Should Schmidt drop BOD?

P.Walnuts

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Pretty sure I've heard McFadden is faster than Earls? He was quickest when Earls was in the squad anyway. Haven't heard since Zebo joined up with the squad though.

I'd say over 100m McFadden may be quicker, over 30m though I think Earls has massive acceleration, which lets be honest is far more important.

Utah_Saint

I honestly thought Gilroy would have been the fastest?
Maybe its just the initial 10-15m in which he's quickest...


I like Cave but I've said before he doesn't do anything that makes you think he should be given an extended run in the Ireland team....but hey, what do I know, I'm just an armchair critic....;)

I liked the look of EOM but injuries have really push him back. Still would like to see Olding at 13 but it won't happen. Chris Farrell prob has the best opportunity of the young guys if he gets a run for ulster...

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Pretty sure I've heard McFadden is faster than Earls? He was quickest when Earls was in the squad anyway. Haven't heard since Zebo joined up with the squad though.

Zebo was the fastest in the last 6Ns camp (some bragging over twitter). Earls & Gilroy got honorable mention.

LeeroyJones

Pace over 100 metres is pretty much irrelevant. How many times do we actually see players have a footrace coast-to-coast? Tommy Bowe is renowned as one of the top wingers in the NH yet he was chopped down with relative ease by JOC in the 2011 WC over 100 metres. It has no bearing on how people rate him as a winger, and rightly so.

Pace over 5-30 metres buys you the space and over 50metres puts away any opportunity coming a wingers way in the oppositions half.

P.Walnuts

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Pace over 100 metres is pretty much irrelevant. How many times do we actually see players have a footrace coast-to-coast? Tommy Bowe is renowned as one of the top wingers in the NH yet he was chopped down with relative ease by JOC in the 2011 WC over 100 metres. It has no bearing on how people rate him as a winger, and rightly so.

Pace over 5-30 metres buys you the space and over 50metres puts away any opportunity coming a wingers way in the oppositions half.

Yep

I'd say acceleration is a far more useful asset than top speed, certainly for a centre anyway

Mahatma Geansai

Cave doesn't stand out at club level. He's Ulster's worst (least good) outside back and the most likely to lose their spot in the backline. I'd argue that Payne to 13 with Gilroy linking with Bowe and Trimble in the back 3 is a stronger team than Gilroy/Trimble benching with Cave at 13. Even if that doesn't happen, he'll be doing very well to hold off the challenge from Olding/Farrell/Marshall over the next two years.

.ak

Think you're seriously underrating Cave. Take Cave out and you wouldn't see half as many line breaks. His skill at reading a line and getting his hands free in the tackle is often key to Ulster's penetration. His tackling his monumental too.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Think you're seriously underrating Cave. Take Cave out and you wouldn't see half as many line breaks. His skill at reading a line and getting his hands free in the tackle is often key to Ulster's penetration. His tackling his monumental too.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't consider his tackling to be monumental. It's adequate and technically solid. He does fall off them now and again.

To phrase it as him being the "worst" outside back is a harsh way of putting it but it's also accurate. Marshall/Wallace, Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy and Payne are all more talented players. It doesn't mean Cave isn't a good player in his own right though. Cave is the Fraser Waters type player that goes about his business tidily and efficiently that helps others perform.

With all that said, I cannot ever see him being good enough to be a regular international. He'll fall into the bracket of guys like John Muldoon and Emmet Byrne. Accomplished players who didn't have that top level ability to really force their way to compete at international standard. His spot will come under increasing pressure this season though if Olding and Marshall both play as well as they have done in the past season. Cave will be the first person many will look to omit to accommodate a newcomer.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Think you're seriously underrating Cave. Take Cave out and you wouldn't see half as many line breaks. His skill at reading a line and getting his hands free in the tackle is often key to Ulster's penetration. His tackling his monumental too.

This is a huge part of his game and something that's always really impressed. We don't need to get every one of our outside backs making huge line breaks at serious pace. Leinster haven't had centres doing that very often over the last few seasons. Yet they've been playing exciting and winning rugby. The great thing about Drico the last few years is his ability to draw defenders and/or find the pass that puts others into space. He's often used in the "Gaffney loop" and tends to create a bit for those around him. Cave could be used in a similar fashion. I'd like to see him outside Sexton and Marshall/Olding with Bowe and Zebo coming in-field like they do. A guy like that with options either side (and Sexton looping around behind as well, not to mention Kearney lurking in the background) could create serious headaches for defenses.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

This is a huge part of his game and something that's always really impressed. We don't need to get every one of our outside backs making huge line breaks at serious pace. Leinster haven't had centres doing that very often over the last few seasons. Yet they've been playing exciting and winning rugby. The great thing about Drico the last few years is his ability to draw defenders and/or find the pass that puts others into space. He's often used in the "Gaffney loop" and tends to create a bit for those around him. Cave could be used in a similar fashion. I'd like to see him outside Sexton and Marshall/Olding with Bowe and Zebo coming in-field like they do. A guy like that with options either side (and Sexton looping around behind as well, not to mention Kearney lurking in the background) could create serious headaches for defenses.

You're right it would be great.

Although I'd like to see a more direct 12 inside them. I think Marshall can actually play that role really well.

I'm very excited to see what Schmidt can do with these players when he gets a proper crack with them!

Leinster7

Talk about who you like. There is still noone holding a candle to BODs sheer class, creativity, defence and all round game. He will be a big loss when he retires and so we can only hope that Schmidt grooms a Henshaw or an O'Malley cos Cave and Earls certainly aren't International class and Gilroy & Zebo are wingers and McFadden is best at 12.

Clearlier

It'll be interesting to see how BOD (well I suppose Ireland as well) respond to Schmidt as head coach. His attacking game had largely been hidden for Ireland and his excellence was focused more on defence. It could be that by and large he just hasn't got it anymore but I suspect that it was more the game plan which limited his opportunities.

I first noticed Cave several years ago when he played with Earls at centre in one of the A teams that went over to the US for a summer tournament. I hadn't heard of him before but Earls had already been hyped up so I was keeping an eye on him. The physical attributes of Earls did stand out a little but Cave was a far more accomplished rugby player and I thought that he would come through to challenge BOD for his place within a couple of years. I don't think the Ulster set up at the time helped him develop, perhaps he lacked a little confidence, maybe he just hasn't got the right mindset. I'm not sure why but he didn't make the breakthrough that his talents demanded. He has had a few fleeting opportunities at international level but he has been noted mostly for defensive errors. I imagine that these would be eliminated if he became a regular squad member and thus more familiar with the systems but it's difficult to see him getting that opportunity at this stage.

Mahatma Geansai

Funny how Earls is continually dismissed as a 13 when Zebo has been the best winger in the country over the last 2 years with Earls inside him. I guess Earls is only a finisher...

shuffol

George North's the best winger in the NH but I still wouldnt rate Jonathan Davies's distribution skills.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

shuffol wrote: »

George North's the best winger in the NH but I still wouldnt rate Jonathan Davies's distribution skills.

I agree with the sentiment but I certainly wouldn't call North the best winger in the NH.

Def one of the best with ball in hand but there are several more rounded wingers playing up here imo

slowburner

If Scmidt dropped BOD now, he would be downright crazy. Nothing motivates the Irish more than injustice. Everyone knows that BOD needs to finish on a high and many feel that he was mistreated on the tour down under .
This six nations is going to have an edge, a very sharp Irish edge to cut the Welsh. There is no doubting that BOD has more reasons than anyone else, ever, to see that Ireland win the championship and there is no doubt fifteen men will be with him.

slimpickens

Slowburner

You used the word "injustice".

Inapt.

JagerScout

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Funny how Earls is continually dismissed as a 13 when Zebo has been the best winger in the country over the last 2 years with Earls inside him. I guess Earls is only a finisher...

yeah zebo really isn't that good is he, its all earls great distribution :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

earls has played 20 games in the last two seasons for Munster, Zebo has played 38 by the way.

jm08

JagerScout wrote: »

yeah zebo really isn't that good is he, its all earls great distribution :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

earls has played 20 games in the last two seasons for Munster, Zebo has played 38 by the way.

Zebo's try x centre played with over last 2 seasons.

Danny Barnes 3
Will Chambers 1
Keith Earls 9
Johne Murphy 2
Ivan Dineen 1
Casey 2 (and one of those was his solo effort against Racing).

Worth watching this Zebo tribute to see some sharp passing between Earls & Zebo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo's try x centre played with over last 2 seasons.

Danny Barnes 3
Will Chambers 1
Keith Earls 9
Johne Murphy 2
Ivan Dineen 1
Casey 2 (and one of those was his solo effort against Racing).

Worth watching this Zebo tribute to see some sharp passing between Earls & Zebo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

Those stats would mean more if you could include the number of games they played together

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Those stats would mean more if you could include the number of games they played together

For the season just gone Zebo scored with:
Casey - 7 games @ 13 = 2 tries.
Earls - 7 games @ 13 = 4 tries

Earls usually plays the more challenging Rabo games & HCup. Zebo got 2 HCup hatricks with Earls as centre.

phog

slowburner wrote: »

If Scmidt dropped BOD now, he would be downright crazy. Nothing motivates the Irish more than injustice. Everyone knows that BOD needs to finish on a high and many feel that he was mistreated on the tour down under .
This six nations is going to have an edge, a very sharp Irish edge to cut the Welsh. There is no doubting that BOD has more reasons than anyone else, ever, to see that Ireland win the championship and there is no doubt fifteen men will be with him.

Whatever the reasons for dropping or keeping BOO, I hope this isn't one of them.

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo's try x centre played with over last 2 seasons.

Danny Barnes 3
Will Chambers 1
Keith Earls 9
Johne Murphy 2
Ivan Dineen 1
Casey 2 (and one of those was his solo effort against Racing).

Worth watching this Zebo tribute to see some sharp passing between Earls & Zebo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

So Earls is a better centre than Danny Barnes, Will Chambers, Johne Murphy, Ivan Dineen and Casey...with the possible exception of Casey I'd like to bloomin' think so...!

Earls is a good centre, unfortunately when he's played for Ireland he's been compared to BOD, I think Earls is quite similar to what BOD was like 10 years ago, just not quite as good, but as I've said before I think big centres who have good distribution skills are more in vogue at test level now and it's just harder for guys like Earls to operate in the midfield. It's just because defences are so much better now. I don't think a 2001 BOD would find things so easy nowadays either, he'd still be a standout but maybe not as much and obviously he has had to adjust his game accordingly for this reason (as well as injuries and having less pace) over the years.

Earls may be BOD's successor, but I tend to think he'd be more effective on the wing for Ireland moving forward, but then there is a lot of competition there in Bowe and Zebo with Gilroy, Trimble and hopefully a fit Fitzgerald in contention as well.

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo's try x centre played with over last 2 seasons.

Danny Barnes 3
Will Chambers 1
Keith Earls 9
Johne Murphy 2
Ivan Dineen 1
Casey 2 (and one of those was his solo effort against Racing).

Worth watching this Zebo tribute to see some sharp passing between Earls & Zebo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

If you're using somebodies try stats to big up the player inside them then you should be using assists.

How many of those above tries were assists?

You're using a stat wrongly to further your point.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

If you're using somebodies try stats to big up the player inside them then you should be using assists.

How many of those above tries were assists?

You're using a stat wrongly to further your point.

If you looked at Zebo's video, Earls was fairly involved in a lot of his tries - whether making the initial line break, drawing the player and passing and creating space for the others. He seemed to be there a lot in support as well.

My point is that if Earl's distribution and passing is as poor as is made out, Zebo would not get his hands on the ball to score.

phog

.ak wrote: »

If you're using somebodies try stats to big up the player inside them then you should be using assists.

How many of those above tries were assists?

You're using a stat wrongly to further your point.

I wouldn't think that's correct either when talking about a player in a certain position, the centre might create a dozen chances but any player might have been the final passer to the try scorer.

paulmcshane

Basically the question should be do we think one season is enough to develop any of BOD's potential replacements to the point where they're up to playing at a World Cup. If not then they should be given the game time to reach the standard required, regardless of whether BOD's available or not.

Of course that doesn't mean dropping BOD altogether, but using him sparingly with his replacements getting enough significant gametime.

Whats more important, WC2015 or the coming international season?

I'm a bit torn to be honest.

CatFromHue

paulmcshane wrote: »

Whats more important, WC2015 or the coming international season?

After the 13/14 season there'll be

3 November Internationals in Nov 2014
5 6N games in Feb/Mar 2015
2 or 3 RWC warm up games in Aug 2015

That's 10 or 11 games after next season before the RWC i.e. the 13/14 season is too early to be picking your team for the 2015 RWC.

Another way to look it is that in the 2010 6N none of Jonathan Davies, Toby Faletau, or Rhys Priestland were playing for Wales. Halfpenny was playing on the wing then too.

Mahatma Geansai

CatFromHue wrote: »

After the 13/14 season there'll be

3 November Internationals in Nov 2014
5 6N games in Feb/Mar 2015
2 or 3 RWC warm up games in Aug 2015

That's 10 or 11 games after next season before the RWC i.e. the 13/14 season is too early to be picking your team for the 2015 RWC.

Another way to look it is that in the 2010 6N none of Jonathan Davies, Toby Faletau, or Rhys Priestland were playing for Wales. Halfpenny was playing on the wing then too.

Those 10/11 games are loads if a centre partnership settles straight off the bat, but what if it doesn't? You've 10 games to give maybe 3 players a shot at 13 with different 12's inside them.

jm08

CatFromHue wrote: »

After the 13/14 season there'll be

3 November Internationals in Nov 2014
5 6N games in Feb/Mar 2015
2 or 3 RWC warm up games in Aug 2015

That's 10 or 11 games after next season before the RWC i.e. the 13/14 season is too early to be picking your team for the 2015 RWC.

Another way to look it is that in the 2010 6N none of Jonathan Davies, Toby Faletau, or Rhys Priestland were playing for Wales. Halfpenny was playing on the wing then too.

Jonathan Davies got capped on the summer tour in 2009. He was dropped for the 2010 6Ns, but went on tour to NZ & Australia in 2010. He has 39 caps now and its really only on the Lions tour that he was rated. He had a very poor game against Ireland in this 6Ns.

Toby Faletau career mirrors Conor Murrays trajectory in that they both came to the fore in the warm-up games for the world cup. Many here didn't approve of Murray's quick promotion. Leigh 1/2penny has been around for about 5 years now.