Ukraine: As it happens.

Jonny7

Turner wrote: »

No i didn't see footage of that... Any link?

This is what happened to the opposition leader
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/31/ukrainian-protester-kidnapped-tortured-kiev-bulatov

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sys2P-nixRg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKd7qAWOoZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McVtNOmkb2g

The police are extremely pumped up and attack anyone, including reporters, beating and kicking people on the ground - they are acting like animals

About 15 to 20 people have died already

Jonny7

Harold Weiss wrote: »

The US want to overthrow a democratically elected government and you support it. Nice to know you believe in the democratic process...US style.

shut up

Harold Weiss

Jonny7 wrote: »

shut up

Really? Is that your response?

bear1

I think we are witnessing the beginning of a civil war

Harold Weiss

bear1 wrote: »

I think we are witnessing the beginning of a civil war

No, what you're witnessing is the US government trying to overthrow a democratically elected government in the Ukraine.

bear1

Harold Weiss wrote: »

No, what you're witnessing is the US government trying to overthrow a democratically elected government in the Ukraine.

Don't be a muppet. The US has nothing to do with it.
Have you ever been to the Ukraine? I have and the differences between the people who live in the West and those that live in the East showed me exactly how split of a nation it is.

GAAman

The people who are joking on here and somewhat put out that this messes with future travel plans truly disgust me.

Cop yourselves on innocent people are getting hammered over there!

catallus

The stupid thing is that morons are going to come out of the usual woodwork and accuse the police of brutality when it is those people who are actually attacking the police!

Harold Weiss

bear1 wrote: »

Don't be a muppet. The US has nothing to do with it.
Have you ever been to the Ukraine? I have and the differences between the people who live in the West and those that live in the East showed me exactly how split of a nation it is.

You really should pay attention to facts instead of your emotions and what the mainstream news fool you with.

To help you understand what's going on over there, start with listening to the following conversation between American diplomats on who should govern the Ukraine.

Then come back to me and have an informed discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM

Speculation on your part doesn't help. The real world is a bit more complicated I'm afraid.

bear1

Seriously no thanks.
I believe you will not be capable of a good discusion as I can see the US is an enemy for you.
You never answered my question so I'm going to assume you've never been there.
So don't bother with your youtube videos, I've been there and I've talked to the people.
And believe me, I'm quite close to Ukraine so I know very well what I'm talking about

Jonny7

What is it with the nutbags and conspiracy theorists today? is it a full moon or something?

Karl Stein

It's definitely part of the game but there's a deeper multi-layered game being played out imo.

Lou.m wrote: »

I don't think the West cared or understood how important Russia and Ukrainian were to each other and how potentially damaging and poisonous either could choose to make that relationship to the other if they chose.

When you say 'the West' there what you mean is Washington and when you say Washington what is being talked about are those war-mongering chicken-hawk, neocon wasters like Jane Nuland and they care very much about how important Ukraine is to Russia.

What is more is that these neocon losers don't give a fuck about the Europe that doesn't kow-tow to Washington (**** the E.U.) i.e. what was called 'old Europe' by that other loser Donald Rumsfeld, the Europe that objected to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 (Germany, France and others).

So, Ukraine under the wing of NATO, with Washington's stooges in place, would serve two great strategic purposes, it wrenches Ukraine from the Russians and the keeps it from becoming an extension of 'old Europe' under the auspices of Germany/France and other European states that don't roll over when commanded by Washington's neocons.

bear1

Jonny7 wrote: »

What is it with the nutbags and conspiracy theorists today? is it a full moon or something?

I think the correct term is idiocy.

Jonny7

catallus wrote: »

The stupid thing is that morons are going to come out of the usual woodwork and accuse the police of brutality when it is those people who are actually attacking the police!

The security forces are being brutal

My previous post has links of the police beating protesters, kicking them in the head on the ground, beating protesters while they are in hand-cuffs, etc

There is violence on both sides, but the current animosity is in no way one sided

Harold Weiss

bear1 wrote: »

Seriously no thanks.
I believe you will not be capable of a good discusion as I can see the US is an enemy for you.
You never answered my question so I'm going to assume you've never been there.
So don't bother with your youtube videos, I've been there and I've talked to the people.
And believe me, I'm quite close to Ukraine so I know very well what I'm talking about

Well, the diplomats in the video discussing who should be running the Ukraine apologized already. And the US government responded to the phone call rather hilariously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE

You must not be following events on a geopolitical level because all you see happening in the Ukraine is the result of US interference whether you want to believe it or not, I don't really care. Facts are facts.

Cool_CM

Jonny7 wrote: »

The police are extremely pumped up and attack anyone, including reporters, beating and kicking people on the ground - they are acting like animals

About 15 to 20 people have died already

In fairness there's a lot more to this than protesters=good/police=bad.

bear1

Harold Weiss wrote: »

Well, the diplomats in the video discussing who should be running the Ukraine apologized already. And the US government responded to the phone call rather hilariously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE

You must not be following events on a geopolitical level because all you see happening in the Ukraine is the result of US interference whether you want to believe it or not, I don't really care. Facts are facts.

Just because you say it's fact doesn't make it so.
I don't believe it I'm glad you're willing to leave me be with my opinion.
Geopolitical level? US Interference?
You do realise why all this has started right?
Trade deal ring a bell?

Harold Weiss

Jonny7 wrote: »

What is it with the nutbags and conspiracy theorists today? is it a full moon or something?

But of course Jonny7, when presented with irrefutable evidence US are seeking to oust a democratically elected government, call the poster a "conspiracy theorist" -- Really weak.
Are all the people in this video conspiracy theorists?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE

That woman in the green works for US state department by the way, she must be conspiracy theorist too.

Daisy 55

GAAman wrote: »

The people who are joking on here and somewhat put out that this messes with future travel plans truly disgust me.

Cop yourselves on innocent people are getting hammered over there!

I simply remarked that it was a lovely country to visit. Where was the joke? Unfolding disaster can be clearly seen by all. No call for that comment.

Harold Weiss

bear1 wrote: »

Just because you say it's fact doesn't make it so.
I don't believe it I'm glad you're willing to leave me be with my opinion.
Geopolitical level? US Interference?
You do realise why all this has started right?
Trade deal ring a bell?

Right, so you're at least conceding that this isn't about human rights. At least we're getting somewhere . . .
I'm not wasting anymore time on this. Believe what you want.

bear1

Harold Weiss wrote: »

Right, so you're at least conceding that this isn't about human rights. At least we're getting somewhere . . .
I'm not wasting anymore time on this. Believe what you want.

Eh??
I have neither mentioned Human rights nor conceded anything.
I've also already said I will believe what I want, no need to repeat it

Karl Stein

bear1 wrote: »

The US has nothing to do with it.

Lol, honestly? You innocence theorists really are a joke of a bunch - far more duped and more dangerous than any conspiracy theorists.

The US and west has been spending millions on supporting the section of Ukrainian society that looks to the west/EU and that's just what we know about because they are unashamed about it.

Now imagine if the Germans and French were spending millions on supporting independence parties in Texas and California... how do you think Washington would react?

bear1

Right, the same could be then said about Russia could it not? Or is that the US's fault too?
This US bashing gets tiring after a while, can you not have a valid argument?

Jonny7

Charles Rocher wrote: »

When you say 'the West' there what you mean is Washington and when you say Washington what is being talked about are those war-mongering chicken-hawk, neocon wasters like Jane Nuland and they care very much about how important Ukraine is to Russia.

What is more is that these neocon losers don't give a fuck about the Europe that doesn't kow-tow to Washington (**** the E.U.) i.e. what was called 'old Europe' by that other loser Donald Rumsfeld, the Europe that objected to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 (Germany, France and others).

So, Ukraine under the wing of NATO, with Washington's stooges in place, would serve two great strategic purposes, it wrenches Ukraine from the Russians and the keeps it from becoming an extension of 'old Europe' under the auspices of Germany/France and other European states that don't roll over when commanded by Washington's neocons.

I can almost feel the spit coming out the screen

and I thought Galloway was the only one who could turn any political situation into an anti-Bush-Neocon-Iraq rant :pac:

Hell I used to do the same.. 10 years ago when it was actually relevant

Anyway, back to the real world, reports coming in that people are actually going towards the camp, despite metro and traffic being stopped, the more people/cops die - the more this is escalating

Karl Stein

Jonny7 wrote: »

I can almost feel the spit coming out the screen

I'm quite calm.

and I thought Galloway was the only one who could turn any political situation into an anti-Bush-Neocon-Iraq rant :pac:

Nuland is a neocon. She's married to one of the US's principle Neconservatives. Neocons were the bunch of losers you support(ed) that drove the Iraq disaster - it's dangerous when you have people like that in positions of power and very relevant to this discussion.

Now go back to your innocence theories and polish those Washington consensus cartoon spectacles you view the world through.

Cool_CM

Jonny7 wrote: »

Anyway, back to the real world, reports coming in that people are actually going towards the camp, despite metro and traffic being stopped, the more people/cops die - the more this is escalating

Live pictures on TV of the police trying to use water canons to put out the fires and move in.

Interesting Spiegel article on the situation regarding the right wing militant element to the protests for anybody who is interested:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ukraine-sliding-towards-civil-war-in-wake-of-tough-new-laws-a-945742.html

c_man

Right, who should I be shouting for?

Karl Stein

bear1 wrote: »

Right, the same could be then said about Russia could it not?

Absolutely it could but you specifically stated:

The US has nothing to do with it.

which is demonstrably wrong - I've linked you to the NED's 'soft power' activities in Ukraine.

This US bashing gets tiring after a while, can you not have a valid argument?

You're confusing the highlighting and/or criticism of US foreign policy in Europe with 'US bashing'.

Or is that the US's fault too?

Ignoring the innocence theorists who've probably read Tom Clancy novels like they were official US foreign policy documents, the US gave assurances to Moscow when the Soviet Union was breaking up that it would not expand NATO into former eastern bloc countries. It lied and has continued to expand eastwards towards Russia proper.

1999
Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Poland

2004
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania.

2009
Croatia and Albania

Ukraine was next on the list to join. Russia sees this as an existential threat to its long term security. So is US foreign policy to blame? Well it isn't doing much to placate the Russians that's for sure.

Corvo

Why does the OP have a red card?

bear1

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Absolutely it could but you specifically stated:



which is demonstrably wrong - I've linked you to the NED's 'soft power' activities in Ukraine.



You're confusing the highlighting and/or criticism of US foreign policy in Europe with 'US bashing'.

As I said before, this is in my opinion. I don't believe the US is trying to cause a revolution in Ukraine.. Again this is my opinion.
As I wrote before, I've been to Ukraine numerous times and I've spoken to people about their attitudes and it's quite clear that the western part of Ukraine prefers Europe and the East with Russia.
They only needed the final straw for this all to blow up.
The trade deal was that straw.
I have no problem with criticism of the US's foreign policy, there are things I disagree with as well and I was also against the Iraqi invasion. Made a balls of the whole thing.
Where I am at the moment, it's more of a question of how Europe is acting towards this. Most of the people aren't happy with Europe's response.
The US will obviously have an interest in EU affairs considering how much of their trade is with us, it would be the same if the roles were reversed.
So to sum up, I believe and so do others around me that Ukraine has been split due to one mans incompetence and a civil war is now looming. For me, this isn't the US's fault.