Ukraine: As it happens.

bear1

Lou.m wrote: »

Some Georgians on the streets are showing support for the protestors. This has more sides than US and Russia i think.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2522175/Fight-breaks-Georgian-parliament-plans-support-Ukrainian-opposition.html

Yet I think their govt is divided.









http://tvnwarszawa.tvn24.pl/informacje,news,lzy-i-modlitwa-przed-ambasada-ukrainy,114181.html

Poland showing support for the protestors against Russia too.

Can any of our Polish community in Ireland say what the general feeling is there?

I'm not Polish but I'm in Warsaw at the moment.
As I wrote before, the feeling is somewhat anti-Russian, mostly historical reasons.
The people I've interracted with are supporting the protesters.
News is showing it 24/7 and I guess it's an even bigger deal for Poland as it share it's border with Ukraine and many Ukrainians move to Poland for a better life.
General feeling is that the president should step down and someone more open minded to take control

Karl Stein

Jonny7 wrote: »

rabidly anti-US

Again this is a quasi-fascist tactic used to try to shut down dissent. Anyone critical of US foreign policy 'Hates America'.

Now maybe you cannot make the distinction between 'rabidly anti-US' and being critical of US foreign policy but those are your failings and you should not think everyone else is unable to delineate the two like you.

Nuland is peanuts compared to Rove, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Bolton

The fact that she's appointed to such a position considering the bunch of wartards she's in alliance with is telling.

Impartiality and objectivity fly out the window and every international situation becomes another excuse to rant about a exaggerated Chomsky-esque agenda neatly orchestrated from Washington..

I haven't read or listened to one article by Chomsky on this issue fwiw but, tell me, what's the 'Chomsky-esque agenda'? Or have you resorted to conspiracy theories? A favoured term of yours and lazy way of trying to poison the well.

e.g. the situation in Ukraine, subject to standard intl. real politik is suddenly a hawkish plan from capitol hill to usurp Yanukovych or whatever drivel I'm reading in this thread

You seem to have your head stuck firmly in the sand (again) when others draw attention to external actors particularly US diplomats and US 'NGO's'.

I can't say I'm surprised.

Lou.m

bear1 wrote: »

As I said before, this is in my opinion. I don't believe the US is trying to cause a revolution in Ukraine.. Again this is my opinion.
As I wrote before, I've been to Ukraine numerous times and I've spoken to people about their attitudes and it's quite clear that the western part of Ukraine prefers Europe and the East with Russia.
They only needed the final straw for this all to blow up.
The trade deal was that straw.
I have no problem with criticism of the US's foreign policy, there are things I disagree with as well and I was also against the Iraqi invasion. Made a balls of the whole thing.
Where I am at the moment, it's more of a question of how Europe is acting towards this. Most of the people aren't happy with Europe's response.
The US will obviously have an interest in EU affairs considering how much of their trade is with us, it would be the same if the roles were reversed.
So to sum up, I believe and so do others around me that Ukraine has been split due to one mans incompetence and a civil war is now looming. For me, this isn't the US's fault.

What do you think a solution is drawing a new border or is that too extreme???

Lou.m

bear1 wrote: »

I'm not Polish but I'm in Warsaw at the moment.
As I wrote before, the feeling is somewhat anti-Russian, mostly historical reasons.
The people I've interracted with are supporting the protesters.
News is showing it 24/7 and I guess it's an even bigger deal for Poland as it share it's border with Ukraine and many Ukrainians move to Poland for a better life.
General feeling is that the president should step down and someone more open minded to take control

Thank you .

Does it look likely he will?

I wonder who the candidates could be ?

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Dyr

Jonny7 wrote: »

You are aware these security forces are beating and killing people..

They "crucified" and tortured one opposition member and left him for dead

When the police act like this, what do you expect?

But it turned out he was'nt dead at all and lived to tell the international media all about! How very remiss of them

bear1

Lou.m wrote: »

What do you think a solution is drawing a new border or is that too extreme???

Probably too extreme. You also have the issue of Crimea which I believe claims to be independent or something along those lines.
You'd also have the issue of Transnitria in Moldova popping up. They are also claiming independence so it would be a bit of a cluster **** in my opinion.
Best solution is to solve this as politically correct as possible.
Just isn't possible when the president is pro-Russia

Lou.m wrote: »

Thank you .

Does it look likely he will?

I wonder who the candidates could be ?

I don't think he will for now, Putin has him too much by the balls.
They bought most of their debt (I believe this is on hold now) and reduced the cost of gas for them.
That boxer lad seems to be winning a few votes

Phoenix wrote: »

Oh What a beautiful country that occupies a corner of my heart:(

Which part are you from?

Lou.m

bear1 wrote: »

That boxer lad seems to be winning a few votes

Vitali Klitschko?

I think people say he can stand up to Putin.

I don't know much of him though. I think he has German Ties I mean he is known in Germany as a boxer. But I mean his brother is Wladimir Klitschko...he is dating Hayden Panittierre !!

Vitali Klitschko has been accused of working as a debt collector in the 1990s for mafia boss Viktor Rybalko.
They too seem a bit too removed and part of a glamorous corrupt oligarchy to me.


He has been urging protestors to fight against armed forces which seems crazy.

Opposition boss Vitali Klitschko urged them to defend the base, saying: “We will not go anywhere. This is an island of freedom and we will defend it.”

Pro-Western politician Klitschko, the former heavyweight boxer, urged women and children to leave the main protest camp as riot police massed nearby.

I don't know if he is someone wise to have around in such a climate.

WellThen?

http://thoughtcatalog.com/danielle-ryan/2014/02/i-am-a-ukrainian-this-needs-to-go-viral/#yTBAtX3belz7w27D.01

This is going viral now

Jonny7

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Again this is a quasi-fascist tactic used to try to shut down dissent. Anyone critical of US foreign policy 'Hates America'.

Now maybe you cannot make the distinction between 'rabidly anti-US' and being critical of US foreign policy but those are your failings and you should not think everyone else is unable to delineate the two like you.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53509419

Me making your argument

There's criticism and then there's irrational bias.. it's firmly in the latter category

I haven't read or listened to one article by Chomsky on this issue fwiw but, tell me, what's the 'Chomsky-esque agenda'? Or have you resorted to becoming conspiracy theories? A favoured term of yours and lazy way of trying to poison the well.

You're gonna love Chomsky - try "manufacturing consent".. actually on second thought, no don't

You seem to have your head stuck firmly in the sand (again) when others draw attention to external actors particularly US diplomats and US 'NGO's'.

I can't say I'm surprised.

It's no secret how the US, EU or Russia feel or are divided over the Ukrainian issue. I just find it astonishing how some feel the need to invent a narrative for it on top of that

Lou.m

WellThen? wrote: »

http://thoughtcatalog.com/danielle-ryan/2014/02/i-am-a-ukrainian-this-needs-to-go-viral/#yTBAtX3belz7w27D.01

This is going viral now

I saw this a few days ago I posted it on facebook a few days ago.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Jonny7

Bambi wrote: »

But it turned out he was'nt dead at all and lived to tell the international media all about! How very remiss of them

The guy was taken, heavily beaten, had nails beaten into his hands and later left for dead in the snow

The very fact that he was the head of one of the opposition protest movements is the reason it gained such media exposure, especially in the Ukraine where he was fairly well known - also the very graphic photos

and you're saying.. "how convenient"??

Like I said earlier, is there a full moon out tonight or something

Lou.m

Very moving.

bear1

What a video, i hope their fight is worth it in the end

renegademaster

Lou.m wrote: »

Vitali Klitschko?

I think people say he can stand up to Putin.

I don't know much of him though. I think he has German Ties I mean he is known in Germany as a boxer. But I mean his brother is Wladimir Klitschko...he is dating Hayden Panittierre !!

Vitali Klitschko has been accused of working as a debt collector in the 1990s for mafia boss Viktor Rybalko.
They too seem a bit too removed and part of a glamorous corrupt oligarchy to me.


He has been urging protestors to fight against armed forces which seems crazy.




I don't know if he is someone wise to have around in such a climate.

the americans have a handy number on the cards for him when this all dies down for hlepign them push their agenda over there

Lou.m

In Kiev, all hospitals are overcrowded; there are now more than a thousand wounded. This was on Channel 5 said the doctor, social activist Bohomolets .

#Euromaidan

"About a hundred in each hospital, thousands already," she said. According to her, those without severe injuries are being released due to lack of available hospital beds. Hospitals cannot cope with the influx, reports TSN. This morning's injuries were associated with burns and grenades, but now we are talking about amputations, ejected eyes, damaged limbs. On Tuesday, 18 February in the government quarter of Kiev, violent clashes arose between anti-government protests and police units. According to the Ministry of Health, more than 200 were injured in the clashes, more than 100 hospitalized, and at least 11 killed. According to Maidan doctors, about 1,000 people have hospitalized. On the evening of 18 February, security forces began to sweep Independence Square, which attracted about 20,000 Maidan participants Clashes continue .

Source http://news.liga.net/

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Lou.m

Phoenix wrote: »

At least 18 killed and more than 200 seriously injured in clashes in Ukrainian capital....
Also violence has spread to western Ukraine,in the city of Lviv

Lord this can't continue.

Lou.m

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116655/kiev-ukraine-protests-are-vladimir-putins-worst-nightmare

The last time that this many people came out to the Independence Square (the Maidan) in Kiev, nine years ago, protesters undid the election of Victor Yanukovich and brought to power a Western-friendly government. In the process, they scared the living daylights out of Putin.

renegademaster

Lou.m wrote: »

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116655/kiev-ukraine-protests-are-vladimir-putins-worst-nightmare

watching world politics has really become like a ****ing soap opera or a bad trip, same mad **** happening over and over again, those who're screwing us all live in the lap of luxury while we kill ourselves for them to make profits out of us again when things quieten down again!!

it's gone beyond a joke now imho

Harold Weiss

enfant terrible wrote:

They can decide their own destiny, even if Putin disagrees.

See the irony of your statement here when US are deciding who should govern the Ukraine?

Is it not obvious?

Lou.m

Mychailo Wynnyckyj an academic in Cambridge originally from the Ukraine has stated this.

Feeling very sad and incredibly angry. My city burns tonight. The capital of the country that I love (my adopted home and the land of my ancestors), today lost any sense of innocence that may have been left here. Tonight the center of Kyiv has become a war zone.

This place of peace, of multiple languages and religions, of intellectual vibrancy, of tolerance and mutual understanding, today is drenched in the blood of protesters whose only demand was to be led by a just and non-corrupt government.

As I write these words, the church tent on the Maidan where I have prayed for peace countless times during the past 2 months, burns - set on fire by riot police. Don't look for logic behind such an act - there is no logic that can explain the work of thugs taking orders from an uber-thug desperately holding on to power.

So far we know of 10 confirmed deaths today (in addition to the 5 who died in January's clashes on Hrushevskoho St) and hundreds injured. Tonight we cry. We mourn those who innocently believed freedom could be won peacefully.

Tomorrow we'll regroup. There will be no more false beliefs. There will be no more negotiations. There is nothing to talk about. Tomorrow we'll take back our city and the day after we'll take back our country. There is no way that a few thousand riot police can hold back millions. God help them if they try...

To all my friends throughout the world: I ask for your prayers for those who lost their lives today, and for those whose lives will be lost in the coming days. Pray for those who are sped away in ambulances outside our windows. May their wounds heal quickly. Pray for the heroes who are desperately trying to stop the inevitable advance on Maidan tonight. They face thugs in police uniforms, armed with live rounds. Many will not return home tomorrow.

My world turned black and white today - there is no grey. Academic impartiality be damned. Evil must be stopped.

God help us!

Karl Stein

Jonny7 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53509419

Me making your argument

It's an observation not an argument and it's not 'mine'. I'm not interested in some argument you had years ago and have no idea why you think I should be.

There's criticism and then there's irrational bias.. it's firmly in the latter category

You specifically said

rabidly anti-US

To which I've responded:

Again this is a quasi-fascist tactic used to try to shut down dissent. Anyone critical of US foreign policy 'Hates America'. Now maybe you cannot make the distinction between 'rabidly anti-US' and being critical of US foreign policy

You can address it or you can ignore it and revert to 'but biased' 'but rabidly anti-US'. I suspect you'll choose the latter.

You're gonna love Chomsky - try "manufacturing consent".. actually on second thought, no don't

Here you ignore my request for you to provide evidence of a 'Chomsky-esque agenda'. I'd like to know more about this conspiracy. What are its aims, goals and motivations? Who are its adherents?

I just find it astonishing how some feel the need to invent a narrative for it on top of that

What narrative? Be specific.

Government playing hardball. Saying only solution is for the protesters to go home.

Lou.m

Deleted User wrote: »

Government playing hardball. Saying only solution is for the protesters to go home.

Viktor Yanukovych says the people must leave the Euromaiden ...that is not going to happen.

Lou.m

Despite so far unmet demands to renew Ukraine-EU integration, the Euromaidan has been repeatedly characterized as an event of major political symbolism for the European Union itself, particularly as "the largest ever pro-European rally in history"

Wow ...I never thought of that

Lou.m

Authors of the GfK Ukraine poll conducted 2–15 October 2013 claim that 45% of respondents believed Ukraine should sign an Association Agreement with the EU, whereas only 14% favored joining the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia, and 15% preferred non-alignment. Full text of the EU-related question asked by GfK reads, "Should Ukraine sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, and, in the future, become an EU member?

Another poll conducted in November by IFAK Ukraine for DW-Trend showed 58% of Ukrainians supporting the country's entry into the European Union.

On the other hand a November 2013 poll by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology showed 39% supporting the country's entry into the European Union and 37% supporting Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia.

Whatever side is the majority it is a pretty narrow margin.

eoin91

0108 GMT: Ukrainian news site hvylya.org reports, citing “sources in the presidential administration”, that President Putin has refused to speak to Yanukovych over the phone tonight:
Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych has tried ringing Vladimir Putin several times. However he refused to speak to the head of state, claiming that he was busy.

From the below website, they are doing frequent updates with what is happening along with pictures.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-intense-violence-in-kiev/

Lou.m

http://projectmaidan.com/post/77082994260/statistics-civil-sector-of-maidan-releases-statement

Statistics: Civil Sector of Maidan Releases Statement

As of 6pm:

6 people are confirmed dead by the Maidan medical service, around 10 more deathly wounded;
2 people (older man and woman) found dead near the Khreschatyk metro station (on Institutska street);
1 person killed near the National Bank building;
BBC reports that the headless body of one more victim was found near the Parliament building;
14 journalists beaten today;
More than 500 people heavily wounded by grenades, rubber and live bullets.
Kyiv has shut down: all metro stations are closed, central roads blocked, road out of Kyiv blocked;
A state of emergency has been enacted as of 6pm. Everyone who is at the Maidan is the now considered an extremist, according to an official statement of the Internal Ministry;
Maidan crackdown has begun. The police are dismantling barricades at the European square, Ukrainian house and Zhovtvenyi Palace around Maidan are already seized by the government.
Soldiers are using grenades, throwing Molotov cocktails to set the Maidan tents on fire. BBC journalists report that internal troops are armed with AK-47 rifles. Many soldiers are using unnecessary brutal force against people in the streets;
A lot of injured people are in hospitals. Kyiv city hospital No. 17 is caring for more than 70 wounded people, with police presence around the hospital;
"Titushky" (state-sponsored thugs) on Hrushevskogo street have started looting houses and mugging bystanders.
We ask Embassies, European Parliament, PACE, OECD, UN and Government of every DEMOCRATIC country for URGENT REACTION:

They are asking for EU sanctions.