Male TD pulls female colleague into his lap – in the Dáil chamber

Legs.Eleven

Article published in The Guardian about it. Excellently written piece imo.

The Ireland abortion debate, summed up in one disrespectful gesture

Tom Barry pulling Áine Collins on to his lap at the Dáil sums up the farce and lack of empathy inherent in the debate



On Thursday night, 21 years since the Irish supreme court ruled that a suicidal teenage rape victim had the right to an abortion, the government finally passed abortion legislation. Sorry, I mean it passed "protection of life during pregnancy" legislation. There is no abortion bill. Oh, and the bill defines unborn life as a fertilised egg from implantation to birth. And, no, for those of you who sense a slight imbalance in the framing of the law, the government has no plans to discuss a "protection of choice during pregnancy" bill any time soon.
The new law fails to account for cases of rape or incest, for cases where the health (as opposed to the life) of a woman is at risk, or for cases of fatal foetal abnormality. As the abortion rights campaign points out, the wording is so restrictive that it's doubtful whether it would enable a suicidal teenage rape victim to access abortion at all.
On Wednesday at 3am in Dáil Éireann, during the marathon debate that passed the historic bill, a Fine Gael teachta dála (member of parliament), Tom Barry, pulled a female colleague, Áine Collins, on to his lap. Watch the video. Disturbing or your money back. The next day, minister for jobs Richard Bruton requested that this inappropriate incident not be allowed to sidetrack the crucial work under way in Leinster House. In other words: would ye ever shut up?
But I can't shut up. Because #lapgate – as it has come to be (over) affectionately known – is the Irish abortion debate. I can't think of a gesture that more perfectly represents the relationship between women's bodies and the Irish body politic.
First and foremost, #lapgate is high farce. It is so completely farcical for a female TD to be groped by a male colleague during a debate on reproductive rights that it's hard to believe the incident hadn't been scripted. It's as farcical as the "Rosary Crusade For Ireland" protest outside the Dáil, which is itself so farcical that the co-writer of Father Ted has given pro-choice campaigners full permission to use as many Craggy Island references as they need. It's as farcical as the self-same TD Tom Barry publicly explaining that he's voting for the bill in order to prevent women accessing terminations, and, in this vein, writing to Cardinal Seán Brady to make sure he won't be excommunicated. In the meantime, 4,000 women annually, for myriad reasons – some personal, some practical, some painful – travel to the UK to access the abortions that they need.
The reaction from the gents in the chamber is symbolic too. Watch the two men standing directly in front of TD Barry. Oh they see all right, but they pass no remarks. Nothing going on here. Business as usual.
And Fine Gael's reflex reaction to #lapgate? It was "silly". As general secretary Tom Curran explains, before party spokespeople took the time to watch the video or, presumably, to talk to the woman involved, their "instinctive characterisation" of the incident was "horseplay involving two people". When it became apparent that TD Barry's oh-so subtle advances had not been welcome, they condescended to deem the incident unacceptable. But it's the gut reaction I'm interested in, because it too is frighteningly symbolic.
Declaring an incident where a male colleague pulls a female colleague onto his lap "silly horseplay" displays the same lack of ability to walk in women's shoes as does the laughably restrictive abortion legislation passed on Friday. Less than one in six TDs are female – a fact which, as any woman operating within a predominantly male system will tell you, creates pressure to be taken seriously. And I don't know TD Collins, but my first feeling on watching the video was not "Horseplay! Sure wasn't she mad up for a bit of an auld impromptu lapdance"; it was "Jesus, she must be mortified." Because I am capable of basic human empathy.
This blindness to what it is like to be a woman – to the feeling of being outnumbered 5 to 1 by male colleagues, or to the realities of existing in a body that gets pregnant – defines both the new Irish pregnancy legislation and patriarchal attitudes to women in the Republic more generally. There are people in Ireland who believe that, if granted access to safe, legal abortion, women would terminate in order to look good on the beach.
The reaction of a number of female TDs to #lapgate was to say that there needs to be more women in Irish politics. This solution might also be applied to Irish abortion rights. If more than 15% of our TDs were female, there would likely be people in the house who actually know what it is like to need a termination, and can express that reality in human terms. But while women's experiences of sexism in politics are dismissed as silly, and while the reproductive decisions Irish women make are vilified and criminalised, this solution remains circular. In a country where the choices that thousands of women make in relation to their bodies are illegal, what real respect can there be for women – immoral, criminal creatures – in the body politic? Without respect, we can't gain representation: the politics of our bodies are reduced to horseplay, and power is left in the patriarchy's lap.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/12/ireland-abortion-debate-tom-barry-aine-collins

GalwayGuy2

People need to stop looking at this as a man vs woman issue. This is about respect. Respect for a colleague, respect for the job and respect for the people of this country.

Eh, to be a little bit snarky, the thread title is "Male TD pulls female colleague into his lap".

And you do have comments saying it's an example of all the governments attitudes towards women...

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a good thing to do by any definition.

clairefontaine

It is unprofessional and shows contempt for the public office.

Wibbs

Neeson, you were clearly warned not to post again in this thread and clearly you were aware of that considering your post, so take a weeks break from this forum.

Politicians treating Dáil Éireann with contempt.

A faux-enraged public donning their chain mail, mounting their steed and charging forth, waving pitchforks aloft.


Nothing we haven't seen before, nor won't see again.

Meangadh

Deleted User wrote: »

Politicians treating Dáil Éireann with contempt.

A faux-enraged public donning their chain mail, mounting their steed and charging forth, waving pitchforks aloft.


Nothing we haven't seen before, nor won't see again.

There's nothing faux about my rage. I'm genuinely livid over this. I'm not one to get caught up in politics much to be honest, but the very fact that there were women outside that building who were protesting over literally a matter of life or death (regardless of what side of the debate they are on) whilst there were so-called leaders in there cavorting and boozing shows that there are a number of politicians in Dáil Éireann who couldn't give a feck about the importance of the decisions they were making. You're talking people's lives here. And yet they deem it appropriate to go to the pub.

There are no pitch forks here. Disgust, disappointment, and actually quite lot of sadness given that this is such a difficult topic for so many people- men included- alright. But no, no pitchforks at all.

Legs.Eleven

Funnily enough, the disgust at the behaviour of that gombeen in parliament is probably the one thing that unites pro-choice and pro-lifers.

Laneyh

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

some pile of ****e being discussed in this thread

Politicians

Aidric

The Guardian piece was well drafted but I don't agree with the assertion that there is a patriarchal attitude towards women in Ireland.

This incident was embarrassing and damaging for the image of Irish politics. Far more damaging, however, was the reports of TD's drinking during the course of this landmark debate.

astrofool

Aidric wrote: »

The Guardian piece was well drafted but I don't agree with the assertion that there is a patriarchal attitude towards women in Ireland.

This incident was embarrassing and damaging for the image of Irish politics. Far more damaging, however, was the reports of TD's drinking during the course of this landmark debate.

Ah now, most TD's were under party orders, they were there to press a button they were told to press, nothing more, nothing less.

While it's embarrassing, I'd say that the govt. is ecstatic that this is making the news rather than the legislation itself, and the pro choice campaign can move onto the next battleground now that the x case has finally been legislated for (likely a referendum needed to go any further).

Laneyh

Yeah I don't think it has that much to do with a patriarchal attitude towards women in Ireland or even the incidence of sexism in the workplace / politics.

It boils down to an infantile attitude to work and responsibilities. Tom Barry was the one who made a show of himself on this occasion but the lack of reaction from his colleagues was pretty telling.

Also, he was most certainly not the only one drinking and how anyone can justify drinking whilst working is beyond me.

Scarinae

This article appeared on the Independent website earlier – I’m not really sure what to make of it to be honest. I can kind of see what she means about people being outraged on Aine Collins’ behalf when she said herself that she wasn't annoyed, but I feel that she’s missed the point of why so many people are horrified – that this happened in the Dáil when there was such an important debate going on. I’m also not keen on the implication that women should just sit back and be groped without complaint, and that people who object to such treatment are just ‘angry women’

Sarah Carey: I've been groped several times but never made a fuss

Every now and then sanity prevails. Fine Gael TD Aine Collins has proven herself completely sane by trying to calm the Lapgate storm.

I was getting tired of women who weren't politicians and had never been groped pushing her around and telling her what to do. Collins has said that she has forgiven her colleague and friend Tom Barry for his inappropriate behaviour and just wants to move on.
In fact, a long list of female politicians, including Mary O'Rourke, have said that the best way of dealing with sexist behaviour was to ignore it and keep doing their jobs.
If that policy is good enough for them, why do other women, who aren't them and have never been in their position, judge them for not making a fuss?
You see, you might think that if it were you, you'd slap the guy or demand he be punished. But in life, we often think we'd do X in situation Y, but then it happens, and things don't work out the way you thought.
Possibly because I'm small and have a sense of humour, I've been on the receiving end of a bit of groping down the years. Every single time I've carried on as if absolutely nothing had happened.
I'm not talking about repeated offences or actual harassment. Just once-off lunges that always took place at some sort of social, at an event or overnight if work required travel.

Amnesia
The angry women say that my failure to complain enables men to believe they've done nothing wrong and repeat the offence. Logically that should be true, but in real life my voluntary amnesia worked out quite well.
Why do I ignore the wandering hands? For many reasons. Firstly, I'm really slow. You could meet me in the street and we'd have a chat. Three nights later I'd wake up and say, "Hang on a second! When she asked me if I was on my way to hairdresser, she really meant my hair was a mess. What a cow!"
Men have occasionally said something sexist to me, but I haven't reacted because it can honestly take a while for it to sink in. I might be raging that the fabulously witty put down only came into my head a day later. But the moment has passed.
The other thing is I hate scenes. Even if I do cop what's going on, my instinct is to avoid a row. In the face of conflict, I just keep smiling, remove the offending limb and create distance between me and the groper; perhaps rushing to the loo to compose myself.
If I didn't say anything the next day it was because I wish it never had happened, and therefore pretending it hadn't was an attractive out.
Then I realised that the lack of reaction was having unintended benefits. Firstly, I knew damn well that if I ran whingeing to HR about a co-worker, in the long run, I'd be resented for making the fuss.
Also, you may actually like the person involved, and know there was no malice, as with Collins and Barry.
Secondly, I always found that the groper, rather than thinking he'd done nothing wrong, knew well he'd overstepped the mark and was incredibly grateful to me for not complaining.

Power
Rather than him having power physically over me, I ended up having psychological power over him and reaped the rewards.
To the outragerati who think this is appalling, let me just say this.
In my experience, men who like women have never been a problem for me. It's the men who hate women you need to watch out for.
I've been psychologically harassed and bullied, taken lower pay than male colleagues and been in tears in offices over discrimination.
The perpetrator was never the harmless git who got a bit excited with drink taken.
The woman-hating creep in charge? He was the problem.

kylith

was incredibly grateful to me for not complaining.

Rather than him having power physically over me, I ended up having psychological power over him and reaped the rewards.

Is she saying that she blackmails people who have sexually assaulted her?

I find the entire piece odious. We should sit there and let men fondle us because we shouldn't cause a scene, and they'll be grateful and give us things afterward?

I. Feel. Sick.

I was fondled by a relative who wasn't much older than me when I was about 13. I didn't do anything because I didn't want to start a row. I received preferential treatment afterwards. I still feel disgusted by it. If a person tried it with me now I'd like to think I'd break their face and damn the consequences.

I hate to use the term 'rape culture' but if there's one thing that enables it it's a woman telling other women to shut up, sit down, and let the men feel them up.

clairefontaine

Scarinae wrote: »

This article appeared on the Independent website earlier – I’m not really sure what to make of it to be honest. I can kind of see what she means about people being outraged on Aine Collins’ behalf when she said herself that she wasn't annoyed, but I feel that she’s missed the point of why so many people are horrified – that this happened in the Dáil when there was such an important debate going on. I’m also not keen on the implication that women should just sit back and be groped without complaint, and that people who object to such treatment are just ‘angry women’

She's missing the point, which is it took place in the public office.

darkhorse

kylith wrote: »

I find the entire piece odious. We should sit there and let men fondle us because we shouldn't cause a scene, and they'll be grateful and give us things afterward?
I. Feel. Sick.
I hate to use the term 'rape culture' but if there's one thing that enables it it's a woman telling other women to shut up, sit down, and let the men feel them up.

I agree with everything you say. As a married man with a Daughter and three Grand-Daughters, I feel very perturbed with Ms Carey's article. I think that she does a huge dis-service to all the female population. The fact that she would/has carried on as if nothing happened, on an occasion of being groped (her words) should not be the subject of a news article (written by herself). What sort of message is that, that she is sending out. Lets just look at some of what she wrote:

Possibly because I'm small and have a sense of humour, I've been on the receiving end of a bit of groping down the years. Every single time I've carried on as if absolutely nothing had happened.
I'm not talking about repeated offences or actual harassment. Just once-off lunges that always took place at some sort of social, at an event or overnight if work required travel.

Why do I ignore the wandering hands? For many reasons.

What I would like very much to ask her, is, how would she feel, if the person that groped her, then went on an hour or two later and seriously sexually assaulted a young lady.

On the other hand, you could just read the article and think to yourself, that it may just a bit of sensationalism, in order to sell some papers. After all, she is no stranger to telling a few porkies.

I'm humiliated and shamed says journalist Carey who admitted lying ...

Clarehobo

Scarinae wrote: »

This article appeared on the Independent website earlier – I’m not really sure what to make of it to be honest. I can kind of see what she means about people being outraged on Aine Collins’ behalf when she said herself that she wasn't annoyed, but I feel that she’s missed the point of why so many people are horrified – that this happened in the Dáil when there was such an important debate going on. I’m also not keen on the implication that women should just sit back and be groped without complaint, and that people who object to such treatment are just ‘angry women’

Jesus H Christ - that journalist is a total fool.
I vomited a little in my mouth when I read the opening statement:

Every now and then sanity prevails. Fine Gael TD Aine Collins has proven herself completely sane by trying to calm the Lapgate storm.

So, she would have been insane if she had complained??? She is well within her rights to complain if she wants to.

And the worst is I have read a few articles where it is stated that Aine Collins was not happy about the incident or the party branding it as horseplay.

All Sarah Carey needed to do was talk to the woman before giving out about people being outraged on Aine Collins' behalf or at least use google.

The Belfast Telegraph
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/td-tom-barry-admits-hed-been-drinking-when-he-put-colleague-aine-collins-on-his-lap-29413954.html

A number of female Fine Gael politicians are understood to have approached Ms Collins and asked if she wanted any further action taken – but she declined.

A colleague said: "She is embarrassed and just wants it to go away."

The Mirror
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/aine-collins-offended-lapgate-incident-2059118

She said: "That is the one thing that I take huge offence to because it was not horseplay.

"Tom Curran our General Secretary came out and made a very, very strong statement saying it definitely wasn’t horseplay."

She also said that the incident isn't typical of what happens in Leinster House.

Speaking on Newstalk, she said: "“It was unfortunate, it was disrespectful and it shouldn’t have happened. Deputy Barry apologised and I accepted that apology.

The Examiner
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/collins-lapgate-not-typical-of-dail-behaviour-600741.html

“It was unfortunate, it was disrespectful and it shouldn’t have happened," she said.

“Deputy Barry apologised and I accepted that apology."

She did say however that she took offence to the incident initially being described as "horseplay" by Fine Gael.

darkhorse wrote: »

I agree with everything you say. As a married man with a Daughter and three Grand-Daughters, I feel very perturbed with Ms Carey's article. I think that she does a huge dis-service to all the female population. The fact that she would/has carried on as if nothing happened, on an occasion of being groped (her words) should not be the subject of a news article (written by herself). What sort of message is that, that she is sending out.

And I agree as well - I have 5 amazing nieces who are all capable of great things in their own right. I don't want them having to grow up in a world where they are expected to endure physical abuse and to shut up in order to save face. I go to work, I get paid, I go home. As I have said previously, every person I work with is respectful - I hate to think that people are expected to endure anything less in their working environments.

I hate the fact that this is being dismissed as people getting offended on her behalf. She was offended. She was not a willing participant. Our society has a long way to go...

iwantmydinner

If this is the same Sarah Carey who presents a show on Newstalk on Saturday afternoons, then I'm not one bit surprised at that article. Disgusted, but not surprised. I had to switch off the radio last Saturday as she and her guests were discussing the incident - the discussion went along the same lines as the article:

Woman is groped in the workplace.

She is "dignified" if she pretends it didn't happen, and the groper gets away with it.

She is a whingey, over-sensitive member of the "outragerati" if she complains about the inappropriate behaviour. Complaining to HR or confronting the groper was also described as "making a fuss".

What the actual f*ck.

kylith

darkhorse wrote: »

I agree with everything you say. As a married man with a Daughter and three Grand-Daughters, I feel very perturbed with Ms Carey's article. I think that she does a huge dis-service to all the female population. The fact that she would/has carried on as if nothing happened, on an occasion of being groped (her words) should not be the subject of a news article (written by herself). What sort of message is that, that she is sending out. Lets just look at some of what she wrote:

Possibly because I'm small and have a sense of humour, I've been on the receiving end of a bit of groping down the years. Every single time I've carried on as if absolutely nothing had happened.
I'm not talking about repeated offences or actual harassment. Just once-off lunges that always took place at some sort of social, at an event or overnight if work required travel.

Why do I ignore the wandering hands? For many reasons.

What I would like very much to ask her, is, how would she feel, if the person that groped her, then went on an hour or two later and seriously sexually assaulted a young lady.

I'd like to ask her if she would say the same if she saw her daughter or her niece being fondled in public. The 'Ah, sure it's only a bit of craic' would probably go out the window when faced with the upset caused to someone she loved.

coffee_cake

kylith wrote: »

I'd like to ask her if she would say the same if she saw her daughter or her niece being fondled in public. The 'Ah, sure it's only a bit of craic' would probably go out the window when faced with the upset caused to someone she loved.

It'd be worse again if she maintained the same attitude

The piece is tripe

MaxWig

darkhorse wrote: »

What I would like very much to ask her, is, how would she feel, if the person that groped her, then went on an hour or two later and seriously sexually assaulted a young lady.

I reckon she'd say something along the lines of 'Well, I didn't see that coming - how could I?'

There is no link between the incident in the Dáil and rape.

None, except in the sense that they were human, and rapists are human also.

Storm in a teacup.

And I imagine the apology was simply 'boxing clever', to avoid the loony brigade implying he is a rapist in waiting.

Fondling? What is fondling exactly?

Ash.J.Williams

MaxWig wrote: »

I reckon she'd say something along the lines of 'Well, I didn't see that coming - how could I?'

There is no link between the incident in the Dáil and rape.

None, except in the sense that they were human, and rapists are human also.

Storm in a teacup.

And I imagine the apology was simply 'boxing clever', to avoid the loony brigade implying he is a rapist in waiting.

Fondling? What is fondling exactly?

holding testicals in the hand and massaging them with the fingers?

HansHolzel

Liathróidí wouldn't the first things to come to mind if I had to define fondling.

kylith

MaxWig wrote: »

Fondling? What is fondling exactly?

Freedictionary.com:

To handle, stroke, or caress lovingly

So you can see why it would be unwelcome if unwanted.

Ash.J.Williams

HansHolzel wrote: »

Liathróidí wouldn't the first things to come to mind if I had to define fondling.

well that's what me doctor calls it!

HansHolzel

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

well that's what me doctor calls it!

the plot thickens

MaxWig

kylith wrote: »

Freedictionary.com:

To handle, stroke, or caress lovingly

So you can see why it would be unwelcome if unwanted.

Indeed, my point is simply that I didn't see much fondling in the Dail

kylith

MaxWig wrote: »

Indeed, my point is simply that I didn't see much fondling in the Dail

I believe that we're now discussing the newspaper article which basically tells women to be quiet and sit there and take it.

cloudatlas

Of course I found the article to be reprehensible and stupid. I hope this doesn't anger anyone but the sad fact is that women who are groped in the work place by a senior member of staff have to ask themselves a question. Do I want to stay in my job or do I want to go to h.r. take a case against the company and not have a job? That is the likely outcome, it is impossible to stay in a job whilst challenging the company.

Pepe LeFrits

Meangadh wrote: »

As I said though, even I can get over a bit of stupid behaviour. It's the drinking that really gets me. I can't understand how most people here are making more of the sexist slant to this event than the drinking. The man had consumed alcohol on the job for Christ's sake. How on earth is that acceptable?

Doesn't really bother me to be honest - it's not uncommon in a variety of professions, and it's not like they're airline pilots.

Of course, ideally you’d like your representatives not to have to drunk anything while conducting official business in the chamber, but with the way the Dáil works, particularly with the party whip, the vast majority of a TD’s real work goes on outside the chamber during different hours. Very little decision-making actually takes place in there. It’s mostly where TDs get a little bit of air time, be seen to be present and occasionally get to make a speech; it’s a sham really. They go in, cast a vote which has long since been decided and leave. They could be legless and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference.

I think a lot of TDs go into Dáíl Eireann with heady notions and a great deal of reverence, but it tends to get eroded over time by the sheer dysfunctionality of the place.

username123

cloudatlas wrote: »

Of course I found the article to be reprehensible and stupid. I hope this doesn't anger anyone but the sad fact is that women who are groped in the work place by a senior member of staff have to ask themselves a question. Do I want to stay in my job or do I want to go to h.r. take a case against the company and not have a job? That is the likely outcome, it is impossible to stay in a job whilst challenging the company.

Actually there is a third option:
Do I just quietly hand in my notice and look for a new job but not say anything in case I have no reference for the new job.

And that is what happens in a lot of cases I am sure.