blame America for what's going on. It's just so bloody banal and inane at this stage, and yet nevertheless somewhat perverse that some peoples' response to any tragedy is to use it as an excuse to have a go at America.

That might be a valid position if america had'nt been caught with their hand in the cookie jar

It's not bias when it's happened

Eight Ball

The Aussie wrote: »

Sorry, i thought you came across as confused.



Yes we do, I look at it as a sad thing, where as you seem to be titilated by the proceedings,




I doubt it will be... :rolleyes:

Ah the rolleyes, lol you are wrong it is the end of it. Good day.

Eight Ball

The_Valeyard wrote: »

This will lead to civil war if both sides do not start properly negotiating.

Let's hope the government side sees sense and it doesn't come to that but yes its not looking good for Ukraine at all.

shedweller

Bambi wrote: »

That might be a valid position if america had'nt been caught with their hand in the cookie jar

It's not bias when it's happened

This cookie jar:

US Assistant Secretary of State for Europe, Nuland said: “Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. ” Nuland said the United States will continue to “promote Ukraine to the future it deserves.”

Donkey Oaty

From the mirror.co.uk

It's also being reported that the International Olympic Committee has turned down a request from Ukrainian athletes to wear black armbands at the Winter Olympics in Sochi in memory of the 26 people who have been killed in the violence.

That strikes me as pretty lousy from the IOC, given that the dead include protestors, police and a journalist and the armbands could be seen as a non-political gesture.

The Aussie

Eight Ball wrote: »

lol you are wrong it is the end of it.

The smell of hypocrisy is a wonderful thing :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Eight Ball wrote: »

The smell of revolution is a wonderful thing.

Looks and smells like titilation to me.

Eight Ball wrote: »

Good day.

Better than the people of the Ukraine.

Eight Ball wrote: »

Ah the rolleyes.

Yes they are :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

6781

Not going to post them but in some of the videos I see the violence is really brutal. 10-15 men beating one police man on his own with bats and clubs until other protesters came and stopped it. Others of dead bodies lying on the street. Enough is enough.

bear1

The amount of cars with Ukrainian plates in Warsaw during the last few days is a testament for how bad things are getting.
Now with the border being blocked this seems to be getting worse and worse.
Amazing how looking out my window now I see people heading to work, walking around, shopping, laughing and barely 300km away it's pure anarchy.

hatrickpatrick

The_Valeyard wrote: »

This will lead to civil war if both sides do not start properly negotiating.

It's too late for that IMO. Once protesters start getting killed, either the regime has to go or civil war will follow. Syria and Libya underline this completely.

Crann na Beatha

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jimeryan22

frimpong wrote: »

The word terrorist has been over used so much in the last 10-15 years that it has lost all meaning.

Governments label a group as terrorists and then feel free to act whatever way they wish towards them. Pretty much every group that has activitally protested against and opposed a government has been labelled as terrorists.

Dead right... Governments label anyone who doesn't agree with them "terrorists"... Crazy, look up the new American army manuals, and they say the new threat is "home grown terrorists" the old "al queda" ones a bit worn out now that everyone knows they're being run by the very governments telling you they're protecting you from them, by taking our libertys... Terrorist is the new word for people who:
Don't like their public "servants" lying to us daily while allowing banks to rob the world, and their kids, and their kids kids...
Don't want to go to war/send there kids to war... For a lie
Iraq, afganistan, Libya. (Syria, when enough zombies believe the hype).
Etc etc etc etc etc

Direct democracy..!!!!! The Swiss can't be wrong, richest country on the planet, and anyone know when the last time they were in a war..?
Oh and they are all armed and don't have a problem with gun crime.. Wow

Eight Ball

The Aussie wrote: »

The smell of hypocrisy is a wonderful thing :rolleyes::rolleyes:



Looks and smells like titilation to me.



Better than the people of the Ukraine.





Yes they are :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes indeed.

jimeryan22

shedweller wrote: »

This cookie jar:

US Assistant Secretary of State for Europe, Nuland said: “Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. ” Nuland said the United States will continue to “promote Ukraine to the future it deserves.”

Ermm. When's America gonna worry about their own house, rather than trying to police the world... The Americans I know don't want their country (in debt like everyone else's) paying constantly for other country's problems
"NO FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENTS"
Read the constitution

Crann na Beatha

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The_Valeyard

Bosnia 2.0?

murpho999

bear1 wrote: »

The amount of cars with Ukrainian plates in Warsaw during the last few days is a testament for how bad things are getting.
Now with the border being blocked this seems to be getting worse and worse.
Amazing how looking out my window now I see people heading to work, walking around, shopping, laughing and barely 300km away it's pure anarchy.

In all fairness , they are 300km away. What do you expect people in Warsaw to do?

No different to the difference between Dublin and Belfast 20 years ago.

bear1

murpho999 wrote: »

In all fairness , they are 300km away. What do you expect people in Warsaw to do?

No different to the difference between Dublin and Belfast 20 years ago.

I don't think you get what I mean, I don't expect the people of Warsaw to do anything. Why would I?
I'm merely saying how different life is here at the moment compared to there.

6781

Photos here. Some not suitable for work.

http://totallycoolpix.com/2014/02/kiev-riots-turn-deadly/

Crann na Beatha

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Donkey Oaty

Phoenix wrote: »

Lviv region has declared independence from the rest of Ukraine,Polish government states we may be witnessing the first hour of a civil war

Phoenix, thanks for the updates. Which sources are you monitoring?

Crann na Beatha

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Crann na Beatha

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Micky Dolenz

Thanks Phoenix.

bear1

Phoenix wrote: »

Lviv region has declared independence from the rest of Ukraine,Polish government states we may be witnessing the first hour of a civil war

Holy fook

SEPT 23 1989

protesters(and their backers) = good

elected government=bad

Rhys Essien

Phoenix wrote: »

Lviv region has declared independence from the rest of Ukraine,Polish government states we may be witnessing the first hour of a civil war

Is Lviv the only Oblast(region) in western Ukraine that would be fully pro European?.Would it make more sense for the Governors of all the western Ukrainian Oblasts to unite to create West Ukraine?.

Crann na Beatha

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Rhys Essien

With Lviv wanting to go alone will make the whole thing very messy.

Donkey Oaty

Rhys Essien wrote: »

With Lviv wanting to go alone will make the whole thing very messy.

They seem to have declared independence from the current government, though - not declared themselves a breakaway republic.

Crann na Beatha

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bear1

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

They seem to have declared independence from the current government, though - not declared themselves a breakaway republic.

Correct, but they aren't far off from it.
Lviv has always been a particular city, being once a Polish city and it has many Polish ties so it has always been a more "western" type of city.
I believe Crimea is also a slightly autonomous region but I would guess they would be more torwards Russia than the EU.

Karl Stein

U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Paytt has said that the United States holds Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych responsible for the escalation of the crisis in Ukraine, as Dzerkalo Tyzhnia weekly (ZN.UA) quotes the U.S. diplomat as saying.

interfax.com.ua

Echoes of Syria: 'We hold Assad Responsible for the crisis'.

Surely talk like that only escalates the tensions and turns the crisis into a zero-sum-game for those in power?