Should Schmidt drop BOD?

jm08 · 18-07-2013 1:21am

JagerScout wrote: »

biggest game of the season had Casey starting 13 and earls on the wing.. I wonder why..

Howlett & O'Dea were injured. Earls was coming back from an injury, but Penney was getting his best players on the pitch.

JagerScout · 18-07-2013 1:22am

jm08 wrote: »

Howlett & O'Dea were injured. Earls was coming back from an injury, but Penney was getting his best players on the pitch.

got earls playing his best position, wing. smart move by penny.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 18-07-2013 1:22am

JagerScout wrote: »

biggest game of the season had Casey starting 13 and earls on the wing.. I wonder why..

Denis Hurley/Johne Murphy being the other wing options that's why, Earls had also been injured. It certainly wasn't formed based, LLL was abysmal in the weeks leading up to that game

Earls started ahead of LLL at 13 for the vast majority of the season

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 18-07-2013 1:26am

To add to that if Howlett was fit Earls would have started at 13, I've no doubt about that at all

As it turned out LLL finally put in a shift that that was reminiscent of the player he was before joining Munster, and hopefully the one that will be with us next season

jm08 · 18-07-2013 1:29am

JagerScout wrote: »

got earls playing his best position, wing. smart move by penny.

Actually Earls never plays on Dougie's wing. When on the wing, its usually 11.

Earls has had 13 appearances in 5 seasons at 11 and 45 at 13.

JagerScout · 18-07-2013 1:30am

yet his best performances always come when playing on the wing.. surely not a coincidence.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 18-07-2013 1:34am

JagerScout wrote: »

yet his best performances always come when playing on the wing.. surely not a coincidence.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Earls is a better winger than a center. He was however, a more needed at 13 for Munster this season because of the form, or lack thereof, of Casey L

jm08 · 18-07-2013 1:38am

JagerScout wrote: »

yet his best performances always come when playing on the wing.. surely not a coincidence.

How do you rate the performances? Is it by the number of tries he scores or the difficulty of the finish?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 18-07-2013 1:39am

Jesus christ, It's nearly 3am and I'm here discussing Keith Earls in July! Off to bed with me!

jm08 · 18-07-2013 1:40am

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I don't think anyone is disputing that Earls is a better winger than a center. He was however, a more needed at 13 for Munster this season because of the form, or lack thereof, of Casey L

Indeed, he was a lazy defender and the number of his offloads that went to the opposition.

Hagz · 18-07-2013 1:43am

Thing is, I think Laulala's style of play required a bed in period, that I think he's passed now. It will be interesting to see who Penney goes with, but my gut instinct tells me that Laulala will produce for Munster the way he did for Cardiff next season.

jm08 · 18-07-2013 2:01am

Hagz wrote: »

Thing is, I think Laulala's style of play required a bed in period, that I think he's passed now. It will be interesting to see who Penney goes with, but my gut instinct tells me that Laulala will produce for Munster the way he did for Cardiff next season.

He should have bedded in a bit quicker than that bearing in mind the advantage he had over the others of having been coached by Penney previously.

Munsterfans have a player rating gizmo and his average over the season was 5.4. He got 7.9 for the Clermont game which helped his average considerably.

He will be gone at the end of next season and Munster will probably not be allowed sign an outside centre which will mean Munster will be down to one outside centre (Earls).

Leinster7 · 18-07-2013 6:14am

Only if his form is gash and O'Malley is on fire....but his form has rarely been consistently bad and every player has the odd bad game. Gatland dropping him for a perceived bad game in the 2nd test was nonsense considering how bad Philips played in all tests and he is first choice but then he was severely biased and had to have a go at the IRFU didn't he,..

18-07-2013 7:38am

lolthread.

Schmidt won't be dropping anyone.

Schmidt will promote a player into some of the AI games and potentially a 6N game if a chance is available.

BOD will play under Schmidt, but he will also not feature in every game.

vkid · 18-07-2013 7:45am

12 more months of this bod is past it/ the best player in the world ever nonsense to deal with

Oh joy..

.ak · 18-07-2013 8:16am

Considering Schmidt played a large role in getting BOD to stay on another year I can't see him dropping him now.

.ak · 18-07-2013 8:19am

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Well Schmidt does play McFadden at 13, a player I think is totally unsuited to the position and hardly a quality distributor either so who knows what he makes of Earls there

I actually think Earls would be a decent stop gap until one of the younger guys steps up or Payne becomes qualified. Earls instead of Cave for example, Cave is a more natural 13 but you don't always have to go with the more natural option. Earls does offer attacking potency at 13

Schmidt only plays Ferg at 13 when the injuries mount up. Generally speaking when certain players aren't available it goes like this: BOD>EOM>Darce>Ferg>Macken, it's just the way the injuries have played a part that Ferg had to play 13.

He's acknowledged himself that 12 is his best position, and I reckon Schmidt knew that too, but his hands were tied.

Podge_irl · 18-07-2013 8:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

BOD will play under Schmidt, but he will also not feature in every game.

For all that Schmidt rotated his team a lot, there was a spine that started every important game and BOD was very much part of that. I don't see that changing now - I'd be surprised if he was rested for anything other than the Samoa game.

.ak · 18-07-2013 9:24am

Podge_irl wrote: »

For all that Schmidt rotated his team a lot, there was a spine that started every important game and BOD was very much part of that. I don't see that changing now - I'd be surprised if he was rested for anything other than the Samoa game.

That's what I expect too. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he plays all 3 tests. Joe is no fool, he'll want to blood new players, but at the same time he needs to make a lasting impression and the AIs are the perfect platform to do it. I reckon he'll pick the best 15 available from day one, as he's a fan of consistency.

molloyjh · 18-07-2013 9:25am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Once BOD retires, an Irish team with an experienced 13 will be better than one with one who hasn't played in a Six Nations.

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I just don't want to go into the 2015 RWC with an inexperienced 13, and the best we can say in mitigation is, oh well, at least we came third rather than fourth in the 2014 6N because we played BDO the whole time.

There will be 6 games between the 2014 6Ns and the 2015 6Ns. Between the training camps etc Joe should pretty much know who his next OC is going to be. So those 6 games should be enough for a pro rugby player to get up to speed ahead of the 2015 6Ns. Then between that tournament and the RWC warm-ups we should be fine for the RWC itself.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I actually think Earls would be a decent stop gap until one of the younger guys steps up or Payne becomes qualified. Earls instead of Cave for example, Cave is a more natural 13 but you don't always have to go with the more natural option. Earls does offer attacking potency at 13

But Caves strength is exactly where Earls' weakness is, i.e. distribution. I really want to see a Schmidt coached Cave. I honestly think he could be very good.

bilston · 18-07-2013 9:57am

I would love to see Cave in a strong Ireland team, at the moment he has always been selected in weaker teams. That said he has never quite done it for Ireland yet, he hasnt played badly but he hasnt demanded further selection either, still in a strong side we might see the best of him.

leftleg · 18-07-2013 9:57am

jm08 wrote: »

Munsterfans have a player rating gizmo

I really wouldn't be leaning on any kind of "gizmo" from munsterfans to bulk up my own opinions.

jm08 · 18-07-2013 9:58am

molloyjh wrote: »

There will be 6 games between the 2014 6Ns and the 2015 6Ns. Between the training camps etc Joe should pretty much know who his next OC is going to be. So those 6 games should be enough for a pro rugby player to get up to speed ahead of the 2015 6Ns. Then between that tournament and the RWC warm-ups we should be fine for the RWC itself.

That will be some baptism of fire for whoever the chosen one is - 6 starts against SH opposition (is the summer tour to SA that season?).

But Caves strength is exactly where Earls' weakness is, i.e. distribution. I really want to see a Schmidt coached Cave. I honestly think he could be very good.

Schmidt can't coach pace. He can coach distribution though!

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 18-07-2013 9:59am

leftleg wrote: »

I really wouldn't be leaning on any kind of "gizmo" from munsterfans to bulk up my own opinions.

It is actually a cool app, and a nice feature of the site. You rate each player after every game of the season and it averages out and gives a pretty strong indicator of who the best player was in each month

18-07-2013 10:04am

lol at the Cave has no pace argument again.

jm08 · 18-07-2013 10:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

lol at the Cave has no pace argument again.

I can't think of any international centres that he would be as fast as (maybe BOD now, but BOD still has great acceleration over 5/6 metres).

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 18-07-2013 10:19am

jm08 wrote: »

I can't think of any international centres that he would be as fast as (maybe BOD now, but BOD still has great acceleration over 5/6 metres).

I'd say Cave is probably as fast or even faster than a lot of these international centers:

Davies, Smith, Nonu, Roberts, BOD, De Villiers

You don't need blistering pace to be a 13, Cave isn't slow either.

.ak · 18-07-2013 10:29am

No centre at any level require top end pace. That's not what being a 13 is about. Sure it's nice if you can run rings around your opponent, but it's not a requirement. Explosive stand-starts is a requirement though, and Cave has that sort of explosiveness.

jm08 · 18-07-2013 10:49am

9 out of 10 times though, coaches will take pace.

For instance, if Zebo makes a break on the wing, will Cave be right behind him in support to take an offload and finish? BOD's lack of pace now means that he himself isn't a threat from outside 10/15 metres. This means that the opposition know that more than likely he is going to pass / offload, so he won't be making space for his outside backs.

While its not a requirement to have top end pace, it sure is better to have it. Players like Nonu, Roberts, De Villiers (who has had enough pace to play on the wing for SA), etc have the physique that they don't get over and can bulldoze their way through. Conrad Smith is probably the only one who would have a similar physique to Cave, but apparently the thing about him is that he is more of a distance type runner who doesn't slow down as everyone else tires.

bilston · 18-07-2013 11:17am

jm08 wrote: »

9 out of 10 times though, coaches will take pace.

For instance, if Zebo makes a break on the wing, will Cave be right behind him in support to take an offload and finish?.

How slow do you think he is?!

jm08 · 18-07-2013 11:27am

bilston wrote: »

How slow do you think he is?!

Left for dead by Fergus McFadden in one of the warm-up games for the world cup.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 18-07-2013 11:39am

jm08 wrote: »

Left for dead by Fergus McFadden in one of the warm-up games for the world cup.

McFadden is one of the fastest Irish rugby players, if not the fastest

jm08 · 18-07-2013 11:57am

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

McFadden is one of the fastest Irish rugby players, if not the fastest

As far as I know, Zebo is at the moment, closely followed by Earls & Gilroy. Mcfadden isn't standout fast internationally which is who Cave will be up against.

BGozIE · 18-07-2013 12:06pm

jm08 wrote: »

As far as I know, Zebo is at the moment, closely followed by Earls & Gilroy. Mcfadden isn't standout fast internationally which is who Cave will be up against.

Earls and Gilroy, acceleration maybe. But is Bowe not one of the fastest Irish players atm.

Buer · 18-07-2013 12:16pm

Cave is not particularly slow. He's not particularly fast. My issue with him is that he simply isn't good enough overall (certainly not in the past 6 months) to be the replacement 13 for Ireland. He makes few mistakes but, on the other hand, often struggles to make an impact on a game. He isn't excellent at breaking the line. He isn't a highly creative player. He isn't a destructive tackler. He reads the game well, picks good lines and supports very well.

He does everything quite well but not anything to a standard that makes you sit up. He's a supporting cast member at provincial level all be it a bloody good one. He's 27 next season and I don't think I've ever really thought "This bloke needs to get a run for Ireland".

jm08 · 18-07-2013 12:20pm

former legend wrote: »

Even more lols at the "McFadden isn't fast" posts. Tragic.

Sorry to spoil your lols, but that is not what I posted. I said he isn't standout fast internationally (which can be interpreting as saying at club level he would be considered fast, but he would be average internationally.

Re Bowe - Tommy Bowe wouldn't be known as a speed merchant (in fact George Hook used to claim he didn't have the pace to become an international winger)!

irishbucsfan · 18-07-2013 12:23pm

Pretty sure I've heard McFadden is faster than Earls? He was quickest when Earls was in the squad anyway. Haven't heard since Zebo joined up with the squad though.

P.Walnuts · 18-07-2013 12:24pm

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I'd say Cave is probably as fast or even faster than a lot of these international centers:

Davies, Smith, Nonu, Roberts, BOD, De Villiers

You don't need blistering pace to be a 13, Cave isn't slow either.

That is pushing it a little.....alot of those players might lack top end pace over a big distance, but still have fairly decent acceleration over 10-15m....

I don't know why the big fuss over the suggestion Cave doesn't have top end pace....he doesn't, its fairly clear. He is a good footbaler, good tackler and has good hands....but I get the distinct impression from wtching him he just doesn;t have enough to be a good international 13.

18-07-2013 12:26pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Pretty sure I've heard McFadden is faster than Earls? He was quickest when Earls was in the squad anyway. Haven't heard since Zebo joined up with the squad though.

If McFadden is faster than Earls then the argument is clearly over as to who should be the starting Outside Centre.

9 times out of 10 coaches go for pace.

Three Cheers for McFadden - # 13

hip hip

jm08 · 18-07-2013 12:27pm

Good summary Buer - I'd reason that he isn't above average in those area you mention because of his lack of pace as he seems to be an intelligent player.

P.Walnuts · 18-07-2013 12:28pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Pretty sure I've heard McFadden is faster than Earls? He was quickest when Earls was in the squad anyway. Haven't heard since Zebo joined up with the squad though.

I'd say over 100m McFadden may be quicker, over 30m though I think Earls has massive acceleration, which lets be honest is far more important.

Utah_Saint · 18-07-2013 12:31pm

I honestly thought Gilroy would have been the fastest?
Maybe its just the initial 10-15m in which he's quickest...

I like Cave but I've said before he doesn't do anything that makes you think he should be given an extended run in the Ireland team....but hey, what do I know, I'm just an armchair critic....;)

I liked the look of EOM but injuries have really push him back. Still would like to see Olding at 13 but it won't happen. Chris Farrell prob has the best opportunity of the young guys if he gets a run for ulster...

jm08 · 18-07-2013 12:35pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Pretty sure I've heard McFadden is faster than Earls? He was quickest when Earls was in the squad anyway. Haven't heard since Zebo joined up with the squad though.

Zebo was the fastest in the last 6Ns camp (some bragging over twitter). Earls & Gilroy got honorable mention.

LeeroyJones · 18-07-2013 1:26pm

Pace over 100 metres is pretty much irrelevant. How many times do we actually see players have a footrace coast-to-coast? Tommy Bowe is renowned as one of the top wingers in the NH yet he was chopped down with relative ease by JOC in the 2011 WC over 100 metres. It has no bearing on how people rate him as a winger, and rightly so.

Pace over 5-30 metres buys you the space and over 50metres puts away any opportunity coming a wingers way in the oppositions half.

P.Walnuts · 18-07-2013 1:43pm

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Pace over 100 metres is pretty much irrelevant. How many times do we actually see players have a footrace coast-to-coast? Tommy Bowe is renowned as one of the top wingers in the NH yet he was chopped down with relative ease by JOC in the 2011 WC over 100 metres. It has no bearing on how people rate him as a winger, and rightly so.

Pace over 5-30 metres buys you the space and over 50metres puts away any opportunity coming a wingers way in the oppositions half.

Yep

I'd say acceleration is a far more useful asset than top speed, certainly for a centre anyway

Mahatma Geansai · 18-07-2013 4:17pm

Cave doesn't stand out at club level. He's Ulster's worst (least good) outside back and the most likely to lose their spot in the backline. I'd argue that Payne to 13 with Gilroy linking with Bowe and Trimble in the back 3 is a stronger team than Gilroy/Trimble benching with Cave at 13. Even if that doesn't happen, he'll be doing very well to hold off the challenge from Olding/Farrell/Marshall over the next two years.

.ak · 18-07-2013 7:39pm

Think you're seriously underrating Cave. Take Cave out and you wouldn't see half as many line breaks. His skill at reading a line and getting his hands free in the tackle is often key to Ulster's penetration. His tackling his monumental too.

Buer · 18-07-2013 9:18pm

.ak wrote: »

Think you're seriously underrating Cave. Take Cave out and you wouldn't see half as many line breaks. His skill at reading a line and getting his hands free in the tackle is often key to Ulster's penetration. His tackling his monumental too.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't consider his tackling to be monumental. It's adequate and technically solid. He does fall off them now and again.

To phrase it as him being the "worst" outside back is a harsh way of putting it but it's also accurate. Marshall/Wallace, Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy and Payne are all more talented players. It doesn't mean Cave isn't a good player in his own right though. Cave is the Fraser Waters type player that goes about his business tidily and efficiently that helps others perform.

With all that said, I cannot ever see him being good enough to be a regular international. He'll fall into the bracket of guys like John Muldoon and Emmet Byrne. Accomplished players who didn't have that top level ability to really force their way to compete at international standard. His spot will come under increasing pressure this season though if Olding and Marshall both play as well as they have done in the past season. Cave will be the first person many will look to omit to accommodate a newcomer.

molloyjh · 19-07-2013 10:12am

.ak wrote: »

Think you're seriously underrating Cave. Take Cave out and you wouldn't see half as many line breaks. His skill at reading a line and getting his hands free in the tackle is often key to Ulster's penetration. His tackling his monumental too.

This is a huge part of his game and something that's always really impressed. We don't need to get every one of our outside backs making huge line breaks at serious pace. Leinster haven't had centres doing that very often over the last few seasons. Yet they've been playing exciting and winning rugby. The great thing about Drico the last few years is his ability to draw defenders and/or find the pass that puts others into space. He's often used in the "Gaffney loop" and tends to create a bit for those around him. Cave could be used in a similar fashion. I'd like to see him outside Sexton and Marshall/Olding with Bowe and Zebo coming in-field like they do. A guy like that with options either side (and Sexton looping around behind as well, not to mention Kearney lurking in the background) could create serious headaches for defenses.

irishbucsfan · 19-07-2013 10:33am

molloyjh wrote: »

This is a huge part of his game and something that's always really impressed. We don't need to get every one of our outside backs making huge line breaks at serious pace. Leinster haven't had centres doing that very often over the last few seasons. Yet they've been playing exciting and winning rugby. The great thing about Drico the last few years is his ability to draw defenders and/or find the pass that puts others into space. He's often used in the "Gaffney loop" and tends to create a bit for those around him. Cave could be used in a similar fashion. I'd like to see him outside Sexton and Marshall/Olding with Bowe and Zebo coming in-field like they do. A guy like that with options either side (and Sexton looping around behind as well, not to mention Kearney lurking in the background) could create serious headaches for defenses.

You're right it would be great.

Although I'd like to see a more direct 12 inside them. I think Marshall can actually play that role really well.

I'm very excited to see what Schmidt can do with these players when he gets a proper crack with them!

Should Schmidt drop BOD?

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