Shannon airport

L1011

Carnacalla wrote: »

They really developed it from 3.6million to 1.4million didn't they?

Physical development. The terminal (and the CBP facility) didn't land from the sky one day.

The world is not out to get Shannon, or the west. However, the media there seem to think it is.

SNN has received very significant state support for nearly 80 years.

notharrypotter

L1011 wrote: »

SNN has received very significant state support for nearly 80 years.

Care to substantiate this?

JCX BXC

And Dublin hasn't? Shannon's passenger numbers were reduced to hardly anything. This is because of the DAA, no one else.

L1011

notharrypotter wrote: »

Care to substantiate this?

Airport constructed, free zone established around it to try provide it with native traffic

Shannon stop-over retained for decades when not actually required anymore, due to modern airliners. Further retained in a watered-down manner when it became obvious that none of the airlines had any desire to keep it.

Absolutely massive debt write off.

Carnacalla wrote: »

And Dublin hasn't? Shannon's passenger numbers were reduced to hardly anything. This is because of the DAA, no one else.

What Dublin has or hasn't had is irrelevant - there aren't people screeching about it not being supported. Distraction tactic.

The DAA did not end the stopover, which had the largest impact of anything. The DAA did not collapse the economy or hike oil prices, causing massive drops in demand and massive increases in costs for airlines. The DAA did not build a motorway to Limerick and a motorway to Galway (and a bypass of Limerick), allowing cheap and frequent / all night buses to DUB.

What do you think the DAA did that caused this?

JCX BXC

€100m is not massive in the grand scheme of things. The DAA's stangle hold on Shannon probably caused this debt anyway, so I don't see why it shouldn't be retained.

Shannon Development is a new debt free entity that will pay dividends to the government on what profits they make, and they will make them.

L1011

Carnacalla wrote: »

The DAA's stangle hold on Shannon probably caused this debt anyway, so I don't see why it shouldn't be retained.

Again - how?

Beyond whataboutery and supposition, what are you going to suggest that the DAA "did" to Shannon to cause the debt? Other than allow a new terminal to be built, without which they'd currently be unable to attract more than the cheapest of LCCs and have no full CBP (likely meaning no TATL at all).

If the airport returns a dividend to the state within 5 years I'd be amazed - if it repays its debt writeoff within two decades (not even accounting for inflation or notional interest) I'd be astounded.

JCX BXC

L1011 wrote: »

What do you think the DAA did that caused this?

I cannot tell you the exact details, I do not have special information that no-one else can obtain, but its pretty obvious the DAA certainly didn't do anything to help Shannon. Passenger numbers just don't fall by that much due to the loss of the odd Transatlantic flight and an economic recession. The DAA appeared to be dis-intrested in the airport. They put no Investment into it in the latter years.

Last year, Shannon completely revamped the Duty free. They are also spending a further €1.6million this year. The reason they are doing this is because it was neglected by the DAA and is making a profit, something that the DAA couldn't do.

JCX BXC

L1011 wrote: »

have no full CBP (likely meaning no TATL at all).

Really? The CBP was not just the DAA being nice. It was as part of ending the stopover. CBP also doesn't make the difference between 6 TATL flights a day (In summer season) and 0 flights a day.

L1011

Carnacalla wrote: »

I'm unsure of the exact details, but its pretty obvious the DAA certainly didn't do anything to help Shannon. Passenger numbers just don't fall by that much due to the loss of the odd Transatlantic flight and an economic recession. The DAA appeared to be dis-intrested in the airport. They put no Investment into it in the latter years.

There are no "exact details" because, outside the minds of a few local journos and politicians, it didn't happen. Just because an airport authority has multiple airports doesn't mean it can force traffic to move from one to another and its not like DUB and ORK (and every other airport in Europe, basically) didn't lose large volumes of traffic over the years.

The airport had a completely new terminal in 2000 and a significant extension in 2008. How tight do you want to go with "latter years"?

Carnacalla wrote: »

Last year, Shannon completely revamped the Duty free. They are also spending a further €1.6million this year. The reason they are doing this is because it was neglected by the DAA and is making a profit, something that the DAA couldn't do.

The duty free was rebuilt in 2008. How do you know what profit it was or wasn't making prior to the separation?

Considering the DAA operate duty frees under contract for airports all over the world, I'd say that they had a better chance of making a profit from there than not.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Really? The CBP was not just the DAA being nice. It was as part of ending the stopover. CBP also doesn't make the difference between 6 TATL flights a day (In summer season) and 0 flights a day.

It being built was down to the DAA investing in both their airports with transatlantic flights and not due to the end of the stopover. Any logical development due to the end of the stopover would have been to build one in DUB solely - not in SNN first, as actually happened.

Without CBP there would be zero TATL flights a day, pure and simple. The drive to DUB would be less than the time wasted at immigration at the far end in many cases, particularly all summer.

notharrypotter

have no full CBP (likely meaning no TATL at all

They have CBP and strangely they had it before Dublin.

Airport constructed, free zone established around it to try provide it with native traffic

Nope.

Airport was developed (same as Gander and Prestwick) because of the lack of intercontinental capability.

The free zone came later to take advantage of the pre existing airport.

The airport had a completely new terminal in 2000 and a significant extension in 2008

Care to elaborate I know that the terminal was rebuilt in the last decade or so but what was the other development in 2008?

Shannon stop-over retained for decades when not actually required anymore, due to modern airliners. Further retained in a watered-down manner when it became obvious that none of the airlines had any desire to keep it.

The B720 that Aer Lingus got initially was a Trans Continental aircraft and had range issues.

The B747 started in 1971 at this stage it probably would have been incumbent on the Government to review things which they did.

In 1971, the US Civil Aeronautics Board announced that unless US planes were allowed to operate into Dublin Airport they proposed to ban Aer Lingus from landing in New York. Eventually an agreement was reached which allowed one US carrier, TWA, to service Dublin Airport through Shannon.

You are looking at a different Ireland with different strategic views from a comfortable middle class 2015 perspective.

On 2 October 1995, the Boeing 747 service ceased operations after twenty-five years of service. By that time, over eight million people had travelled across the Atlantic in Aer Lingus Boeing 747s

That is an average of 320,000 trans Atlantic passengers per year.
There was no massive "pent up" demand for trans Atlantic services during this time.

From 1990's things moved on again.

This was when the stopover was "adjusted".

More suitable aircraft in terms of size (A330 330 passengers vs B747 400), crew numbers (2 person cockpit and less cabin staff) and economics (lower fuel burn) came on stream.

At this stage the end was in sight for the stopover.

Also the concentration of services by Aer lingus on the trans Atlantic routes is a more recent development.

At one stage its "vision" turned east.

The strategic priorities of the Government too change and currently "market forces" are god but that will change again.


So

• There was a sound reason to build Shannon airport where it is as oppose to the curraghline
• Ireland Inc did things on the cheap and baught the wrong aircraft B72 vs B707
• The first proper aircraft did not arrive till 1971 (B747)
• No massive demand for trans Atlantic services from Irelanf over a 25 year period
• Stopover retained beyond its useful life

imurdaddy

Come on lads! Listen to the man us boggers down here contribute nothing to the economy and sure theres not past kildare worth seen! And its as handy for us drive to dublin when we can afford a honda 50! Its way easier than going to SNN

What ever ye say is rhetoric and lies and all his opinions as gospel because he doesn't read the clare champion. Only for the good aul yankie troops and there B52's pax numbers this year would have been the worst ever without the kind hand of DAA bailing us out! Lock the gates and turn off the lights we'll all move to dublin and our taxs might count then.

im off to foynes to get the yankie clipper once I find my tweed cap!

GCU Flexible Demeanour

imurdaddy wrote: »

Why would politicians and lobby groups for the midwest region give there backing to something that would damage the midwest?

I think what would be hoped is that politicians in the Mid West would see greater benefits from pursuit of a common interest. As it stands, Dublin Airport delivers more tourists to the West and does more to connect West of Ireland businesses to Europe and beyond than Shannon does.

Blind and destructive pursuit of Shannon Airport as an end in itself isn't actually a sound policy.

Carnacalla wrote: »

They really developed it from 3.6million to 1.4million didn't they?

How did it ever reach 3.6 million, if DAA control was so corrosive?

IIRC, the 3.6 million figure was achieved as a result of a cut-price deal with Ryanair, that SNN could hardly have afforded to offer without a financial backer. And, as SNN's commercial manager of the time admitted, the traffic was mostly outward; it wasn't an engine for bringing in tourists from abroad.

L1011 wrote: »

Without CBP there would be zero TATL flights a day, pure and simple. The drive to DUB would be less than the time wasted at immigration at the far end in many cases, particularly all summer.

In fairness, I'm not sure CBP is that big a deal. I'd suspect that the current traffic figures would, more or less, be achieved without it.

JCX BXC

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Dublin Airport delivers more tourists to the West and does more to connect West of Ireland businesses to Europe and beyond than Shannon does.

According to who? Your really pulling statistics out of your rear end now. Are you telling me that Shannon would maintain all the Multinationals they have if the airport closed tomorrow? Would Limerick keep theirs? Would Galway keep all theirs? No, not at all.

Blind and destructive pursuit of Shannon Airport as an end in itself isn't actually a sound policy.How did it ever reach 3.6 million, if DAA control was so corrosive?

Who's having the "blind and destructive pursuit of Shannon Airport"?


And sure they got it to 3.6 million, but the focus completely switched then and it plummeted, far more than it should have. Ryanair didnt account for even half over the 2.2million passengers lost.
What's the point of saying " oh it's fine that the passenger numbers are plummeting, not our fault, we got the numbers really high!"

Jamie2k9

According to who? Your really pulling statistics out of your rear end now. Are you telling me that Shannon would maintain all the Multinationals they have if the airport closed tomorrow? Would Limerick keep theirs? Would Galway keep all theirs? No, not at all.

Yes they would, only thing that would drive them away is tax changes.

JCX BXC

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes they would, only thing that would drive them away is tax changes.

That makes no sense! Companies are always talking about how important connectivity is to people. The companies "fly" away if the airport was to close. Either to Dublin or further afield.

Jamie2k9

Carnacalla wrote: »

That makes no sense! Companies are always talking about how important connectivity is to people. The companies "fly" away if the airport was to close. Either to Dublin or further afield.

It's impotent but wouldn't result in a pull out.

highlydebased

notharrypotter wrote:

Care to elaborate I know that the terminal was rebuilt in the last decade or so but what was the other development in 2008?

AFAIK 2008 was the construction for separation of arriving and departing pax and the new cbp facility

Van.Bosch

This may be controversial and I don't mean to troll but it seems to me that SNN really only prospered for geographic and political reasons in the past. As neither of these are still really there (although there is still political pressure and Lobby groups - which is normal as they are just looking out for their own area.) I'm amazed the airport is still as busy and can't see it ever hitting previous pax numbers unless they give FR another bumper deal.

JCX BXC

Think of Shannon as Limericks airport. It just better located to suck half the traffic from Galway. (Edit: and all of Clare's traffic )

You think Shannon's bad (its really not though), look at the un-nameable in Mayo.

Tenger

Im locking this thread as its turning into yet another descent into parish pump arguments. It will reopen in a day or two when you have all calmed down

Tenger

Thread is re-opened. Can we please look towards the present and future viability of SNN. Baseless and biased accusations towards/and from the SNN supporters do not add to this thread.
SNN is now an independant airport, it must stand on its own and hopefully the mgmt team will work towards growth rather than looking back and moaning about the change in aviation over the last 20 years. It has the facilities and the location to be viable. Lets hope it does so.

JCX BXC

Still no Manchester and Kaunas loaded in the Ryanair Schedule. Any reason why or are they just pending announcements for them airports?

highlydebased

Carnacalla wrote:

Still no Manchester and Kaunas loaded in the Ryanair Schedule. Any reason why or are they just pending announcements for them airports?

Patience is everything

imurdaddy

Carnacalla wrote: »

Still no Manchester and Kaunas loaded in the Ryanair Schedule. Any reason why or are they just pending announcements for them airports?

Might be dropped in favour of new routes? All thought Kaunas was doing well, not sure about Manchester?

we had a visit from Air Corps today PC-9 & AW139 its been a bit since iv spotted them at SNN.

JCX BXC

imurdaddy wrote: »

Might be dropped in favour of new routes? All thought Kaunas was doing well, not sure about Manchester?

we had a visit from Air Corps today PC-9 & AW139 its been a bit since iv spotted them at SNN.

Kaunas is doing very very well. Far better than expectations.
Manchester also doing very well.

roundymac

There is talk here in Cork that FR will announce a Beauvais route, will that mean transfering the SNN route. If not it is going to create an over supply of the Patis route, ie; Orkto CDG and Beauvais and SNN Beauvais,. Of course that maybe what FR wants, playing one off the other.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Carnacalla wrote: »

According to who?

Just to clarify a point of fact, the present situation is as I said.

http://www.wdc.ie/wp-content/uploads/reports_blueprint_tourism_development.pdf page 28

The vast majority of tourists enter Ireland through Dublin and Table 2.7 serves to highlight the importance of the road network in distributing visitors around the country. There is clearly scope to increase throughput at Knock, City of Derry, Shannon and other airports. However, it is likely that the majority of visitors to the west will continue to access the region from the East coast.

http://itic.ie/fileadmin/docs/New_Directions_-__Final.pdf page 4

Almost 7 out of every 10 overseas holiday visitors to the west currently arrive in Ireland via an east coast gateway. These holidaymakers account for 80% of overseas holiday bednights in the west.

The fact that most West of Ireland tourists enter the country from the East (which predominantly means Dublin Airport, as only 10% of tourists use the boat and only 4% cross over from Northern Ireland) can be read in any amount of ways. It could mean that Shannon has a ready-made market to break into. Or it could mean that tourists don't see any great benefit in travelling through Shannon.

But that is, as of now, how tourists get into the country.

JCX BXC

Interesting.

Maybe Shannon and Cork have the wrong focuses at the Minute. They should steal the Inbound traffic from Dublin rather than the outbound.

imurdaddy

Van.Bosch wrote: »

This may be controversial and I don't mean to troll but it seems to me that SNN really only prospered for geographic and political reasons in the past. As neither of these are still really there (although there is still political pressure and Lobby groups - which is normal as they are just looking out for their own area.) I'm amazed the airport is still as busy and can't see it ever hitting previous pax numbers unless they give FR another bumper deal.

Simply Shannon has a large catchment area serving clare, Galway, limerick, most of tipp, nort cork and nort kerry. Plus for transatlantic flights it serves the whole west coast.

Some posters would have you believe everyone is willing to travel to Dublin to save €50 that is simply not true! people want to use there local airport, but it needs routes if a destination I wish to visit is not served I have to look elsewhere to fly from! If it was true that we're all happy to travel to dublin to to save a few €€ passenger numbers would be declining instead of increasing.

Would someone from Dublin drive to shannon to save €50 on a flight?

JCX BXC

Kaunas and Manchester are now bookable for Winter 2015/16. No change from winter 2014/15.