Male TD pulls female colleague into his lap – in the Dáil chamber

I think it's pretty simple. If you wouldn't do it to a man, don't do it to a woman.

Equality in the workplace after all.

Neeson

darkhorse wrote: »

You were doing great, but ya had to keep going after your first sentence.

This is it. You can't be doing that in the workplace anywhere I suppose but I'd say it happens.

I mean would people be wildly offended if the seen others do it randomly once in their office during their break? I wouldn't. I'd barely pass any remarks. That doesn't mean I think women should be bate up or anything by the way!

Doesn't look like Peter Matthews was too disturbed by it anyway. I supoose we'd agree it isn't acceptable behaviour in a working environment and there'd be rules. But wouldn't the workplace be very stiff without a bit of craic. Of course you'll come back and say you can do it without grabbing someone but jaysus we're just going in circles here.

Anyway. I'm at a loss. You shouldn't do it in the workplace but this is blown out of proportion. A bit of a one day wonder it was. Old story. Not news.

Ash.J.Williams

the only person who will judge right or wrong on this matter is the ministers wife!

Legs.Eleven

Timmyctc wrote: »

On their break. They are humans too ya know. Maybe they just didnt consider they'd still be recorded.

They're not staff on their break in Tescos who've just clocked out to go to McDonalds for their lunch, they're politicians representing the country and should act respectfully and with some professionalism while at work, particularly during such an important debate as this. It gives the impression that they couldn't give a flying fook. Just because they're on a break doesn't mean they should be allowed to do as they please. They're in parliament deciding on a matter of huge importance to women in this country.

username123

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why did you change the person to his wife? If he pulled a female friend onto his lap at a BBQ would that make his sexist? I don't think many people have said it's acceptable behaviour.

To illustrate that situations do make a difference. I dont care how he behaves in a social situation with his wife or his female friends or indeed his male friends. Although personally none of my male friends would think it appropriate to make any kind of a grab at me because they know it would be offensive to me.

Do you think he would pull a male friend onto his lap at a BBQ? Again, I dont.

Its sexist because he did it to a women because she is a woman. And he thought he could get away with that. Its inappropriate work place behaviour regardless of whether it was a man or a woman.

It is belittling for anyone to be treated like that. As an object to be grabbed or dragged at will.

Neeson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think it's pretty simple. If you wouldn't do it to a man, don't do it to a woman.

Equality in the workplace after all.

But sure what about equality all the time. Isn't that the way as well? But it doesn't mean men behave the same way towards men as they do with women and women don't behave with men the same way they do toward other women.

It depends on the people involved. Everyone is different I suppose.

iwantmydinner

It was hugely inappropriate. I'm not sure how anyone can see fit to argue otherwise.

Chucky the tree

username123 wrote: »

To illustrate that situations do make a difference. I dont care how he behaves in a social situation with his wife or his female friends or indeed his male friends. Although personally none of my male friends would think it appropriate to make any kind of a grab at me because they know it would be offensive to me.

Do you think he would pull a male friend onto his lap at a BBQ? Again, I dont.

Its sexist because he did it to a women because she is a woman. And he thought he could get away with that. Its inappropriate work place behaviour regardless of whether it was a man or a woman.

It is belittling for anyone to be treated like that. As an object to be grabbed or dragged at will.

Again, I don't think I'm sexist because I kiss female friends on the check but not males, obviously you do. At the end of the day everyone has different opinions though.

username123

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Again, I don't think I'm sexist because I kiss female friends on the check but not males, obviously you do. At the end of the day everyone has different opinions though.

As a matter of interest why do you kiss female friends and not male?

wexie

This obviously is very inappropriate, regardless of what their relationship is they are public representatives and should be fully aware they are on camera.

Personally though what I find much more disturbing is that his excuse doesn't cause more outrage :

Tom Barry TD (FG) has also admitted that he had been drinking before the incident – but insisted he wasn’t drinking excessively.
“I went to the Dail bar but I wasn’t drinking excessively. There was nothing pre-meditated, it was stupid, it was disrespectful,” he said.

How in the name of everything that is good and holy is it deemed acceptable for politicians to be drinking while debating something of quite such importance. How is it even remotely acceptible they drink while working altogether?

It certainly wouldn't be considered appropriate for any other walk of life that I'm aware off. Other than barstaff perhaps.

Disgusting wastes of space these 'politicians' are.

Gotham

This topic is not about sexism. Making it into one only shows one's ignorance.
Unprofessional? Probably. Sexist? No.
Imagine a world full of gay males or females and see how everything is not as sexist as it may seem.

Neeson

Neeson wrote: »

But sure what about equality all the time. Isn't that the way as well? But it doesn't mean men behave the same way towards men as they do with women and women don't behave with men the same way they do toward other women.

It depends on the people involved. Everyone is different I suppose.

Yes. Equality at all times. Is it very difficult to see past genitalia that we're all human and pretty much the same?

username123

Gotham wrote: »

This topic is not about sexism. Making it into one only shows one's ignorance.
Unprofessional? Probably. Sexist? No.
Imagine a world full of gay males or females and see how everything is not as sexist as it may seem.

I dont even know what this means, what has sexual preference got to do with sexual equality?

Chucky the tree

username123 wrote: »

As a matter of interest why do you kiss female friends and not male?

My male friends wouldn't be comfortable with it.

Gotham

username123 wrote: »

I dont even know what this means, what has sexual preference got to do with sexual equality?

Imagine a whole world where everyone is a gay man, women don't exist.
The majority of "sexist" things men now do are no longer sexist, but they dont stop doing it. Why is that? Because sex has nothing to do with most of it, it has to do with attraction, or because of neither.

Suddenly this dail case is no longer about sexism. Why? Because it never was.

username123

Chucky the tree wrote: »

My male friends wouldn't be comfortable with it.

Are your female friends?

While you personally may feel you are not being sexist, treating women differently to men is sexist. We live in a Western culture. Culture generally dictates greeting and salutation behaviour. So while your behaviour may be more reflective of the culture you live in rather than your personal thoughts on it - Western culture is a sexist culture.

I either kiss or dont kiss everyone, I dont distinguish who I cheek kiss based on gender.

Clarehobo

Gotham wrote: »

This topic is not about sexism. Making it into one only shows one's ignorance.
Unprofessional? Probably. Sexist? No.
Imagine a world full of gay males or females and see how everything is not as sexist as it may seem.

This is about unprofessional behaviour.
If the world was full of gay males or females and this happened, it would still be the same issue: unsolicited, unwanted attention in the workplace.
If he had pulled a male colleague into his lap I would still have the same objection to the behaviour.

I saw a tweet yesterday about it:
What is the difference between the Dáil and a lap dancing club? In a lap dancing club you can't touch the girls...

This is our national parliament that this joke is being circulated about. The same place where they are talking about introducing gender quotas because there are not enough women.

Hitchens

username123 wrote: »

Are your female friends?

While you personally may feel you are not being sexist, treating women differently to men is sexist. We live in a Western culture. Culture generally dictates greeting and salutation behaviour. So while your behaviour may be more reflective of the culture you live in rather than your personal thoughts on it - Western culture is a sexist culture.

I either kiss or dont kiss everyone, I dont distinguish who I cheek kiss based on gender.

is it ok to kiss a short bald male friend on the top of the head?

Gotham

Clarehobo wrote: »

This is about unprofessional behaviour.
If the world was full of gay males or females and this happened, it would still be the same issue: unsolicited, unwanted attention in the workplace.
If he had pulled a male colleague into his lap I would still have the same objection to the behaviour.

I agree, my point is directed to the people in the thread that claim otherwise.

username123

Gotham wrote: »

Imagine a whole world where everyone is a gay man, women don't exist.
The majority of things men now do are no longer sexist, but they dont stop doing it. Why is that? Because sex has nothing to do with most of it, it has to do with attraction, or because of neither.

This is completely incoherent. Sexism wouldnt exist because 2 sexes would no longer exist. I dont understand what you mean by

Gotham wrote: »

The majority of things men now do are no longer sexist, but they dont stop doing it.

Are you saying that male behaviour is sexist the majority of the time? What things do you mean? Women can be sexist too you know? Its not exclusively a male trait.

What examples can you give to support this theory?

Chucky the tree

username123 wrote: »

Are your female friends?

While you personally may feel you are not being sexist, treating women differently to men is sexist. We live in a Western culture. Culture generally dictates greeting and salutation behaviour. So while your behaviour may be more reflective of the culture you live in rather than your personal thoughts on it - Western culture is a sexist culture.

I either kiss or dont kiss everyone, I dont distinguish who I cheek kiss based on gender.

I presume so since they were the ones to initiate it. You are obviously one of the few who treats everyone completely equally, I do find that hard to believe though.

Ash.J.Williams

wexie wrote: »

This obviously is very inappropriate, regardless of what their relationship is they are public representatives and should be fully aware they are on camera.

Personally though what I find much more disturbing is that his excuse doesn't cause more outrage :

Tom Barry TD (FG) has also admitted that he had been drinking before the incident – but insisted he wasn’t drinking excessively.
“I went to the Dail bar but I wasn’t drinking excessively. There was nothing pre-meditated, it was stupid, it was disrespectful,” he said.

How in the name of everything that is good and holy is it deemed acceptable for politicians to be drinking while debating something of quite such importance. How is it even remotely acceptible they drink while working altogether?

It certainly wouldn't be considered appropriate for any other walk of life that I'm aware off. Other than barstaff perhaps.

Disgusting wastes of space these 'politicians' are.

ah sure it's the irish having the craic ..ah sure it's only a drink and a bit of horseplay as we ammend our countries laws...in our house of government

username123

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I presume so since they were the ones to initiate it. You are obviously one of the few who treats everyone completely equally, I do find that hard to believe though.

I think its probably easier in our culture as a woman to treat everyone equally actually.

Gotham

username123 wrote: »

This is completely incoherent. Sexism wouldnt exist because 2 sexes would no longer exist. I dont understand what you mean by
Are you saying that male behaviour is sexist the majority of the time? What things do you mean? Women can be sexist too you know? Its not exclusively a male trait.

What examples can you give to support this theory?

Obviously sexism can be done by anyone. But not everything claimed as sexism is obviously not-sexist.
Slapping is a great example for this gay-world-theory, lets analyse what might happen in a nightclub in a common week. At one point, a:

A) Woman slaps a man.
Woman slaps a woman.
C) Man slaps a woman.
D) Man slaps a man.

A - People stand around, maybe laugh.
C - Man will most likely be demonised and kicked out.
B / D - People might stand and watch.

Take each of these scenarios, now make the world gay and change the sexes around a few times (only one sex per universe). Every single combination favours scenario (A). There is a good chance that scenario A has some sexist undertones. Every scenario is more favorable than C by a significant amount.

Chucky the tree

username123 wrote: »

I think its probably easier in our culture as a woman to treat everyone equally actually.

It's certainly easier, but I still think it's very rare to see.

username123

Gotham wrote: »

Obviously sexism can be done by anyone. But not everything claimed as sexism is obviously not sexist.
Slapping is a great example for this gay-world-theory, lets analyse what might happen in a nightclub in a common week. At one point, a:

A) Woman slaps a man.
Woman slaps a woman.
C) Man slaps a woman.
D) Man slaps a man.

A - People stand around, maybe laugh.
C - Man will most likely be demonised and kicked out.
B / D - People might stand and watch.

Take each of these scenarios, now make the world gay and change the sexes around a few times (only one sex per universe). Every single combination favours scenario (B). There is a good chance that scenario B has some sexist undertones.

Im sorry I dont understand the point you are trying to make here. All of these examples are bad behaviour, and its nothing to do with sexism, physical violence is never acceptable.

I dont understand the what you mean by

now make the world gay and change the sexes around a few times (only one sex per universe).

If you change the world to exclusively gay males as you suggested in your last post - there is only one scenario. A man hitting a man. This is wrong because of physical violence. You cannot have a man hitting a woman in this world so a man cannot behave in the same way as in your original example.

This has gone off topic and whatever you are trying to argue is totally incoherent to me.

Gotham

username123 wrote: »

Im sorry I dont understand the point you are trying to make here. All of these examples are bad behaviour, and its nothing to do with sexism, physical violence is never acceptable.

The bad behavior from the woman towards the man, is less stigmatised than the rest.
The man to the woman is more stigmatised.
That is the sexism.

username123

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It's certainly easier, but I still think it's very rare to see.

What I mean is, a woman can kiss both men and women and no one feels uncomfortable (as you say your male friends do). So a woman doesnt feel the need to split the cheek kissing by gender.

username123

Gotham wrote: »

The bad behavior from the woman towards the man, is less stigmatised than the rest.
The man to the woman is more stigmatised.
That is the sexism.

Where are you getting this from? It is equally bad for the woman to hit the man as the man to hit the woman. Both are stigmatised.

Gotham

username123 wrote: »

Where are you getting this from? It is equally bad for the woman to hit the man as the man to hit the woman. Both are stigmatised.

This is just plain incorrect. I can only guess you've never seen these things happen.