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Should Schmidt drop BOD?

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    #92
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    "He then dropped O'Driscoll because he thought the senior statesman was cowing the men inside him. Gatland wanted Sexton to step up".

    That's a factual statemnt - that's not "Gatland probably wanted..." or "it must have seemed logical that..." So unless the writer has no journalistic standards at all, that's come from Gatland.

    It's complete fiction.


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    #93
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Honestly if the writer is claiming Gatland thought that the presence of BOD was cowing Sexton than either Gatland is an idiot or the writer is talking through his hole, and for the time being I'm more inclined to believe the latter.


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    #94
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    "He then dropped O'Driscoll because he thought the senior statesman was cowing the men inside him. Gatland wanted Sexton to step up".

    That's a factual statemnt - that's not "Gatland probably wanted..." or "it must have seemed logical that..." So unless the writer has no journalistic standards at all, that's come from Gatland. And does the need to drop BOD reflect worse on Sexton the same way it reflects worse on Davies, in your opinion?

    I don't really want to get into this - I would have started BOD, the win hasn't vindicated Gatland's decision.. but the handwringing and wailing about any precieved slight to BOD is tedious (not aimed at you, Molloy).

    I honestly believe the article is twaddle. If Gatland really did say those things there'd be a direct quote from the man himself. It's supposition and nothing more from what I can tell.
    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    As a Cave fan, I was disappointed in his North American tour. As I have been pretty much every time he plays internationally.

    I was in the process of writing him off, and I decided to look up who he's played with for his five caps.

    He has started with Ian Whitten twice (for Whitten's first and second caps), with Stuart Olding (for his first cap) and James Downey (for his first cap).

    Let's leave aside, for a moment, his seven minutes at the end for a well-beaten Ireland side against New Zealand last summer. If we do, he has never played for Ireland with O'Gara, or Heaslip, or O'Brien, or Reddan, or Kearney.

    Let's include those seven minutes. He has still never played (for Ireland) with Healy, POC, Ferris, Murray, Sexton, D'Arcy, Fitzgerald, Bowe.

    Cave has never gotten a crack with anything other than a second-choice team roped together to beat second-tier nations. I think he deserves more of a chance to stake a claim. He's not BOD - we know that. However, unless we want to ask other teams to play fourteen-aside after BOD retires, we may get our collective head around the fact that our next OC won't be nearly as good, no matter who he is.

    If we don't start blooding someone now, occasionally, in games that matter, when BOD retires we will have a new OC who only not isn't nearly as good, but whose flaws will be exacerbated by massive inexperience. And god help them.

    With Caves skill-set I do think Joe could utilise him quite well. That said the summer tour next year + the AIs would give whatever replacement identified a good run before the 2015 6 Nations. I'm not sure there's much point in throwing in Cave or whoever for the Samoa game if he's not going to feature again at 13 until the summer. He certainly won't feature against NZ and probably not against the Aussies. And he won't be first choice in the 6 Ns. The only real logic for playing him against Samoa would be to protect Drico from some of their big, and often illegal, hits.


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    #95
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    A big ask IBF - The last game is NZ! I'd say BOD will be starting that one anyway!

    The problem with both BOD & Cave is that they are not good benchers in that they don't play in any of the outside back positions.

    Ah I thought NZ was 2nd. BOD will definitely start the NZ game. His final hurdle.


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    #96
    LeeroyJones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭LeeroyJones


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    We need to develop alternatives to BOD. Hopefully Schmidt is able to do it, because going into the RWC with only a year to find a replacement is horrible planning, but its the road we're going down.

    Schmidt has 3 games next Summer, 3 games the following November, a full 6 Nations campaign and more Pre-World Cup Tests to play somebody else at 13. It's not that horrible.


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    #97
    19543261
    Registered Users Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭19543261


    justsomebloke wrote: »
    ye if BOD was to become a coach I would prefer it to start somewhere else. Just because he was a fantastic player doesn't necessarily mean that he is going to be a great coach, if anything more often then not it can mean the opposite. As due to the fact that everything came so easy to him it can be frustrating when he has to deal with people where it doesn't.

    Its a good point, but has he not dealt with those people every week up to this point? i.e. his teammates.


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    #98
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    LeeroyJones wrote: »
    Schmidt has 3 games next Summer, 3 games the following November, a full 6 Nations campaign and more Pre-World Cup Tests to play somebody else at 13. It's not that horrible.

    Yep, it's something like 20 tests between BOD's planned retirement and the start of the WC, it's loads of time.


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    #99
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    LeeroyJones wrote: »
    Schmidt has 3 games next Summer, 3 games the following November, a full 6 Nations campaign and more Pre-World Cup Tests to play somebody else at 13. It's not that horrible.

    Not really at all. If we can't figure out who is in line for the jersey in 14 games, there's something desperately wrong. As it stands, BOD has only played in 8 of Ireland's last 18 games so it's not like the opportunities to look at others haven't been there.

    In the past 18 months, Earls has had multiple starts in the role and has never made it his own so I don't think he's the answer. Cave had a couple of games there and didn't really demand selection either. McFadden had a run there and was found wanting. All of them are now moving towards their late twenties so I don't think any are going to be the answer.

    It seems bleak but I see that as a good thing. Put them to one side and lets look at the next option. In the Samoa game, I'd like to have a look at Olding in the 13 jersey. He has played there for Ireland at age grade level, has great footwork and is a natural with ball in hand. He hasn't been found wanting defensively either yet. Himself and Marshall could potentially be a 50 cap partnership. No reason not to try something like them together against Samoa.


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    #100
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,911 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    Yes for at least two of the Autumn internationals and no for the 6N. Dropped from the xv though, not the squad. I do buy into the argument about his influence on the younger players.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the question is settled due to injury though. They are becoming more frequent.


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    #101
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Rigor Mortis wrote: »
    They are becoming more frequent.

    Are they though? How many injuries did he have last season? Two? I don't think that is that unusual these days. You either get injured or you don't, I don't think age is that big a factor in that. Where age comes into it is probably in your powers of recovery. I'm roughly the same age as him as I know from my own experience of playing a very social brand of rugby that it takes me to about Tuesday now to recover from a Saturday game, I'd hate to think what it's like trying to recover from a test match!


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    #102
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    .ak wrote: »
    It's complete fiction.

    Okay. Thanks for that, Warren.


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    #103
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Okay. Thanks for that, Warren.

    You're just reiterating my point. It's complete fiction until the journo says how he knows it to be fact, or indeed Gatland comes out and says it. Until then, it's baseless fiction, poor journalism at best.

    I don't mind journalists speculating, that's their job most of the time, however when they use the English language to try and pawn their ideas off as fact, then I take issue with it.


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    #104
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    .ak wrote: »
    You're just reiterating my point. It's complete fiction until the journo says how he knows it to be fact, or indeed Gatland comes out and says it. Until then, it's baseless fiction, poor journalism at best.

    I don't mind journalists speculating, that's their job most of the time, however when they use the English language to try and pawn their ideas off as fact, then I take issue with it.


    I noticed it had no direct quotes, but there's no weasel words there - it states, rather than implies, casue and effect. Gatland could take a legal case, if he gave a monkey's.

    Let's move on, anyway.

    Who organises the defensive line for the Irish backs? I knwo Cave does it at Ulster.


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    #105
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    . Gatland could take a legal case, if he gave a monkey's.

    He could do no such thing. It's an opinion piece and is highlighted as one.


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    #106
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    .ak wrote: »
    You're just reiterating my point. It's complete fiction until the journo says how he knows it to be fact, or indeed Gatland comes out and says it. Until then, it's baseless fiction, poor journalism at best.

    I don't mind journalists speculating, that's their job most of the time, however when they use the English language to try and pawn their ideas off as fact, then I take issue with it.

    I wouldn't dismiss it quite so readily - I'd expect denials about it from Gatland if it wasn't true. Both Gatland (coaching video) and Reason (blogs) contribute to TheRugbySite.

    Bearing in mind the uproar about BOD being dropped in the first place, I'd imagine the Lions PR people would not want that sort of reasoning getting out and this is one way Gatland could get around that muzzling.

    Gatland got a bit of criticism for dropping BOD in New Zealand and if he fancies getting the ABs job, he would need to get that record straight now.


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    #107
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Buer wrote: »
    He could do no such thing. It's an opinion piece and is highlighted as one.

    That says, specifically, he dropped BOD because he was shouting at Davies.

    You can make all the value judgements you want in an ed op piece, you cannot print facts that are inaccurate in a paper without being legally held to account.

    If I wrote "Gatland is racist" in an opinion piece, would that be okay? No, because it's not either demonstrably true, or bracketed with a signifier that it's my hypothesis.


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    #108
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,083 ✭✭✭✭phog


    If you want to win a game/series you play BOD, if you're planning for the future you try another or other player/s, simple really.

    Time waits for no man and he's go at some stage and Ireland need to be ready for that time.


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    #109
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    That says, specifically, he dropped BOD because he was shouting at Davies.

    You can make all the value judgements you want in an ed op piece, you cannot print facts that are inaccurate in a paper without being legally held to account.

    If I wrote "Gatland is racist" in an opinion piece, would that be okay? No, because it's not either demonstrably true, or bracketed with a signifier that it's my hypothesis.

    No because that's libelous. The actual comment is not. It happens every day of the week in publications across the world in editorials. If people could take legal action against such articles, every newspaper would be out of business overnight.

    That's not libelous. It's an opinion based on events that transpired. Gatland could take legal action if it was damaging to his character but it's nothing of the sort.

    If they reported facts incorrectly then they would be asked to print a retraction. These are not facts. It is an individual presenting a hypyothesis for Gatland's thoughts in the form of an opinion. Just because he writes "Gatland thought" instead of "I think Gatland thought" does not make it fact.


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    #110
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    You can make all the value judgements you want in an ed op piece, you cannot print facts that are inaccurate in a paper without being legally held to account.

    I hate to break it to you but the media, be it newspapers or TV shows or blogs or whatever, do this kind of thing all the time. They aren't there to tell you "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". They are there to sell.

    And if Drico was dropped for shouting at players then why wasn't Sexton, who had been doing every bit as much. He's also renowned for being a cranky fecker on the pitch and isn't shy about showing that side of himself to team mates. If shouting at other players was an issue he'd have been one of the first names dropped. The thing is players shout at each other fairly frequently, and if that leads to one player "shrivelling up" then the guy is in the wrong job.

    It's an opinion piece with no direct quotes backing up what it is saying. And given what it is trying to say I see no reason at all to believe a single word of it.


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    #111
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    molloyjh wrote: »
    And given what it is trying to say I see no reason at all to believe a single word of it.

    Yeah, I think that's really the issue, to be honest.


    I, on the other hand, find it completely believable that that was Gatland's reasoning.

    And I take the point about retraction, rather than legal action.


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    #112
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    molloyjh wrote: »
    IAnd if Drico was dropped for shouting at players then why wasn't Sexton, who had been doing every bit as much.

    Because the gulf between Sexton and Farrell is much greater than the gulf between BOD (on this tour) and Davies?

    It's disingenuous to divorce the decision to drop a player from the context of the performances of their competitors for the jersey.

    What an awful sentence. But you know what I mean.


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    #113
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    You would also have to take into considering BOD's standing in the game - a bit more awe inspiring than Sexton.

    It maybe part of the Irish culture for our teams to ball each other out, but its not like that everywhere. Paul O'Connell mentioned how quiet the dressing room was. Sexton admits he spends a lot of time apologising to team mates after games. Some players can take it better than others (for example, I'd say it would be water off a ducks back for Zebo, but it would be crushing for Earls). In a situation like the Lions, they don't really know each other that well to bawl each other out.


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    #114
    Almaviva
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    JagerScout wrote: »
    The 2015 rugby world cup is almost 2 years away, a replacement for BOD will be required, should Ireland begin that transitioning now? Or should BOD be kept on until he retires from Ireland post the 2014 6 nations?

    Listen Warren, you made your choice and maybe you were justified. And yes you got a bit a pasting in a certain thread hereabouts.
    But there's no need to start picking at what is still an open wound here just for your own jollies.


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    #115
    tolosenc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    If an heir apparent appears in the short term, then give him a shot for sure.

    Meanwhile, we don't have a player who comes close to BOD at our disposal. We've tried a few possibilities, who have ranged from hopeless to uninspiring. O'Malley has been injured, so he is the only potential bolt from the blue. The man to step into the breach next summer, though, will be Daren Cave, I feel, and as such he should get some game time over the next season in so far as is possible.


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    #116
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    jm08 wrote: »
    I wouldn't dismiss it quite so readily - I'd expect denials about it from Gatland if it wasn't true. Both Gatland (coaching video) and Reason (blogs) contribute to TheRugbySite.

    Bearing in mind the uproar about BOD being dropped in the first place, I'd imagine the Lions PR people would not want that sort of reasoning getting out and this is one way Gatland could get around that muzzling.

    Gatland got a bit of criticism for dropping BOD in New Zealand and if he fancies getting the ABs job, he would need to get that record straight now.

    I don't think so. Gatland has had plenty of accusations thrown at him since he dropped BOD. Very few were answered.


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    #117
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    To be honest, if he got back and got six months of good rugby under his belt, I'd be all for looking at Fitz at 13 for Leinster initially and then Ireland.

    Marshall or Olding next though.

    I don't think Cave has that bit of class required for test level rugby. He's very competent and doesn't make many mistakes but doesn't give enough to be the replacement. Very solid in all facets, top class in none.


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    #118
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Yeah, I'd love to see Olding play at 13.

    As I said the beginning of the thread, I think the future 12/13 partnership will be a pair of Ulstermen. Just not sure which two yet...


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    #119
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    .ak wrote: »
    I don't think so. Gatland has had plenty of accusations thrown at him since he dropped BOD. Very few were answered.

    Apparently some think he was vindicated with the win (not all though - and hence the PR campaign).

    Another 'get Gats back to NZ' from the same website. Beginning to look like a bit of an advertorial campaign on behalf of Gatland.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/8915673/Get-coach-Warren-Gatland-the-gun-back-here


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    #120
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yeah I agree. Ireland's next centre pairing will have a lot to do with who Anscombe picks as his centre pairing. For as much as I like the player, I hope Wallace doesn't start for Ulster.


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    #121
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    jm08 wrote: »
    Apparently some think he was vindicated with the win (not all though - and hence the PR campaign).

    Another 'get Gats back to NZ' from the same website. Beginning to look like a bit of an advertorial campaign on behalf of Gatland.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/8915673/Get-coach-Warren-Gatland-the-gun-back-here

    Wouldn't surprise me if that was the motive.

    Don't think the Lions tour will have done much to further his chances of the AB job though. He'll need to coach in NZ first I reckon, they won't put much stock in NH trophies and won't be overly enamoured by the rugby the Lions played.


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