Should Schmidt drop BOD?

Leinster7 · 19-07-2013 6:32pm

Talk about who you like. There is still noone holding a candle to BODs sheer class, creativity, defence and all round game. He will be a big loss when he retires and so we can only hope that Schmidt grooms a Henshaw or an O'Malley cos Cave and Earls certainly aren't International class and Gilroy & Zebo are wingers and McFadden is best at 12.

Clearlier · 19-07-2013 11:01pm

It'll be interesting to see how BOD (well I suppose Ireland as well) respond to Schmidt as head coach. His attacking game had largely been hidden for Ireland and his excellence was focused more on defence. It could be that by and large he just hasn't got it anymore but I suspect that it was more the game plan which limited his opportunities.

I first noticed Cave several years ago when he played with Earls at centre in one of the A teams that went over to the US for a summer tournament. I hadn't heard of him before but Earls had already been hyped up so I was keeping an eye on him. The physical attributes of Earls did stand out a little but Cave was a far more accomplished rugby player and I thought that he would come through to challenge BOD for his place within a couple of years. I don't think the Ulster set up at the time helped him develop, perhaps he lacked a little confidence, maybe he just hasn't got the right mindset. I'm not sure why but he didn't make the breakthrough that his talents demanded. He has had a few fleeting opportunities at international level but he has been noted mostly for defensive errors. I imagine that these would be eliminated if he became a regular squad member and thus more familiar with the systems but it's difficult to see him getting that opportunity at this stage.

Mahatma Geansai · 19-07-2013 11:33pm

Funny how Earls is continually dismissed as a 13 when Zebo has been the best winger in the country over the last 2 years with Earls inside him. I guess Earls is only a finisher...

shuffol · 20-07-2013 12:32am

George North's the best winger in the NH but I still wouldnt rate Jonathan Davies's distribution skills.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 20-07-2013 12:39am

shuffol wrote: »

George North's the best winger in the NH but I still wouldnt rate Jonathan Davies's distribution skills.

I agree with the sentiment but I certainly wouldn't call North the best winger in the NH.

Def one of the best with ball in hand but there are several more rounded wingers playing up here imo

slowburner · 20-07-2013 12:56am

If Scmidt dropped BOD now, he would be downright crazy. Nothing motivates the Irish more than injustice. Everyone knows that BOD needs to finish on a high and many feel that he was mistreated on the tour down under .
This six nations is going to have an edge, a very sharp Irish edge to cut the Welsh. There is no doubting that BOD has more reasons than anyone else, ever, to see that Ireland win the championship and there is no doubt fifteen men will be with him.

slimpickens · 20-07-2013 2:58am

Slowburner

You used the word "injustice".

Inapt.

JagerScout · 20-07-2013 5:22am

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Funny how Earls is continually dismissed as a 13 when Zebo has been the best winger in the country over the last 2 years with Earls inside him. I guess Earls is only a finisher...

yeah zebo really isn't that good is he, its all earls great distribution :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

earls has played 20 games in the last two seasons for Munster, Zebo has played 38 by the way.

jm08 · 20-07-2013 6:53am

JagerScout wrote: »

yeah zebo really isn't that good is he, its all earls great distribution :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

earls has played 20 games in the last two seasons for Munster, Zebo has played 38 by the way.

Zebo's try x centre played with over last 2 seasons.

Danny Barnes 3
Will Chambers 1
Keith Earls 9
Johne Murphy 2
Ivan Dineen 1
Casey 2 (and one of those was his solo effort against Racing).

Worth watching this Zebo tribute to see some sharp passing between Earls & Zebo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

irishbucsfan · 20-07-2013 7:24am

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo's try x centre played with over last 2 seasons.

Danny Barnes 3
Will Chambers 1
Keith Earls 9
Johne Murphy 2
Ivan Dineen 1
Casey 2 (and one of those was his solo effort against Racing).

Worth watching this Zebo tribute to see some sharp passing between Earls & Zebo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

Those stats would mean more if you could include the number of games they played together

jm08 · 20-07-2013 8:12am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Those stats would mean more if you could include the number of games they played together

For the season just gone Zebo scored with:
Casey - 7 games @ 13 = 2 tries.
Earls - 7 games @ 13 = 4 tries

Earls usually plays the more challenging Rabo games & HCup. Zebo got 2 HCup hatricks with Earls as centre.

phog · 20-07-2013 8:19am

slowburner wrote: »

If Scmidt dropped BOD now, he would be downright crazy. Nothing motivates the Irish more than injustice. Everyone knows that BOD needs to finish on a high and many feel that he was mistreated on the tour down under .
This six nations is going to have an edge, a very sharp Irish edge to cut the Welsh. There is no doubting that BOD has more reasons than anyone else, ever, to see that Ireland win the championship and there is no doubt fifteen men will be with him.

Whatever the reasons for dropping or keeping BOO, I hope this isn't one of them.

bilston · 20-07-2013 9:13am

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo's try x centre played with over last 2 seasons.

Danny Barnes 3
Will Chambers 1
Keith Earls 9
Johne Murphy 2
Ivan Dineen 1
Casey 2 (and one of those was his solo effort against Racing).

Worth watching this Zebo tribute to see some sharp passing between Earls & Zebo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

So Earls is a better centre than Danny Barnes, Will Chambers, Johne Murphy, Ivan Dineen and Casey...with the possible exception of Casey I'd like to bloomin' think so...!

Earls is a good centre, unfortunately when he's played for Ireland he's been compared to BOD, I think Earls is quite similar to what BOD was like 10 years ago, just not quite as good, but as I've said before I think big centres who have good distribution skills are more in vogue at test level now and it's just harder for guys like Earls to operate in the midfield. It's just because defences are so much better now. I don't think a 2001 BOD would find things so easy nowadays either, he'd still be a standout but maybe not as much and obviously he has had to adjust his game accordingly for this reason (as well as injuries and having less pace) over the years.

Earls may be BOD's successor, but I tend to think he'd be more effective on the wing for Ireland moving forward, but then there is a lot of competition there in Bowe and Zebo with Gilroy, Trimble and hopefully a fit Fitzgerald in contention as well.

.ak · 20-07-2013 10:20am

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo's try x centre played with over last 2 seasons.

Danny Barnes 3
Will Chambers 1
Keith Earls 9
Johne Murphy 2
Ivan Dineen 1
Casey 2 (and one of those was his solo effort against Racing).

Worth watching this Zebo tribute to see some sharp passing between Earls & Zebo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

If you're using somebodies try stats to big up the player inside them then you should be using assists.

How many of those above tries were assists?

You're using a stat wrongly to further your point.

jm08 · 20-07-2013 10:42am

.ak wrote: »

If you're using somebodies try stats to big up the player inside them then you should be using assists.

How many of those above tries were assists?

You're using a stat wrongly to further your point.

If you looked at Zebo's video, Earls was fairly involved in a lot of his tries - whether making the initial line break, drawing the player and passing and creating space for the others. He seemed to be there a lot in support as well.

My point is that if Earl's distribution and passing is as poor as is made out, Zebo would not get his hands on the ball to score.

phog · 20-07-2013 10:55am

.ak wrote: »

If you're using somebodies try stats to big up the player inside them then you should be using assists.

How many of those above tries were assists?

You're using a stat wrongly to further your point.

I wouldn't think that's correct either when talking about a player in a certain position, the centre might create a dozen chances but any player might have been the final passer to the try scorer.

paulmcshane · 20-07-2013 1:43pm

Basically the question should be do we think one season is enough to develop any of BOD's potential replacements to the point where they're up to playing at a World Cup. If not then they should be given the game time to reach the standard required, regardless of whether BOD's available or not.

Of course that doesn't mean dropping BOD altogether, but using him sparingly with his replacements getting enough significant gametime.

Whats more important, WC2015 or the coming international season?

I'm a bit torn to be honest.

CatFromHue · 20-07-2013 1:59pm

paulmcshane wrote: »

Whats more important, WC2015 or the coming international season?

After the 13/14 season there'll be

3 November Internationals in Nov 2014
5 6N games in Feb/Mar 2015
2 or 3 RWC warm up games in Aug 2015

That's 10 or 11 games after next season before the RWC i.e. the 13/14 season is too early to be picking your team for the 2015 RWC.

Another way to look it is that in the 2010 6N none of Jonathan Davies, Toby Faletau, or Rhys Priestland were playing for Wales. Halfpenny was playing on the wing then too.

Mahatma Geansai · 20-07-2013 2:14pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

After the 13/14 season there'll be

3 November Internationals in Nov 2014
5 6N games in Feb/Mar 2015
2 or 3 RWC warm up games in Aug 2015

That's 10 or 11 games after next season before the RWC i.e. the 13/14 season is too early to be picking your team for the 2015 RWC.

Another way to look it is that in the 2010 6N none of Jonathan Davies, Toby Faletau, or Rhys Priestland were playing for Wales. Halfpenny was playing on the wing then too.

Those 10/11 games are loads if a centre partnership settles straight off the bat, but what if it doesn't? You've 10 games to give maybe 3 players a shot at 13 with different 12's inside them.

jm08 · 20-07-2013 2:19pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

After the 13/14 season there'll be

3 November Internationals in Nov 2014
5 6N games in Feb/Mar 2015
2 or 3 RWC warm up games in Aug 2015

That's 10 or 11 games after next season before the RWC i.e. the 13/14 season is too early to be picking your team for the 2015 RWC.

Another way to look it is that in the 2010 6N none of Jonathan Davies, Toby Faletau, or Rhys Priestland were playing for Wales. Halfpenny was playing on the wing then too.

Jonathan Davies got capped on the summer tour in 2009. He was dropped for the 2010 6Ns, but went on tour to NZ & Australia in 2010. He has 39 caps now and its really only on the Lions tour that he was rated. He had a very poor game against Ireland in this 6Ns.

Toby Faletau career mirrors Conor Murrays trajectory in that they both came to the fore in the warm-up games for the world cup. Many here didn't approve of Murray's quick promotion. Leigh 1/2penny has been around for about 5 years now.

Paul Smeenus · 20-07-2013 2:23pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Those 10/11 games are loads if a centre partnership settles straight off the bat, but what if it doesn't? You've 10 games to give maybe 3 players a shot at 13 with different 12's inside them.

This is important. We don't yet know who our next RWC 12 will be. And those 10/11 games can't all go to BOD's replacement. What ii our new 13 gets injured?

CatFromHue · 20-07-2013 2:54pm

jm08 wrote: »

Jonathan Davies got capped on the summer tour in 2009. He was dropped for the 2010 6Ns, but went on tour to NZ & Australia in 2010. He has 39 caps now and its really only on the Lions tour that he was rated. He had a very poor game against Ireland in this 6Ns.

Toby Faletau career mirrors Conor Murrays trajectory in that they both came to the fore in the warm-up games for the world cup. Many here didn't approve of Murray's quick promotion. Leigh 1/2penny has been around for about 5 years now.

My point was that the Welsh team in the 2010 6N didn't mirror the team that did so well in the RWC.

I think a winning team now is more important than picking players for the RWC now.

Swiwi. · 20-07-2013 4:52pm

Should Schmidt drop BOD? No

Should BOD play every minute of every test until he retires? No

Just needs a wee period of well-managed transition.

eire4 · 20-07-2013 8:48pm

O'Driscoll is still a brilliant player on both sides of the ball so no way should he be left out. Simple as that for me. Plus he is also a great leader. Maybe he doesn't start every game and is left out a few times to save the body so to speak. But no doubt for me I would want O'Driscoll on the field as much as possible next season.

Kayless · 20-07-2013 9:02pm

eire4 wrote: »

O'Driscoll is still a brilliant player on both sides of the ball so no way should he be left out. Simple as that for me. Plus he is also a great leader. Maybe he doesn't start every game and is left out a few times to save the body so to speak. But no doubt for me I would want O'Driscoll on the field as much as possible next season.

I think you hit the nail on the head, he is a great player/leader and someone we really need in our squad against teams like NZ, Aus, Wales And England. It also worth remembering that Joe is the type of coach that tends to build a team and I'm sure BOD himself know's he can't play every game and Joe is smart enough to know this as well, so I fully expect to see BOD's understudy/replacement going forward on show during the AI's and next years 6 nations as I really can't see BOD playing the Samoa, Scotland or Italy games

molloyjh · 20-07-2013 10:43pm

paulmcshane wrote: »

Basically the question should be do we think one season is enough to develop any of BOD's potential replacements to the point where they're up to playing at a World Cup. If not then they should be given the game time to reach the standard required, regardless of whether BOD's available or not.

Of course that doesn't mean dropping BOD altogether, but using him sparingly with his replacements getting enough significant gametime.

Whats more important, WC2015 or the coming international season?

I'm a bit torn to be honest.

I don't like this RWC cycle crap. If we're thinking like that then we're potentially looking to sacrifice a competition we have a strong chance of winning (the 2014 6Ns) for another competition 2 years away that we have a far smaller chance of winning. We have a summer tour next year, Autumn Internationals, the 2015 6Ns and the RWC warm-ups. That's 13-14 games. If we can't find a new centre pairing in that time-frame then we're in trouble. We need to get back to winning ways and soon. We need to stop the rot that's set in. The best 13 for that job is Drico. End of.

bilston · 20-07-2013 10:57pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

After the 13/14 season there'll be

3 November Internationals in Nov 2014
5 6N games in Feb/Mar 2015
2 or 3 RWC warm up games in Aug 2015

That's 10 or 11 games after next season before the RWC i.e. the 13/14 season is too early to be picking your team for the 2015 RWC.

Another way to look it is that in the 2010 6N none of Jonathan Davies, Toby Faletau, or Rhys Priestland were playing for Wales. Halfpenny was playing on the wing then too.

You can probably add the summer tour in 2014 (Argentina?) to the list as I can't see BOD going on that so that would be another 3 games.

Edit- Mollyj just mentioned the summer tour but anyway I agree it is enough time to find someone.

By the way for followers of Cricket Ashston Agar is Australia's 13th spinner since Shane Warne retired in 2007. The relevant point is that we could start replacing BOD now or in 12 months time or whenever, it's unlikely he will be adequately replaced for a long time. Remember 20 years separated Mike Gibson's retirement and BOD's debut, that's probably a fair reflection of how rare these guys are be it any sport.

CatFromHue · 20-07-2013 11:04pm

For all the talk of 13, what are we going to do at 12 is a bigger question in my eyes.

Hagz · 20-07-2013 11:09pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

For all the talk of 13, what are we going to do at 12 is a bigger question in my eyes.

Perhaps. I can't see Munster or Leinster providing the 12 for the next world cup. In saying that though, at Ulster, with Marshall, Olding and Farrell, you'd have to assume that whoever gets a hold of that jersey, is a bloody good player.

At Connacht, McSharry has impressed a lot of people despite only playing two seasons of pro rugby. His defence is arguably the best of any of the inside centres.

Podge_irl · 20-07-2013 11:10pm

If Marshall can stop injuring his head than he is the stand out candidate there.

As has been mentioned a few times, I think the Irish centre pairing is going to have a lot to do with who ends up at 12 and 13 for Ulster.

Buer · 20-07-2013 11:26pm

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Should Schmidt drop BOD? No

Should BOD play every minute of every test until he retires? No

Just needs a wee period of well-managed transition.

I'm sick of your sensible, oft ignored rational posts.

CatFromHue · 20-07-2013 11:30pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

If Marshall can stop injuring his head than he is the stand out candidate there.

As has been mentioned a few times, I think the Irish centre pairing is going to have a lot to do with who ends up at 12 and 13 for Ulster.

It's out of his hands about his head injury. For all the talk about BOD's head injury against France I genuinely thought Marshall was dead that day. He was out of it for so long.

Swiwi. · 20-07-2013 11:43pm

Buer wrote: »

I'm sick of your sensible, oft ignored rational posts.

May I kindly return the platitude?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 20-07-2013 11:44pm

Buer wrote: »

I'm sick of your sensible, oft ignored rational posts.

Le vieux renard wrote: »

May I kindly return the platitude?

molloyjh · 20-07-2013 11:46pm

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Damn it. Beaten to the punch line by a matter seconds. Curse you Ugo!

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 20-07-2013 11:48pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Damn it. Beaten to the punch line by a matter seconds. Curse you Ugo!

Been waiting a while to use that one!

Swiwi. · 20-07-2013 11:49pm

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I'm the young'un, anyway!

Buer · 21-07-2013 12:50am

.ak · 21-07-2013 12:07pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

For all the talk of 13, what are we going to do at 12 is a bigger question in my eyes.

Is it? Marshall has it nailed on for me.

Leinster7 · 21-07-2013 3:12pm

Its called a 'skip' pass....

Earls...? please....

danthefan · 21-07-2013 3:22pm

.ak wrote: »

Is it? Marshall has it nailed on for me.

There's a handful of younger guys about now that the long term prospects at 12 look fairly secure. Marshall, Olding, JJ, and behind them again Daly in the Leinster academy looks a great prospect.

.ak · 21-07-2013 3:32pm

Yep. Marshall's at the top of the list. Surprisingly, about 18 months ago we had no answer for 12, with maybe only McFadden in the running to take up Darce's role, but now there's plenty of prospects. So much so that Ferg probably won't get a look in.

Marshall has all the natural ability, talent, size and potential to fill the role, he just needs more game time to iron out the unforced errors.

Mahatma Geansai · 21-07-2013 3:43pm

.ak wrote: »

Yep. Marshall's at the top of the list. Surprisingly, about 18 months ago we had no answer for 12, with maybe only McFadden in the running to take up Darce's role, but now there's plenty of prospects. So much so that Ferg probably won't get a look in.

Marshall has all the natural ability, talent, size and potential to fill the role, he just needs more game time to iron out the unforced errors.

He might want to wear some sort of helmet too.

.ak · 21-07-2013 3:45pm

Yeah, that's obviously a big thing. But I have a feeling we saw so many concussions from him because he was brought back too early from concussion in the first place.

Should Schmidt drop BOD?

Comments