Ukraine: As it happens.

enfant terrible

Lou.m wrote: »

Some support him and there is little chance of him doing that anyway.

I am not saying the position of peace is wrong it is just unlikely ...we would all prefer it it is just naive.


I think the issue is should your human rights suffer because you pick one side that is against the govt?

What are you predicting a massive civil war?

Lets hope your wrong.

Lou.m

Ukraine crisis: "Apocalyptic" night-time clashes in Kiev BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26249330

Police are storming the main protest camp in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, which has been occupied since November.

Explosions are taking place, fireworks are being thrown and large fires have broken out in Independence Square, known locally as the Maidan.

The US is appalled at Kiev violence.

Ukraine clashes: US 'appalled' at Kiev violence

6 hours ago

The US is ''appalled'' by the violence in Kiev in Ukraine, and urges Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich to restart a dialogue with opposition leaders, White House spokesman Jay Carney has told a news briefing.

"We continue to condemn street violence and excessive use of force by either side. Force will not resolve the crisis," he said.

Ukrainian police are storming the main anti-government protest camp in Kiev after months of occupation.

Video http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26249572

Lou.m

enfant terrible wrote: »

What are you predicting a massive civil war?

Lets hope your wrong.

From the BBC

Ukraine crisis: "Apocalyptic" night-time clashes in Kiev BBC

enfant terrible

Lou.m wrote: »

From the BBC

Hopefully he's forced to step down somehow and bring peace there.

Putin can put a new puppet in later.

J_E

@EuromaidanPR: BREAKING NEWS. The riot police #Berkut using underground communications gets to the subway which is located directly under the #Euromaidan

Wonder what's going to happen next...attack from below to try shut down the riots tonight?

Lou.m

Vesti (Ukrainian newspaper) journalist V. Veremei shot dead in the stomach.

What is more concerning or not depending on your point of view.

In a few Western regions of Ukraine, the people have already overthrown their state governments if they were loyal to Yanokovych.

Also there is a report that 26 members of the parliament have left Ukraine in a private jet.

shedweller

Lou.m wrote: »

The US is appalled at Kiev violence.


Video http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26249572

But at the same time the US have pumped a lot of money into destabilising the Ukranian government for their own gains.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm
That was a good move there, whoever came up with it. The timing is perfect with us all following the winter olympics and journalists over there covering it will probably be told they'll lose their jobs if they leave the olympics.
And there seems to be a slick pr campaign to have us rooting for the people of Ukraine.
And who wouldnt! I'm rooting for them myself!
But there's an agenda here and a bloody big one at that.

Frank Lee Midere

Harold Weiss wrote: »

Former CIA officer Philip Giraldi on pro-Israel State Dept. official caught orchestrating regime change in Ukraine.

Diplomacy Is a Four Letter Word



Yep, US nothing to do with unrest there at all.

So what if they were helping the opposition. That's up to them. Russia is paying for the crackdown.

Lou.m

shedweller wrote: »

But at the same time the US have pumped a lot of money into destabilising the Ukranian government for their own gains.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm
That was a good move there, whoever came up with it. The timing is perfect with us all following the winter olympics and journalists over there covering it will probably be told they'll lose their jobs if they leave the olympics.
And there seems to be a slick pr campaign to have us rooting for the people of Ukraine.
And who wouldnt! I'm rooting for them myself!
But there's an agenda here and a bloody big one at that.

There is always an agenda.

Frank Lee Midere

Harold Weiss wrote: »

See the irony of your statement here when US are deciding who should govern the Ukraine?

Is it not obvious?

The attempts by pro Russians to denigrate the UKrainian opposition is sickening. Give it over. The US isn't interested in instability in the region and it isn't the Cold War. Somebody should tell the anti-American left that Russia is now fascist.

KyussBishop

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The attempts by pro Russians to denigrate the UKrainian opposition is sickening. Give it over. The US isn't interested in instability in the region and it isn't the Cold War. Somebody should tell the anti-American left that Russia is now fascist.

I don't yet have an opinion on the crisis in Ukraine, but will step in here:
Accusing people of 'Anti-Americanism' is bullshít.

People are anti-US-government, and who the fúck wouldn't be these days, since we now have proof that they are spying on literally the entire planets Internet communications - if criticizing the US is so Anti-American, then what the fúck is spying on the entire world? By the same idiotic standard it'd make the US, Anti-Irish, Anti-UK, Anti-French etc. - and that's actually more rational, since the US directly are harming the actual populations of these nationalities home countries, by spying on them.

So quit the 'Anti-American' bullshít -it's totally meaningless now, even as a form of rhetorical argument - if anything, using equally nonsensical standards of argument, the US government is Anti-TheRestOfTheWorld.

ArnieSilvia

From Eastern European perspective, I read some comments on Polish forums (ignoring official media) and generally it's acknowledged that there's people protesting who just want EU and are frustrated with what's going on. Would be better if they actually knew that their country after joining EU will be, bought by foreign capital making big $$ in the process. Let's face it - it's a big market and EU folks were "disappointed" that they won't be able to exploit it if Ukraina went Russian way.
Now US, they want more power in the region and Russia understandably protest.

As much as I hate what Russians and Germans did during wars I have to admit that their's current foreign affairs dept (Lavrow) is doing great job.

But there is a strong far right wing there at these protests calling Bandera their hero. That man is responsible for leading armed groups who did mass killings of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people in deeply disturbing manner. They were simply having best joy during these killings. Guess what we are facing now if these far right people take over.

My grandparents had to flee Ukraine because of extermination of Poles, Jewish, Slovaks and Russians on that land (was part of Poland back then), burning entire villages, children, women, cutting pregnant women open, tortures on mass scale - i.e. "attaching" children to table top with a knife put through their tongue, letting them die slowly, throwing newborns on doors or fence. Unexplainable cruelty on a mass scale.

There's voices that ok, Janukowycz broke promises he did when being chosen but it was democratically chosen government after all.
There's time for revolution when you're ruled by autocratic govt, but if it's a democratic govt, it's a different story. Time for change it is at elections.

Supporting that far wing is just stupid, end of.

Lou.m

It seems that there is no uniting identity in the Ukraine.

Einhard

I stopped reading these types of threads on boards because no matter what the conflict, no matter who the main actors, and who the perpetrators, there will always, always be a significant number of posters who will pile in with their anti-American biases, and firmly blame America for what's going on. It's just so bloody banal and inane at this stage, and yet nevertheless somewhat perverse that some peoples' response to any tragedy is to use it as an excuse to have a go at America.

The Aussie

Einhard wrote: »

I stopped reading these types of threads on boards because no matter what the conflict.

always be a significant number of posters who will pile in with their anti-American biases, and firmly blame America for what's going on.

I read these Threads to laugh at the odd ball connections Loons* make to justify their paranoia, "Merica" the cause of, and root of all evil..... :rolleyes:




* LOL. :pac:......

SEPT 23 1989

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

From Eastern European perspective, I read some comments on Polish forums (ignoring official media) and generally it's acknowledged that there's people protesting who just want EU and are frustrated with what's going on. Would be better if they actually knew that their country after joining EU will be, bought by foreign capital making big $$ in the process. Let's face it - it's a big market and EU folks were "disappointed" that they won't be able to exploit it if Ukraina went Russian way.
Now US, they want more power in the region and Russia understandably protest.

As much as I hate what Russians and Germans did during wars I have to admit that their's current foreign affairs dept (Lavrow) is doing great job.

But there is a strong far right wing there at these protests calling Bandera their hero. That man is responsible for leading armed groups who did mass killings of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people in deeply disturbing manner. They were simply having best joy during these killings. Guess what we are facing now if these far right people take over.

My grandparents had to flee Ukraine because of extermination of Poles, Jewish, Slovaks and Russians on that land (was part of Poland back then), burning entire villages, children, women, cutting pregnant women open, tortures on mass scale - i.e. "attaching" children to table top with a knife put through their tongue, letting them die slowly, throwing newborns on doors or fence. Unexplainable cruelty on a mass scale.

There's voices that ok, Janukowycz broke promises he did when being chosen but it was democratically chosen government after all.
There's time for revolution when you're ruled by autocratic govt, but if it's a democratic govt, it's a different story. Time for change it is at elections.

Supporting that far wing is just stupid, end of.

people here need to read this

Count Dooku

Lou.m wrote: »

Is this now a revolution or a protest?

Looks like civil war more and more

Eight Ball

Count Dooku wrote: »

Looks like civil war more and more

The smell of revolution is a wonderful thing.

The Aussie

Eight Ball wrote: »

The smell of revolution is a wonderful thing.

From the saftey of an Armchair, yes.

Not to sure I would like to be on the ground there to be honest.

oak5548

I still dont think many people realize the extent of how serious this is, seeing as most media outlets are hardly reporting it as any more than just run of the mill riots.

Also, I love seeing the "police" get the absolute shít beat out of them in that video. Because the ukranian riot police, berkut, titushki and various other government thugs are nothing but murdering scumbags.
The current ukrainian government are absolute filth, and I hope they get whats coming to them.

jimeryan22

As gerald celente says, "yeah great, become part of the E.U so they be can be just like us (Ireland) Portugal, Spain, Italy, Broke, and unelected people making our laws"

Stavros Murphy

Have to say, I'd be on the side of the protesters, I usually am, pretty much regardless, as protesting takes effort, and for people to go to the effort, somthing usually has to be fairly fcuked up in the first place. Most people would rather be having a beer. I exclude Swampy-the-tree-gowl and his ilk from that sweeping statement of support, but in general, Governments have the "being right cnuts that need stones thrown at them" side of things pretty much sewn-up.

Eight Ball

The Aussie wrote: »

From the saftey of an Armchair, yes.

Not to sure I would like to be on the ground there to be honest.

Nobody would but those people are standing up and putting their neck on the line for a cause they believe in and that in itself is to be respected.

The Aussie

Eight Ball wrote: »

Nobody would but those people are standing up and putting their neck on the line for a cause they believe in and that in itself is to be respected.

Did not say anything about not respecting their stance, I'm not sure I would be describing the smell of revolution (Death and Maiming) as wonderful, other than the safety of an Armchair.

Eight Ball

The Aussie wrote: »

Did not say anything about not respecting their stance, I'm not sure I would be describing the smell of revolution (Death and Maiming) as wonderful, other than the safety of an Armchair.

Yeah you already said that I get it that you don't think it's wonderful now.

The Aussie

Eight Ball wrote: »

Yeah you already said that I get it that you don't think it's wonderful now.

Just answering your question, for some reason you needed it spelt out for you, I can do up pictures there if you need them there champ

bear1

I wonder if these riots/war could spill out into Belarus which is more often then not in a far worse position than Ukraine?
Seeing those youtube videos of people laying on the ground is terrible, can't believe there is a thread wondering why we don't do the same thing in Ireland. Madness

KyussBishop

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

From Eastern European perspective, I read some comments on Polish forums (ignoring official media) and generally it's acknowledged that there's people protesting who just want EU and are frustrated with what's going on. Would be better if they actually knew that their country after joining EU will be, bought by foreign capital making big $$ in the process. Let's face it - it's a big market and EU folks were "disappointed" that they won't be able to exploit it if Ukraina went Russian way.
Now US, they want more power in the region and Russia understandably protest.

As much as I hate what Russians and Germans did during wars I have to admit that their's current foreign affairs dept (Lavrow) is doing great job.

But there is a strong far right wing there at these protests calling Bandera their hero. That man is responsible for leading armed groups who did mass killings of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people in deeply disturbing manner. They were simply having best joy during these killings. Guess what we are facing now if these far right people take over.

My grandparents had to flee Ukraine because of extermination of Poles, Jewish, Slovaks and Russians on that land (was part of Poland back then), burning entire villages, children, women, cutting pregnant women open, tortures on mass scale - i.e. "attaching" children to table top with a knife put through their tongue, letting them die slowly, throwing newborns on doors or fence. Unexplainable cruelty on a mass scale.

There's voices that ok, Janukowycz broke promises he did when being chosen but it was democratically chosen government after all.
There's time for revolution when you're ruled by autocratic govt, but if it's a democratic govt, it's a different story. Time for change it is at elections.

Supporting that far wing is just stupid, end of.

How influential is that far-right element and who is supporting them (if anyone), do you know?

Jonny7

oak5548 wrote: »

I still dont think many people realize the extent of how serious this is, seeing as most media outlets are hardly reporting it as any more than just run of the mill riots.

Also, I love seeing the "police" get the absolute shít beat out of them in that video. Because the ukranian riot police, berkut, titushki and various other government thugs are nothing but murdering scumbags.
The current ukrainian government are absolute filth, and I hope they get whats coming to them.

There is a serious savage element to the Ukrainian security services - in fact many cite it as one cause for the protests last year

However, unfortunately, decent police officers, e.g. traffic cops are getting caught up in the violence

There are violent elements to both sides - however watching the police beat protesters in handcuffs and seeing evidence of the horrific torture detainees has received in custody means that the security services are going beyond their remit and as such can be held more accountable

Which means the presidency and leadership of the country is directly accountable

I see sanctions passing because of this

Jonny7

Oh, and as usual the "excuse" has come out - that they are dealing with a terrorist organisation

Which was the same excuse given in virtually every N African and Arab uprising, including Erdogan in Turkey

The protesters are "terrorists" and this is used to justify the extreme violence