Shannon airport

Nick Guats

Does it have a future ? knock will be booming in 2012 and shannon will be a ghosttown.I think something radical will have to be done to save shannon airport, Hand it over to ryanair imo.

lotusm

It has a future but will have to go private , lean and mean and keep the customer keen i think it is losing 8 to 10 million a year and that wont last with the taxpayer .. Did should be making a bigger deal of their pre clearence to the USA.. big advantage over cork on trans flights etc...

mikedragon32

I think this is more appropriate to the Aviation and Aircraft forum.

Moved from Travel.

highlydebased

Nick Guats wrote: »

Does it have a future ? knock will be booming in 2012 and shannon will be a ghosttown.I think something radical will have to be done to save shannon airport, Hand it over to ryanair imo.

Wait til Ryanair get fed up with Knock for whatever reason then it won't boom no more. Exactly what happened with Shannon.

Putting all your eggs in one basket is a terrible idea.

poteen

highlydebased wrote: »

Wait til Ryanair get fed up with Knock for whatever reason then it won't boom no more. Exactly what happened with Shannon.

Putting all your eggs in one basket is a terrible idea.

Totally agree with this. Ryanair use and abuse. For both airlines to survive they need more than ryanair. Shannons currentstate is a shame. Its such an important airport for the airline industry. Not sure privisation is the way forward either. Long haul services must be improved.

Neworder79

highlydebased wrote:

Putting all your eggs in one basket is a terrible idea.

poteen wrote:

Totally agree with this. Ryanair use and abuse.

Yes tut tut, they should know better and tell them to 'FR-off' next time an airline comes offering new routes and another 100,000 spending pax for the airport. That would make perfect commercial sense to a small airport trying to balance the books. KIR, LDY and ORK all must be totally crazy, and as for DUB!

Why have planes and passengers at all? Why not just go begging to the gubberment for vital funding every year, that strategy worked out so well for the neighbors.
...

Sorry to be sarcastic, but that just sounds like petty spite. We all know FR are an unpredictable bedfellow and has played rough at SNN and may do so again, but thats capitalism. The airports problems were down to several factors including FR scale back, nearby competition, legacy cost base issues, motorway links to Dublin and most of all a savage economic decline across the region and two closest cities compounded with recession in the main tourist markets.

No small airport will turn away routes no more than SNN did when FR came knocking, and will do so again if they agree favorable terms. Where would SNN be without the remaining 10 FR routes still in operation. Especially as Ryanair have the fares, aircraft and brand to bring in the numbers where others struggle to fill turboprops (several flights cancelled this week) or aren't even interested (main EU airlines).

And you may not have noticed that NOC don't have all their eggs in one basket with AerLingus, FlyBe, BMIBaby, Lufthansa and charter operators who would be happy to take up proven routes should the need arise (and the cost base suit), as BE did last week by restarting FR Leeds route.

highlydebased

Neworder79 wrote: »

Yes tut tut, they should know better and tell them to 'FR-off' next time an airline comes offering new routes and another 100,000 spending pax for the airport. That would make perfect commercial sense to a small airport trying to balance the books. KIR, LDY and ORK all must be totally crazy, and as for DUB!

Why have planes and passengers at all? Why not just go begging to the gubberment for vital funding every year, that strategy worked out so well for the neighbors.
...

Sorry to be sarcastic, but that just sounds like petty spite. We all know FR are an unpredictable bedfellow and has played rough at SNN and may do so again, but thats capitalism. The airports problems were down to several factors including FR scale back, nearby competition, legacy cost base issues, motorway links to Dublin and most of all a savage economic decline across the region and two closest cities compounded with recession in the main tourist markets.

No small airport will turn away routes no more than SNN did when FR came knocking, and will do so again if they agree favorable terms. Where would SNN be without the remaining 10 FR routes still in operation. Especially as Ryanair have the fares, aircraft and brand to bring in the numbers where others struggle to fill turboprops (several flights cancelled this week) or aren't even interested (main EU airlines).

And you may not have noticed that NOC don't have all their eggs in one basket with AerLingus, FlyBe, BMIBaby, Lufthansa and charter operators who would be happy to take up proven routes should the need arise (and the cost base suit), as BE did last week by restarting FR Leeds route.

Perhaps you should re-read my original post without your rose tinted glasses on.


I'm not saying anyone should turn away routes. I'm saying no airport should get into bed with Ryanair the way Shannon did. At the time Shannon only had a handful of other routes. Ryanair became agressive, expanded to 6 based units etc and chased Easyjet and Hapag Lloyd out. Ryanair upped and left. Nobody else was willing to operate from Shannon then, and nobody is willing to come operate now for fear Ryanair will return "guns blazing" as it were.

Shannon was right not to succumb to demands of free landings or whatever. It's supposed to be a commercial enterprise. The airport might well make no money at all from these operations aside from small ground handling monies. So, "offering the airport to Ryanair" like somebody else suggested here would be a bad idea. Something won't work out so they'll leave- leaving nothing at all.

If Ryanair finds some issue with Knock in the future (i.e wanting to land there for free) then they will up and leave. A Lufthansa weekly flight to Dusseldorf and a handful of flybe flights to the UK is not much to write home about.

Delancey

Realisitically Shannon has no future and never had a future - why was the Shannon stopover implemented ? To justify the existence of an airport that a small country like Ireland really had no need for.

foxylady5160

Shannon is the last spit stop to.states.when we had ash cloud and ne emergencies.it had been a god sent.it had t longest runway in europe.tested t concorde!they should capitalize on that.theres a lot going for Shannon!!!!!

Neworder79

Perhaps you should re-read my original post without your rose tinted glasses on...

Don't have any issue with what you say about Ryanairs history at Shannon, Ryanair have done the same at many airports including Knock - threatening to pull STN in the 90s and running Eazyjet off Gatwick in 2006.

But it seems that many on this forum are happier to console themselves with the hope that Ryanair will burn Knock than discuss Shannons issues in any constructive way. Sniffy digs about a "handful" of routes don't endere either. A handful of ATR routes are exactly what has dragged Shannon back from the brink in the last couple of years.

I really hope to see Shannon thriving again with a range of airlines and new management pushing it forward as the gateway to SW and Shannon region. It's not all gloom, they've maintained and grown some US routes and got back many of the lost UK routes. New charters starting in the last year and US troops have kept numbers and revenues up.

Irish Steve

Delancey wrote: »

Realisitically Shannon has no future and never had a future - why was the Shannon stopover implemented ? To justify the existence of an airport that a small country like Ireland really had no need for.

No argument that the politicians are short sighted gombeen followers that are too interested in parish pump levels, but there IS a future for Shannon, if the right things are put into place to make it happen. The stopover was the biggest mistake made in relation to Shannon, all it did was get the place a bad reputation as a place that noone wanted to go to, but they had to anyway.

Much of present thinking is based on there being oil in relatively unlimited quantities for the forseeable future, but that may not be the case, for all sorts of reasons, some of them nothing to do with availability, and everything to do with shipability. The Middle East is becoming increasingly unstable, and some of the attitudes of politicians worldwide are not helping stability any.

So, people still want to travel to the States, but oil is not as plentiful as it was. Shipping of goods is not as easy either, because even heavy oil for ships is not as readily available.

So, here's an option that may well be worth considering. Shannon is one of the closest places to the East Coast of the States, and can be reached by large aircraft in a reasonable time scale, If the Shannon Estuary was developed along the lines of Rotterdam, and a rail link tied in to the UK and Europe, the potential to use the Shannon area as a rail to sea and air interchange is huge, as the rail option will be electric, which can be powered by things like nuclear and wind, or tide, and urgent freight can come in by air, less urgent by sea, for onward by rail, and some air hub activities are also feasible to the more peripheral areas of Europe.

Shannon needs to forget just trying to be a tourism destination, it needs to look for freight and passenger traffic to use the facilities it has, pre clearance should be marketed much more than it is,

The East Coast is NOT longhaul, it could be operated on much shorter turn rounds than at present, a recent 380 that a family member was on to Melbourne from London was due to stop in Singapore for 2 Hours, but was late out of London, and they unloaded the passengers, cleaned it, fuelled it and recatered, and reloaded and got it out in 45 Minutes. That's seriously impressive for an aircraft that size. A shuttle type operation out of Shannon to the East coast could get very high utilisation if the turnround is done properly. Shannon as a feed to Europe could work very well, but it needs some serious attention to detail by people like the DAA, who bluntly have not exactly shown themselves to be exactly dynamic in their capabilities in recent years. It also needs a carefully planned and operated feeder network to bring in both passengers and freight to the hub for onward movement, but it could and should be done. In time, a high speed rail link to Europe is going to have to happen sooner or later.

Another option that seems to be available but not acted on would be flights into the States to places that at preent don't have international services, using Shannon as preclearance would have significant advantages to the operators, and passengers, by clearing the immigration and custome hurdle at Shannon, properly managed that would be a lot easier to do than at some of the US hubs that are used at present.

It can and should be being pushed, but for whatever reason, it seems not to be being pushed, instead, DAA seems to be taking a very reactive role, and doing very little to promote the facilities that are there. Shannon is almost unique in having a very long runway, a large infrastructure and a high level of cover for things like Fire and Rescue, which the vast majority of airfields like Shannon can't come anywhere close to. It should be using it, and to do that means making the process for passengers as comfortable, pleasant and enjoyable as possible, which in recent years, they've not shown any great propensity for doing, unless you happen to like serious numbers of pints of Guinness before departing. Maybe doing a deal with the airlines to provide catering on the ground before boarding, as part of the clearance procedure, perhaps that's a service that could be a good earner, for sure the carrier would be happier for not having to serve hot meals on the flight in the same way if the passenger had their meal before boarding.

Duty Free started in Shannon, why can't the next new idea in Air transport statt there now, all it needs is the right promotion and marketing. Doing nothing is not an option, so DAA have 2 options. They either downsize the operation at Shannon to the same sort of levels that are at Cork, and other regional airports, or they keep the present levels of operation and aggressively market the things that Shannon can do well.

The other aspect of Shannon that should not be overlooked is that it is an important airfield in terms of being an emergency diversion airport for the Atlantic track system, an aircraft with any sort of problem that needs somewhere to go may well end up in Shannon. While DAA can't as such put a value on that service, it would be sorely missed if it was no longer available.

If there was a good General Aviation terminal, it might also be possible to persuade more of the business Jets to use preclearance, but again, that requires a significant change of attitude from the DAA, who have done very little to encourge anything other than passenger carriers for too long.

Freight also has advantages. It doesn't get lost, or drunk, or want services at strange hours of the day or night, and doesn't care if there's a weather delay. Shannon also has the advantage of a long runway that means full loads and full fuel are not a problem, and the normal departure direction is over low population areas, so safer in the event of a problem, and usable for longer periods of the night than high population areas. There's also plenty of space around Shannon to develop storage or interlinking warehousing for distribution services.

It can happen, but it needs some postive thinkers, and some out of the box attitudes, and we've not seen that from DAA, they're too comfortable in Dublin in semi state protected isolation, secure in the knowledge that they don't have to answer to shareholders in the same way as a private operator or company.

So, to me, Shannon has a future, but it needs DAA to get more actively involved with making it happen, rather than waiting for some else to make it happen for them.

Delancey

Quite correct Steve when you say that while the DAA calls the shots nothing will change - the innovative thinking you mention is and will remain absent as long as DAA remain in control.

cson

Nick Guats wrote: »

Does it have a future ? knock will be booming in 2012 and shannon will be a ghosttown.I think something radical will have to be done to save shannon airport, Hand it over to ryanair imo.

Knock will be booming and Shannon will be like a ghost town? Please.

Latest numbers
Knock 654,000 [2011]
Shannon 1,625,000 [2011]

Peak numbers
Knock 654,000 [2011]
Shannon 3,640,000 [2006]

So unless you expect Knock to somehow come up with about 1m passengers from nowhere this year then its a nonsensical notion.

9/15 of Knocks busiest routes are Ryanair which were no doubt achieved on terms agreeable to Mr O'Leary. Coincidentally Shannon's fall in pax numbers can be traced to the decision by Ryanair to discontinue its base there due in no small part I would hypothesize to the DAA not being willing to negotiate on terms.

I've argued in this thread [ http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056520922&page=7] as to the reasons why I believe State funding should concentrate on DUB, ORK and SNN exclusively.

Plowman

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roundymac

Shannon's runway is only 3200m. Longest in Ireland, doubt it was ever longest in Europe, am open to correction on that. Suspect Heathrow, CGD, were longer at the time.

highlydebased

Certainly not longest in Europe....CDG has 2x 4200m and there's some testing facility in france with a runway of 4900m I believe

Delancey

Delancey wrote: »

Realisitically Shannon has no future and never had a future - why was the Shannon stopover implemented ? To justify the existence of an airport that a small country like Ireland really had no need for.

All true, but there is a large shannon area contingent on these boards(cson etc) that will continue defending SNN no matter what untill it finds additional uses or shuts down(would be ideal for a sea - air cargo hub). You may as well be asking for public service reform. Pity they wouldn't instead be putting the same effort into persuading their local politicians to get the M20 completed and get them to Cork quicker, but thats probably not to SNN's advantage.

Simple facts are SNN is built in the wrong place, it was supposed to serve the south and west when in fact it serves none, The south use Cork and the West and North west use Knock or Dublin. With Galway and Sligo now closing this leaves Knock without competition for the west, north west, midlands regions. In reality the size of Ireland we only need 3 airports, Just too many in the south west.
Time for the taxpayer to stop funding this strip of concrete, and let some private enterprise take it over for something that may make a profit.

AS shown the south west corner of the country has 3 failing airports all in competition with each other instead of just one that would provide a good service to people in that region. Unfortunately people in that region have obviously been spoiled by successive governments and probably would be unwilling to travel more than an hour to an airport like most of the country.

highlydebased

Deleted User wrote: »

All true, but there is a large shannon area contingent on these boards who will continue defending SNN no matter what. Simple facts are SNN is built in the wrong place, it was supposed to serve the south and west when in fact it serves none, The south use Cork and the West and North west use Knock or Dublin.
Time for the taxpayer to stop funding this strip of concrete, and let some private enterprise take it over.

What about the 1.6m who used Shannon last year...the 2/3 million that have used it in years previous? They had to have come from somewhere.

Johnny901

Simple fact:

Shannon Airport will never be allowed shut down it is far too valuable as a piece of national infrastructure. SAR base, ATC control center, large aircraft maintenance operation etc etc

Delighted to see knock do so well, but the airline business is very fickle and who knows whats around the corned. Knock seems to have bucked the trend when it comes to Ryanair they have had a long relationship with the airline and there is no reason at the moment why that might change but you never know...

Hopefully both airports are far enough apart to continue and be successful.

cson

Deleted User wrote: »

All true, but there is a large shannon area contingent on these boards that will continue defending SNN no matter what untill it finds additional uses or shuts down. You may as well be asking for public service reform. Pity they wouldn't instead be putting the same effort into persuading their local politicians to get the M20 completed.

Are you ready to act like an adult again?

I think you'll find from my thoughts on the other thread, had of course you digested them thoroughly instead of picking and choosing what you want to read, that I am vehemently behind getting the Atlantic Corridor built. It would reduce the need for State spending on airports to just SNN, ORK and DUB.

Deleted User wrote: »

Simple facts are SNN is built in the wrong place, it was supposed to serve the south and west when in fact it serves none, The south use Cork and the West and North west use Knock or Dublin.
Time for the taxpayer to stop funding this strip of concrete, and let some private enterprise take it over for something that may make a profit.

You seem to have an ignorance about aviation history in this country and aviation in general. As much as it may upset your delicate sensitivities to hear this, Msg Horan did not invent nor introduce it to Ireland.

Shannon has a very rich aviation history, is located as it is in the Shannon Estuary due to it was one of the closest points of land to the US in this country and [ii] its flat meaning its approach is straightforward for aircraft.

Again ignore population densities and lets piss away more money keeping a regional airport open for the sake of having an airport in every corner of the country.

You surprise me with the last point because iI agree with you. And because if Shannon was privatised it'd do your beloved Knock serious damage.

Deleted User wrote: »

AS shown the south west corner of the country has 3 failing airports all in competition with each other instead of just one that would provide a good service to people in that region. Unfortunately people in that region have obviously been spoiled by successive governments and probably would be unwilling to travel more than an hour to an airport like most of the country.

You seem to be unwilling to travel more than hour yourself. Sauce for the goose sauce for the gander. I've shown you that currently the majority of the Northwest is less than 3hrs from SNN, DUB or LDY for those in Donegal. That is not a long journey.

I just want to make something clear too; I'm not in favour of shutting NOC/GWY/KIR/WAT/SXL. If they can trade profitably on their own merit then more power to them. What I am in favour of however is that Government spending in the future on airports be restricted to DUB, ORK and SNN and improving transport links to and from these hubs [i.e. Completing the M20/M18/M17 Atlantic Corridor].

highlydebased

highlydebased wrote: »

What about the 1.6m who used Shannon last year...the 2/3 million that have used it in years previous? They had to have come from somewhere.

How long can that continue with the countries budget deficit unless numbers increase and the airport stops losing money ??
SNN looking for the taxpayer to bail them out for 100Million, this is just getting ridiculous ! Make the SNN region pay for it if they want it, charge them on their flights.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/no-more-kicking-can-on-shannon-3002529.html

In reality DUB is the only airport that should be providing flights outside of Europe, it would give us all more choice on long haul. If people are willing to take long haul flights > 6hrs they should have no problem driving to DUB for that service.

The regional airports of Knock and Cork should be providing short haul european flights for people in these regions. Thankfully Knock has prevented commuters travelling 4 hours by road to take a 40 minute flight. There is now no region not within two hours of an airport, which can be provided with these three airports.

Plowman

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Plowman

Plowman wrote: »

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The big pity is that if governments in the past had any foresight you could have had a single airport which would be just 30 minutes drive from Limerick, Cork and Waterford instead of an airport at each city, and Kerry on top of that).

cson

Deleted User wrote: »

How long can that continue with the countries budget deficit unless numbers increase and the airport stops losing money ??

In reality DUB is the only airport that should be providing flights outside of Europe, it would give us all more choice on long haul. If people are willing to take long haul flights > 6hrs they should have no problem driving to DUB for that service.

If United and Delta thought for one moment that their services from Shannon to Newark and JFK weren't turning a profit then they'd be out of there in a flash. Long [medium in reality] haul flights exist out of Shannon because there is demand for them.

Deleted User wrote: »

The regional airports of Knock and Cork should be providing short haul european flights for people in these regions. Thankfully Knock has prevented commuters travelling 4 hours by road to take a 40 minute flight. There is now no region not within two hours of an airport, which can be provided with these three airports.

There is nowhere in Ireland 4 hours from an airport. At least make your nonsense somewhat plausible.

cson

cson wrote: »

If United and Delta thought for one moment that their services from Shannon to Newark and JFK weren't turning a profit then they'd be out of there in a flash. Long [medium in reality] haul flights exist out of Shannon because there is demand for them.



There is nowhere in Ireland 4 hours from an airport. At least make your nonsense somewhat plausible.

Cson continue your insults all day long if it makes you happy,:rolleyes: but that doesn't change the facts that before Knock airport there was many western areas at least 4 hours from Dub or SNN. You were only born after Knock was built, so unfortunately you dont have a clue what your talking about. Even with current road improvements it still takes 4 hours to get to SNN or DUB, but you would have to get into a car to see that.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

highlydebased

Deleted User wrote: »

Cson continue your insults all day long,:rolleyes: but that doesn't change the facts that before Knock airport there was many western areas at least 4 hours from Dub or SNN. You were only born after Knock was built, so unfortunately you dont have a clue what your talking about. Even with road improvements it still takes 4 hours to get to SNN or DUB.

cson is not being insulting- he's being realistic! It's not for you to decide either how old or how intelligent anybody on here is! You seem unable to argue a point without resorting to making petty personal remarks and pushing your own vendetta.

4 hours?
As an example...Castlebar to Shannon http://g.co/maps/9uw8t - 2 hours 15 (even if you add a half hour for traffic it's still not 4 hours)
Castlebar to Dublin Airport- just over 3 hours http://g.co/maps/w2afz

cson

Belmullet is 3.5hrs from Shannon.

That's pretty much as remote a 'major' population centre [~4k people] as you can get.

You live in the arse end of nowhere then you have to live with the consequences; one of which may well be that you might have to hop in the car for a few hours to get to an airport.

But yeah go on, ignore population densities and continue to water and feed whatever white elephant takes your fancy.

Plowman

Plowman wrote: »

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There is an excuse for everything if you want it, good job city airports all over the world don't use the same transparent excuses. I never said it would happen, just that it should have originally(too many moaners and lobby groups in the region obviously for that). I must have missed this mini Himalayas when down there last.

http://www.simtours.net/difficultapproaches.php

Hogzy

Deleted User wrote: »

The big pity is that if governments in the past had any foresight you could have had a single airport which would be just 30 minutes drive from Limerick, Cork and Waterford instead of an airport at each city, and Kerry on top of that).

Back in the day when the airports were built you would never have been able to build one airport 30mins from each city. The motorways are not here that long.

Fair enough the government do not use much foresight however you cannot expect them to build white elephants all over the country (be it Airport, Train Station, Motorway etc) knowing that they will be needed in 50yrs time. Thats not how things work.

Look at the M3 motorway. Im sure in the next 100yrs are so that will be at capacity but at the moment there is feck all traffic on it. People are giving out stink that it was built and rightly so.

cson

highlydebased wrote: »

4 hours?
As an example...Castlebar to Shannon http://g.co/maps/9uw8t - 2 hours 15 (even if you add a half hour for traffic it's still not 4 hours)
Castlebar to Dublin Airport- just over 3 hours http://g.co/maps/w2afz

Ah but shur he's been travelling those roads since God was a little boy and you'd be lucky to do it in 5hrs of a good day.

Well, according to the thread in Infrastructure anyway.

cson

cson wrote: »

Belmullet is 3.5hrs from Shannon.

That's pretty much as remote a 'major' population centre [~4k people] as you can get.

You live in the arse end of nowhere then you have to live with the consequences; one of which may well be that you might have to hop in the car for a few hours to get to an airport.

But yeah go on, ignore population densities and continue to water and feed whatever white elephant takes your fancy.

:D Sure, it is if you have a helicopter, Cson you really need to get out more we all d'ont have motorways so unlike you Google maps doesn't always actually mean you get there when it says.. As i have said to you before if you travelled on roads with no cars, and the dozen or so towns on the way closed down, then you might just might make it.:). Seriously take a few weekend trips from college you need to see more of the country and world obviously.:eek: You know its quiet in SNN when they even have the lobby group here working Saturdays.:) (good thing about boards you can see posting history together) its got pretty bad when you lot are arguing the west is only 4 hours away from SNN to justify it existence OMG..Fun chatting but i dont work for SNN so have to go to work,

Plowman

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cson

Deleted User wrote: »

:D Sure, it is if you have a helicopter, Cson you really need to get out more we all d'ont have motorways so unlike you Google maps doesn't always actually mean you get there when it says.. As i have said to you before if you travelled on roads with no cars, and the dozen or so towns on the way closed down, then you might just might make it.:). Seriously take a few weekend trips from college you need to see more of the country and world obviously.:eek: You know its quiet in SNN when they even have the lobby group here working Saturdays.:) Fun chatting but i dont work for SNN so have to go to work,

Back to the childishness again. Yawn.

G luck.

Plowman wrote: »

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DAA would never let it happen but there's a massive case to be made for relocating the Aer Corps to SNN and selling Casement for commercial use. Build a link up to the Saggart Luas and boom; in one go you've just solved Dublin's capacity and need for the extra runway issues in one fell swoop [obviously looking long term not at the moment].

Irish Steve

cson wrote: »

DAA would never let it happen but there's a massive case to be made for relocating the Aer Corps to SNN and selling Casement for commercial use. Build a link up to the Saggart Luas and boom; in one go you've just solved Dublin's capacity and need for the extra runway issues in one fell swoop [obviously looking long term not at the moment].

You think so? If casement was not where it is, with the runway orientation that is has, maybe, but with it in that location and runway orientation, there would be more space on the ground for aircraft, that's true, but there is already a conflict between the approach path of the 2 airfields, so using Casement as an alternative to Dublin is not going to solve much capacity wise, and the approach profile to Casement is over heavily populated areas, so there will be both safety and noise abatement considerations that will restrict what would be allowed into Casement.

At some stage, Dublin is going to have to do some serious work on 10/28, the foundations are starting to fail, despite it not being that old a runway, and ideally, it needs to be long enough to allow things like 747 freighters to operate at MTOW, which they can't do at the moment.

Going back to Shannon, one of the other underlying reasons for it's location was the original flying boat station at Foynes, which was the start of trans atlantic operations. When flying boats went out of favour, Shannon was the answer for the fix wing aircraft of the day to operate from, and there is a long history as a result, which should not be dismissed.

As I think I mentioned earlier, the real problem was the Shannon Stopover, which forced operators to land 3 times in Ireland for one rotation to Dublin, which was a major disincentive to developing Irish Routes for a long time.

Given real commitment, which seems to be sadly lacking, Shannon could become a very busy and significant hub for the North Atlantic, but only if there is a lot more proactive action from DAA, which is sadly lacking at the moment.

There is also another point to be considered. Depending on the time of day the flight leaves at, there is a check in time to be factored in to the travel time. A flight leaving Shannon at 10 am to the States may well mean being at the airport between 7 and 8. To acheive that arrival time with a journey that's 3 hours means leaving at 4 am, or earlier if a longer journey, or it means a night stop, and what about the scenario of a family member dropping someone off and going home again afterwards. A day's travel to get someone to the airport? I don't think so,

The fundamental problem facing Shannon at the moment is not that it's there, it's that it's too large for the area it's in, as a result of a historic accident that made it that size when flights had to stop for fuel back in the days when they might not even get across the Atlantic every day. It's there, and not likely to be easily downsized, so what's needed is the creativity to find ways to use the capacity it has to best effect, instead of hoping that some operator somewhere will wave a magic wand for Shannon and solve all it's problems. DAA has to engage actively with promoting Shannon.

Ideally, Shannon would have it's own manangement and be independent of Dublin and Cork, but the politicians still have their heads where the sun doesn't shine in that respect, and won't untangle the puzzle in a way that will allow both Cork & Shannon to start determining their own futures without being beholden to Dublin.

Delancey

This country for decades followed a policy of providing for expensive ( and in many cases ' Mickey Mouse ' ) airports dotted all over the country - this investment was undertaken at the expense of decent road links which would have been of far greater benefit to the country as a whole.

We have way too many airports and there will have to be a significant rationalisation - Galway , Waterford and Donegal are 3 that spring to mind.

Shannon has no chance unless it can market itself to airlines as a low cost airport , something that seems unlikely given current staffing levels.

We are a small island and its very easy to attach too much importance to the benefits of having your ' own ' airport , for all the Shannon supporters throwing their toys out of the pram when the Governmemt belatedly ended the Shannon stopover the questions must be asked if the end of the stop did any damage to the regional economy ?
Yes , Sile DeValera mercilessly worked the parish pump and resigned the Fianna Fail whip in protest but did ending the stop do any damage to the region ( other than hurt feelings and local politicians pandering to voters ) ?

pclancy

Don't let this thread descend into petty insults etc, it is possible to debate each others viewpoint without name calling. I will hand out infractions to the next poster that cannot attack the post and not the poster.

Skyhawk684

Delancey wrote: »

This country for decades followed a policy of providing for expensive ( and in many cases ' Mickey Mouse ' ) airports dotted all over the country - this investment was undertaken at the expense of decent road links which would have been of far greater benefit to the country as a whole.

We have way too many airports and there will have to be a significant rationalisation - Galway , Waterford and Donegal are 3 that spring to mind.

I don't agree with you on rationalising Wateford, since it is the only proper airport in the south east which has a population of 460,838 (according to the 2006 census). Waterford isn't doing as bad as likes of Galway, since Easyjet are starting a route this year to London Southend and FlyBe are going to be starting a route to Birmingham.

Zonda999

Easyjet are opening a route to Southend from Waterford? Didn't think Waterford would be able to handle jet aircraft..

highlydebased

Skyhawk684 wrote: »

I don't agree with you on rationalising Wateford, since it is the only proper airport in the south east which has a population of 460,838 (according to the 2006 census). Waterford isn't doing as bad as likes of Galway, since Easyjet are starting a route this year to London Southend and FlyBe are going to be starting a route to Birmingham.

I didn't hear about the Easyjet flight....will be interesting to see how that works out from a number of perspectives (getting the aircraft in there for a start!)

highlydebased

Zonda999 wrote: »

Easyjet are opening a route to Southend from Waterford? Didn't think Waterford would be able to handle jet aircraft..

Seems it is true http://www.flywaterford.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=205&Itemid=200 - I'd say numbers will be restricted though

urajoke

Shannon's existence as a passenger airport is very limited. At most it will keep its flights to the US but I doubt it will expand on them as US airlines will just try and make there current routes work and increase capacity where needed by feeding passengers onto those flight in the US and move from a 757 to a 767 where needed.

Holiday routes are the only realistic expansion but I can see this as a limited option as few have money to fly/holiday these days.

The emergency Atlantic diversion airfield, moot point as Shannon will never close and doesn't neccesarily need a huge terminal to provide this function Kangerlussuaq Airport in Greenland also provides this function and is MUCH smaller also like Lajes in the Azores (size doesn't matter bar having a reasonable runway length).

Swanwick ATCC is not near a major airport so having Ballycasey in an industrial estate won't save Shannon not that Shannon airport will close.

Shannons real future is Cargo, that would require investment to provide a large dedicated apron and warehousing. But Shannon will never do well as its not central in Europe or Ireland unlike Liege or East midlands so it won't attract the large Cargo companies away from their current facilities.

People in Shannon need to be real, Shannon's future is not bright but it will survive in some form or other.

If this is true about the state writing off 100 million of shannon airport debt then its an absolute disgrace. This is debt of people that use shannon airport and if they want there airport in the swamp then they should pay for it by putting a levy on each passenger that want the convenience of shannon to pay their debt, like people in the west and north west support Knock with a 10 euro levy to pay for its development.

The tax payer has enough burdens and should not be paying for an airport that doesn't have the numbers to keep it open. I do forget though that from that area they dont like travelling more than an hour to an airport:mad: I'd much rather see the 100 million go to securing the building of the childrens hospital in Dublin instead of bailing out overstaffed underused inefficient airports. Remove the passenger section and turn it into a sea - air cargo airport if it can make a profit.

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...n-3002529.html

Jamie2k9

Easyjet are NOT operating from WAT, the press relase is to offer connections to passengers flying with AER ARANN on the route.

urajoke

Deleted User wrote: »

If this is true about the state writing off 100 million of shannon airport debt then its an absolute disgrace. This is debt of people that use shannon airport and if they want there airport in the swamp then they should pay for it by putting a levy on each passenger that use that shannon to pay their debt, like people in the west and north west support Knock with a 10 euro levy to pay for its development.

The tax payer has enough burdens and should not be paying for an airport that doesn't have the numbers to keep it open.:mad:

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...n-3002529.html

It means more for Dublin than Shannon. It means Shannon can be cut loose and has to fend for itself while Dublin doesn't have to shoulder the burden of Shannon and its massive debts. Possibly paving the way for a full privatisation of Shannon at some point.

Tenger

Don't want to get too involved in the debate but I see SNN as a great resource that is currently underused. (I agree that the SNN stopover has created a negative opinion towards it)

I agree that the idea of SNN as a cargo hub is spot on. Large airport, no nearby urban area to encroach means night ops. (In from Europe, night departure from SNN,early morn arrival into USA) Long runway allows max take off weight (full range), access to port means container ship access, closest airport to USA from Europe.

Such a thing will take 5-10 years at least to develop but it is a strong option.

I like the logic behind the Europe-SNN-USA hub presented by Irish Steve, I'm just not sure how it would happen. No existing airline will try it unless in the next 5 years we see the much touted 'RyanAtlantic' venture actually happen.

EDIT: Rebuttal at Zonda999- Don't look at a LCC T/A airline using B787/A350, just imagine how many low hour B763/B764/B772/A333 may become available in 5 years time when airlines are replacing them with the B787/A350. Any such SNN hub operation will be cramming pax into aircraft,no need for too much comfort. You say it is not the FR style. Look at how they started. second hand B732's into a 200+ B738 order! The huge 2001/2002 order was a gamble/opportunity that they did very well out of.

Zonda999

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Easyjet are NOT operating from WAT, the press relase is to offer connections to passengers flying with AER ARANN on the route.

I see, although if I'm honest, i can't see the attraction in getting two flights to get to mainland Europe from Waterford when Dublin airport is only about an hour and a half away and Cork airport is only an hour away.

My two cents on the thread: Its questionable whether there should be more than one airport in the state offering transatlantic flights, even though looking at any other country in Europe with a similar population to ours, there would only be one. Think Denmark, Holland or Belgium, they all effectively use one airport for long haul. Difference with us being that Ireland is bigger geographically that any of those countries, even though we have a smaller population than any of them. Unfortunately our transport links aren't as good as those countries though.

Tenger wrote: »

No existing airline will try it unless in the next 5 years we see the much touted 'RyanAtlantic' venture actually happen.

Which doesn't look too likely really, seeing as they couldn't possible get the aircraft needed(Assuming they would be using 787's or A350's) unless they were to use used aircraft, which doesn't seem to be ryanairs style. Plus its pretty questionable how the long haul low cost business model stacks up when you think about it... Only savings i can think that can be made over existing transatlantic operators is choosing 'cheaper' airports..

Dublin Spotter

At some stage, Dublin is going to have to do some serious work on 10/28, the foundations are starting to fail, despite it not being that old a runway, and ideally, it needs to be long enough to allow things like 747 freighters to operate at MTOW, which they can't do at the moment.

This came up a while back and do the DAA have a plan on what they plan to do with it etc.

cson

Again re two airports in the country operating transatlantic flights; Delta and United wouldn't be flying from Shannon unless it paid them to. United operate year round too btw.

Dacian

cson wrote: »

Again re two airports in the country operating transatlantic flights; Delta and United wouldn't be flying from Shannon unless it paid them to. United operate year round too btw.

I can't see anyone arguing against the viability of SNN on certain routes. The big picture is that we have 4 airports (Cork,Kerry,Shannon,Knock) serving a catchment area that requires 1-2 airports.

Sad to say but the GWY scenario is a sign that the market cannot support too many airports.

What we need is a political will to override local interests and decide what is best for the entire Western half of the country, in terms of infrastructure/jobs/economy. If we got better road access from Kerry to SNN/ORK we would be able to close Kerry airport.

Fair play to NOC but would it be better to consolidate all air travel from Connaught/North Munster to SNN, allowing ORK to be the destination for South Munster/South Leinster?

Regardless of personal preference we need a strong will to enforce a solution that is beneficial for the entire region not just small pockets. The map posted earlier vividly demonstrates the viability and badly planned Irish airports infrastructure.

Zonda999

Tenger wrote: »

EDIT: Rebuttal at Zonda999- Don't look at a LCC T/A airline using B787/A350, just imagine how many low hour B763/B764/B772/A333 may become available in 5 years time when airlines are replacing them with the B787/A350. Any such SNN hub operation will be cramming pax into aircraft,no need for too much comfort. You say it is not the FR style. Look at how they started. second hand B732's into a 200+ B738 order! The huge 2001/2002 order was a gamble/opportunity that they did very well out of.

There certainly will be plenty of those around, but somehow when people hear about 'Ryanatlantic', i think they assume it would be all new aircraft but maybe not of course.. I still think though that any such venture would be done with one aircraft type to bring down maintenance costs, i just can't see 'Ryanatlantic' being a Transaero like operation, with a load of different aircraft types being used because thats what were available from other airlines

In retrospect, I was probably wrong expecting any such airline to start with an all new fleet, lets face it, Ryanatlantic would have to make money completely independent of Ryanair. I think its just when MOL was asked a couple of years ago about the delay, he said it was about the lack of availability of cheap aircraft, which everyone assumed to be the 787 or whatever