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Ukraine: As it happens.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,314 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    As gerald celente says, "yeah great, become part of the E.U so they be can be just like us (Ireland) Portugal, Spain, Italy, Broke, and unelected people making our laws"
    Instead, become part or Russia. A state whose people prefer to keep their money in Cyprus, a state that although it's been bailed out, your money is safer than than Russia. A state that has a habit of taking over companies and calling them state assets before jailing the owner (Mikhail Borisovich Khodorkovsky) of the company...

    =-=

    I'm not surprised that they Security Forces are shooting back; you toss fire at anyone, and you have to expect a reaction.

    I'm unsure if this will go full civil war, as so far, the unrest seems to be centralised. I wonder if the Security Forces or anti-government protestors will up it's ante? Hopefully not, as otherwise it'll be a race to the bottom :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    the_syco wrote: »
    Instead, become part or Russia. A state whose people prefer to keep their money in Cyprus, a state that although it's been bailed out, your money is safer than than Russia. A state that has a habit of taking over companies and calling them state assets before jailing the owner (Mikhail Borisovich Khodorkovsky) of the company...

    =-=

    I'm not surprised that they Security Forces are shooting back; you toss fire at anyone, and you have to expect a reaction.

    I'm unsure if this will go full civil war, as so far, the unrest seems to be centralised. I wonder if the Security Forces or anti-government protestors will up it's ante? Hopefully not, as otherwise it'll be a race to the bottom :(

    Lastest reports say the protests/violence has started in the western part of Ukraine also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    bear1 wrote: »
    Correct, but they aren't far off from it.
    Lviv has always been a particular city, being once a Polish city and it has many Polish ties so it has always been a more "western" type of city.
    I believe Crimea is also a slightly autonomous region but I would guess they would be more torwards Russia than the EU.

    Out of interest, what are the Varsovians saying about all this (other than it's terrible, of course)? I see Donald Tusk has tweeted that he's on his way to Kiev - are the Poles keen to get involved, unilaterally if necessary?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Out of interest, what are the Varsovians saying about all this (other than it's terrible, of course)? I see Donald Tusk has tweeted that he's on his way to Kiev - are the Poles keen to get involved, unilaterally if necessary?

    Tusk is usually seen in a bad way here, a bit like us with Brian Cowen I suppose.
    The ones I've talked to are supporting the protesters but are worried about it getting closer to their border.
    I seriously doubt the Poles would want to get involved, the money just isn't there even if they wanted to and they also have issues with gas from Russia so I doubt they will want to annoy Russia who can just up the ante and increase gas prices.
    It's all a huge mess


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0219/505236-ukraine-kiev/

    Gets better and better.. I'd say this is their way of saying the military is coming in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    bear1 wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0219/505236-ukraine-kiev/

    Gets better and better.. I'd say this is their way of saying the military is coming in.

    Under new management - they've just fired the head of the armed forces, according to the BBC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    General of armed forces sacked and replaced - very ominous

    Russian TV referring to the protesters as "terrorists" now


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    This post has been deleted.

    No reports of border closures, afaik, and no reports of mass fleeing either.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    General of armed forces sacked and replaced - very ominous

    Russian TV referring to the protesters as "terrorists" now

    And so a rebel leader is made, perhaps.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    This post has been deleted.

    The line that protesters killed 9 policemen?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    catallus wrote: »
    The line that protesters killed 9 policemen?

    Some elements of the opposition are violent

    Under no circumstances does this give the security forces an excuse to beat people while in handcuffs, torture them in prison and carry out extra-judicial killings

    One of the main reasons for the protests is the corruption and brutality endemic within the security and police forces in Ukraine


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    catallus wrote: »
    The line that protesters killed 9 policemen?

    Probably defending themselves against police violence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    This post has been deleted.

    Update from BBC at 19.18 - In a further sign that the crisis is deepening, Ukrainian lorry drivers blockade the main road to the border with Poland.

    Seems like a strange thing to do - but there we go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Some elements of the opposition are violent

    Under no circumstances does this give the security forces an excuse to beat people while in handcuffs, torture them in prison and carry out extra-judicial killings

    One of the main reasons for the protests is the corruption and brutality endemic within the security and police forces in Ukraine

    If that were truly the case then our own country would be in ashes.:rolleyes:

    The real reason is financial and organisational aid being proffered to those who would undermine a democratic state by the EUSKN.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    catallus wrote: »
    If that were truly the case then our own country would be in ashes.:rolleyes:

    We don't have a police brutality problem here


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  • Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭ArnieSilvia


    How influential is that far-right element and who is supporting them (if anyone), do you know?

    Influential enough, they quickly pulled back and hid Bandera's flags when Western media found out what they mean. That 19% or so Russians living there might face hard time if those nationalists turn riots against other nations living in Ukraina (but that would mean Russian intervention I suppose).

    Currently, pathetic EU leaders want to impose sanctions but really, how would that make any pressure, I don't know.

    Polish PM handed over dealing with Ukraina to President who is in contact with Janukowycz. Also, they want to deal with Ukraina from all EU approach rather than Polish only. I presume to avoid any trouble later, rightly so IMO as lots of Ukrainians hate Polish and vice versa.

    They say that worst that could happen would be division of the country and mess it would create (see Jugoslavia etc).

    Polish PM said today that Janukowycz credibility is near zero, i.e. he doesn't fulfil agreements. However, Janukowycz is meeting today with opposition so things might move on.

    I have to say that I don't get people calling democratically elected government "regime". You think things were any different there before? Different country, different culture, different way of dealing with people throwing petrol bombs onto police forces. I'd love to see how Germans or Americans would deal with such events.

    Also, Ukrainians have specific mentality, they can be good neighbours, nice people and all, but if they get upset, angry or otherwise triggered, they turn around and show their aggressive, violent other face.

    Polish want to build good relationships and since 2009, created and lead "Partnerstwo Wschodnie" (Eastern Partnership) initiative under EU with aim to improve trading, visa processes and general integration.


  • Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭ArnieSilvia


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    We don't have a police brutality problem here

    Oh really, Ireland is 100% cool you think. I saw armless and defensive (not agressive) students sitting on the pavement being beaten with batons by gards, was not long ago when there was protests in relation to student's grants.

    As I said, easy to criticise govt, but what would you do in such situation, where people who "protest" are ignorant, agressive punks who don't want to talk


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    We don't have a police brutality problem here

    I'd say they don't have one in Ukraine either, but anyone who pays any attention to the media knows that it is easy to throw shít and it is really easy to throw it at front line workers.

    The line that the protesters are righteous warriors fighting police brutality is one of the first salvos fired by any sort of revolutionary worth his salt; sure we should be well versed in it from our own indigenous troubles.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 431 ✭✭6781


    RT is trotting out the party line from Moscow.
    What's new? It's like Russia's version of Fox News. Propaganda machine.
    moxin wrote: »
    Probably defending themselves against police violence.
    Maybe in some cases. But I saw two videos of cops getting killed. One was when they were in retreat from the protesters another was they were standing in formation when he was shot from a distance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Some rough scenes today:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a51_1392842183
    Caution. Dead people. Blood and severe injuries.


  • Posts: 8,647 [Deleted User]


    shedweller wrote: »
    Some rough scenes today:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a51_1392842183
    Caution. Dead people. Blood and severe injuries.

    ****in' hell!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭Stavros Murphy


    Rough stuff. Probably going to get a fair bit rougher too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MonaPizza


    This post has been deleted.

    Of course they haven't.
    The US has started this Ukrainian fcuk up. Do you think they are going to help any refugees? Are they fcuk!
    How many Iraqi translators have been left to be torn to pieces after the US dashed under cover of darkness?
    A million Iraqi refugees living across the border in camps in Syria....and guess what.....a new attack to now wreck Syria.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Oh really, Ireland is 100% cool you think. I saw armless and defensive (not agressive) students sitting on the pavement being beaten with batons by gards, was not long ago when there was protests in relation to student's grants.

    As I said, easy to criticise govt, but what would you do in such situation, where people who "protest" are ignorant, agressive punks who don't want to talk

    Never said that, but if you want to take things out of context... My friend was beaten by the cops, other friends have had run-ins

    Anecdotes are one thing - we don't have a police brutality problem not even close


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    MonaPizza wrote: »
    Of course they haven't.
    The US has started this Ukrainian fcuk up. Do you think they are going to help any refugees? Are they fcuk!
    How many Iraqi translators have been left to be torn to pieces after the US dashed under cover of darkness?
    A million Iraqi refugees living across the border in camps in Syria....and guess what.....a new attack to now wreck Syria.

    Iraq is like a Shangri La. Only 592 people were killed due to violence so far this month.

    Most of the Ukranian refugees from any destabilization of the country will end up in European nations.

    There needs to be a 3 way compromise between EU, US and Russia on who gets to own Ukraine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MonaPizza


    Iraq is like a Shangri La. Only 592 people were killed due to violence so far this month.

    Most of the Ukranian refugees from any destabilization of the country will end up in European nations.

    There needs to be a 3 way compromise between EU, US and Russia on who gets to own Ukraine.

    Really? :pac:

    And with the Americans saying "FUCK THE EU!" [charming] ..good luck with that.

    Ask yourself a very simple question.....who are destabilising The Ukraine? Who, and why now?
    I'd love to think that NATO's machinations are altruistic but give me one reason why I should believe this.
    Who are destabilising Syria? How come the US are arming Al-Qaeda in Syria? Al-Qaeda????? I thought Al-Qaeda were the "bad guys"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MonaPizza


    Is Lviv the only Oblast(region) in western Ukraine that would be fully pro European?.Would it make more sense for the Governors of all the western Ukrainian Oblasts to unite to create West Ukraine?.

    The sooner Putin's tanks move in and take flamethrowers to the upstarts the better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MonaPizza


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    General of armed forces sacked and replaced - very ominous

    Russian TV referring to the protesters as "terrorists" now

    What....like Occupy kids? tsk! tsk! How dare foreigners call anti-government forces "terrorists" yet back here in the West if an 80 year old nun protests at a missile silo she gets banged up for the rest of her miserable days.

    Aren't anyone who has the audacity to protest in America dubbed a "domestic terrorist" now?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭GAAman


    Daisy 55 wrote: »
    I simply remarked that it was a lovely country to visit. Where was the joke? Unfolding disaster can be clearly seen by all. No call for that comment.

    O Rly?
    Daisy 55 wrote: »
    It was lovely! We only went to Kiev and Lviv though. That took two night trains! Would love to see a bit more...Odessa maybe. Will have to wait for a while now. Very sad to see.

    Terribly sorry people getting shot has put a damper on your plans, selfish bas*ards using their bodies to stop bullets....

    Also if you had bothered to read my post I said AND those who are joking making them two separate categories.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    There needs to be a 3 way compromise between EU, US and Russia on who gets to own Ukraine.

    What's needed is a three way compromise between the Ukraine, Russia and the EU imo.

    If the EU/Europe wants to assert itself then it needs to have a common foreign policy that's backed with some hardware so it can tell the US to fuck off from other people's back gardens.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MonaPizza


    porsche959 wrote: »
    I don't know much about this issue. I have read a lot of the protestors are involved with groups with far right sympathies...is this true?

    Very simple. Just find yourself a map of the world. That's step one.

    Step 2 is to take a pencil and dot all the countries closest to the Caspian Sea.

    Step 3, take a red pen and put a big X on the countries that don't have US or NATO troops on their soil.

    Step 4. Listen to how those countries (red X) are undemocratic/terrorist/unfree/whatever

    Step 5. Watch the people of those red X countries somehow revolt in favour of US/NATO troops on their soil.

    QED.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    GAAman wrote: »
    O Rly?

    Terribly sorry people getting shot has put a damper on your plans, selfish bas*ards using their bodies to stop bullets....

    Also if you had bothered to read my post I said AND those who are joking making them two separate categories.
    I don't think Daisy meant anything malicious by their post, you're overreacting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MonaPizza


    ****BREAKING NEWS ****

    There are unconfirmed reports that the Ukrainian authorities have used chemical weapons on peaceful demonstrators. Unconfirmed reports prove that Ukrainian authorities hate us for our freedoms.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    MonaPizza wrote: »
    ****BREAKING NEWS ****

    There are unconfirmed reports that the Ukrainian authorities have used chemical weapons on peaceful demonstrators. Unconfirmed reports prove that Ukrainian authorities hate us for our freedoms.
    Is there a source for this? They've already fired live rounds before.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    These protests have a lot to do with EU dependence on Gas from Russia.

    Gazprom in Russia provides 25% of gas to EU with 80% traveling through the Ukraine territory so it makes sense the EU and US would prefer a pro-western government in power that would act favorably on their behalf in any dispute over gas prices. Well, from US point of view, they probably want to 'balkanize' Russia into smaller states for investment opportunities like during the 90s post USSR.

    The Syria conflict is seemingly over the same issue. Who in the region should provide EU with gas? The Iranians through Syria to Mediterranean? The Qataris through Syria-Turkey? The Israelis from the Mediterranean?

    I'm under no illusion the US state department officials care about the welfare of the average Ukranian individual but the bigger picture here is, how does EU acquire cheap energy for it's citizens? Where is it going to come from?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MonaPizza


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    Is there a source for this? They've already fired live rounds before.

    Unconfirmed reports are coming in that Ukrainian authorities are issuing viagra to troops to rape people.

    Back to you in the studio, Skip.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    MonaPizza wrote: »
    Unconfirmed reports are coming in that Ukrainian authorities are issuing viagra to troops to rape people.

    Back to you in the studio, Skip.

    Incidentally, since you mention the story about Libyan troops issued Viagra for the purpose of raping Libyans. Gazprom offered to buy all the gas and oil exports from Libya around 2008 before the Arab spring which would have been disastrous for EU also.

    Lucky for Libyans, NATO bombed them and helped Al Qaeda impale Gaddafi on a bayonet. Libya is of course a fully fledged democracy after ousting Gaddafi 3 years ago with daily fighting among militias there. Another Shangri La


  • Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MonaPizza wrote: »
    Unconfirmed reports are coming in that Ukrainian authorities are issuing viagra to troops to rape people.

    Back to you in the studio, Skip.

    Permabanned for trolling


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    The amount of idiocy in this thread about this situation is remarkable.
    First off, the EU is useless when it comes to these types of situations. I listened to Barroso yesterday who is just a muppet, can't stand him.
    They are going to have a huge meeting today to discuss Ukraine, wow!! that will stop the violence. They also mentioned imposing sanctions.
    What da fook for??
    They have no money as it is so the best cause of action is to kick the innocent while they are down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭force eleven


    Nasty police have guns and are shooting protestors. Nasty protestors have guns and are shooting police. Who is right and who is wrong?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭danniemcq


    Nasty police have guns and are shooting protestors. Nasty protestors have guns and are shooting police. Who is right and who is wrong?

    personally I think the quote by Thomas Jefferson sums it up nicely
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

    I realise that often its not as simple as this, nothing like this is ever black and white but looking at the timeline, the players involved and the stages its gone through i side with the protestors on this one.

    The tactics that the police have used on unarmed civilians that they are meant to protect has no doubt increased the number of armed protestors as they now feel they need them to protect themselves


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    personally I think the quote by Thomas Jefferson sums it up nicely



    I realise that often its not as simple as this, nothing like this is ever black and white but looking at the timeline, the players involved and the stages its gone through i side with the protestors on this one.

    The tactics that the police have used on unarmed civilians that they are meant to protect has no doubt increased the number of armed protestors as they now feel they need them to protect themselves

    +1
    Very nicely summed up there. It's long overdue, you could start to see the signs after the Orange uprising (i believe this is what it's called) of 2003.
    Lviv claiming a sort of independence is just he start of it.
    As bad as may sound, it is interesting to see history in the making.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    Another 21 dead so far today in Kiev, this is sliding towards civil war. If only governments realise when you shoot dead protesters, you lose the moral high ground no matter how much standing you have.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    the_syco wrote: »
    Instead, become part or Russia. A state whose people prefer to keep their money in Cyprus, a state that although it's been bailed out, your money is safer than than Russia. A state that has a habit of taking over companies and calling them state assets before jailing the owner (Mikhail Borisovich Khodorkovsky) of the company...

    =-=

    I'm not surprised that they Security Forces are shooting back; you toss fire at anyone, and you have to expect a reaction.

    I'm unsure if this will go full civil war, as so far, the unrest seems to be centralised. I wonder if the Security Forces or anti-government protestors will up it's ante? Hopefully not, as otherwise it'll be a race to the bottom :(

    Erm, if you haven't noticed, the EU has buggered the rest of Europe already..
    Like I said great to be part of that than your own sovereign country..... And with the EUs regs your losing your country anyway.. End to private property etc.. Agenda 21


  • Registered Users Posts: 604 ✭✭✭omega666


    It makes you wonder what the Ukraine Government can do?

    They send in the riot police to clear out protesters (as any country including Ireland would do) and regain back some Government buildings and the main square. Then what happens when the riot police get attacked with stones, and petrol bombs. Do they have a right to take tougher measures to regain control of their country?

    Or does the Government just give in to the protesters and quit? Bear in mind this is a democratic elected Government, not a tin pot dictatorship.
    What about the rest of the people in the country who support the Government and don’t want change? Is for a section of the country to violently overthrow a government because you don’t agree with its decisions or policy's an ok thing to do now?

    If Angry,armed protesters took over Government buildings in the US, Ireland or the UK what would their Governments do different.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Incidentally, since you mention the story about Libyan troops issued Viagra for the purpose of raping Libyans. Gazprom offered to buy all the gas and oil exports from Libya around 2008 before the Arab spring which would have been disastrous for EU also.

    Lucky for Libyans, NATO bombed them and helped Al Qaeda impale Gaddafi on a bayonet. Libya is of course a fully fledged democracy after ousting Gaddafi 3 years ago with daily fighting among militias there. Another Shangri La

    Libya now a democracy..? Hahahahahahaha. Are you for real..? Another Illegally launched war, and now the country is in ten times worse a state than it ever was under gaddafi,
    What news you readin


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