Where are all the good single men gone too?

starlit

Give me a gamma man!? if that is what I am looking for but then it would be harsh in me saying that a beta man would do? Its the same concept so in the animal world then?

Reward

I hope thats helped.

Reward

snuggles285 wrote: »

Great, good on you!

sollar wrote: »

Those rules don't apply so easily to humans.

They do now that monogamy and marriage are on the way out and they did before organised monogamy and marriage where in.

We are in a transitional period.

starlit

mariebeth wrote: »

The whole issue on the 'perfect guy' really goes back to the rom com thread - I know that my ideal of the 'mr. right' could have been based on a guy out of a rom com before, until I woke up & realised that ya, Gerard Butler or whoever else, is absolutely gorgeous, but he's only playing a character. He could be a total asse in real life!

Personally I'm trying to give up on looking for the perfect guy, he doesn't exist, and neither, for that matter, does the perfect woman. We all have flaws, life would be boring if we didn't. It all boils down really, to finding someone that you can see yourself still caring about, fancying and wanting to be with, in 20, 30 years time etc. and trying to avoid the guys that you could see yourself waking up one morning in 10 or 20 years and trying to suffocate him with a pillow! Because, then you have a problem!

Honestly Snuggles, I would still say you need to lighten up and relax a bit. Enjoy life being single, because you might find a time when you miss it, particularly if you rush in to a relationship with a guy just for the sake of being in a relationship. I know it's a lot easier to give this advice than to take it, but I've just come out the other side of a relationship that I think I rushed in to because I felt the same way that you did right now. And, you know what, I realised that I could see myself waking up in 10 or 15 years & trying to strangle him, as much as I cared about him and still do care about him as a friend, but that was when I knew it had to end (for his personal safety!). It's very easy to start a relationship, but it can be incredibly hard to end one, so take your time, try to get out there & meet more guys, chat to them, have a laugh with them & then when you get to know them, see if you want to have a relationship with them.

Honestly, there's no hurry. So just relax & enjoy

Very interesting you probably described what I had with my ex. I went into a relationship just for the sake of it. He chased me endlessly and so I gave in to him. I went out with him out of pity though. I did fancy him but not enough to get too serious. It ended badly. Ya have done that very much so chatting to guys and having fun for the past few years when it comes to guys when being out being relaxed and not expecting to come of it. Maybe its the crowd that is about lately...not to my taste I don't know!? I talk to some guys and get the feeling they don't want to speak to me or that they give me the brush off sometimes even when I do make an effort. Or is it the conversation I have with them doesn't flow naturally...

Reward

mariebeth wrote: »

The whole issue on the 'perfect guy' really goes back to the rom com thread - I know that my ideal of the 'mr. right' could have been based on a guy out of a rom com before, until I woke up & realised that ya, Gerard Butler or whoever else, is absolutely gorgeous, but he's only playing a character. He could be a total asse in real life!

Personally I'm trying to give up on looking for the perfect guy, he doesn't exist, and neither, for that matter, does the perfect woman. We all have flaws, life would be boring if we didn't. It all boils down really, to finding someone that you can see yourself still caring about, fancying and wanting to be with, in 20, 30 years time etc. and trying to avoid the guys that you could see yourself waking up one morning in 10 or 20 years and trying to suffocate him with a pillow! Because, then you have a problem!

Honestly Snuggles, I would still say you need to lighten up and relax a bit. Enjoy life being single, because you might find a time when you miss it, particularly if you rush in to a relationship with a guy just for the sake of being in a relationship. I know it's a lot easier to give this advice than to take it, but I've just come out the other side of a relationship that I think I rushed in to because I felt the same way that you did right now. And, you know what, I realised that I could see myself waking up in 10 or 15 years & trying to strangle him, as much as I cared about him and still do care about him as a friend, but that was when I knew it had to end (for his personal safety!). It's very easy to start a relationship, but it can be incredibly hard to end one, so take your time, try to get out there & meet more guys, chat to them, have a laugh with them & then when you get to know them, see if you want to have a relationship with them.

Honestly, there's no hurry. So just relax & enjoy

I agree, the crap media that women consume has lead to distorted expectations and realities.

plasmaguy

Snuggles, while you are right to be a bit shallow lookswise, at the same time don't overlook personality.

Personality lasts a lot longer than looks.

It sounds like you live in a rural area, and I'm originally from a rural background so I probably know where you are coming from.

All the highly educated single professionals all seem to live in cities now. Faster pace of life, more distractions etc. What you get in rural areas is families raising kids, married couples, old people, and then lower educated tradespeople etc, which by the sounds of it you aren't interested in.

I'm not sure what the solution is.

For example was there anyone you fancied in secondary school that might still be knocking around your locality? Maybe you could "accidently" bump into them some time, or else just give them a call and ask do they want to meet up sometime for a coffee or drink to catch up on old times. Build it up slow, don't come across desperate. But also be confident.

starlit

Reward wrote: »

The do now that monogamy and marriage are on the way out and the did before organised monogamy and marriage where in.

We are in a transitional period.

Really. I know the trend is to have partners and maybe have kids before marriage or not bother to get married and just cohabit. The monogamy thing I don't know...I suppose you can have more than one life partner I guess?

mikom

Where have all the good men gone
And where are all the gods?
Where's the street-wise Hercules
To fight the rising odds?
Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed?
Late at night I toss and turn and dream
of what I need

I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the morning light
He's gotta be sure
And it's gotta be soon
And he's gotta be larger than life

Somewhere after midnight
In my wildest fantasy
Somewhere just beyond my reach
There's someone reaching back for me
Racing on the thunder end rising with the heat
It's gonna take a superman to sweep me off my feet

starlit

plasmaguy wrote: »

Snuggles, while you are right to be a bit shallow lookswise, at the same time don't overlook personality.

Personality lasts a lot longer than looks.

It sounds like you live in a rural area, and I'm originally from a rural background so I probably know where you are coming from.

All the highly educated single professionals all seem to live in cities now. Faster pace of life, more distractions etc. What you get in rural areas is families raising kids, married couples, old people, and then lower educated tradespeople etc, which by the sounds of it you aren't interested in.

I'm not sure what the solution is.

For example was there anyone you fancied in secondary school that might still be knocking around your locality? Maybe you could "accidently" bump into them some time, or else just give them a call and ask do they want to meet up sometime for a coffee or drink to catch up on old times. Build it up slow, don't come across desperate. But also be confident.

Of course, personality over looks would win hands down for me! Yup I do live in a rural area so tis a bit blah when its an effort to just traipse to the nearest town or city to head out at all or go anywhere! I don't even live ina village! Ya you got that right, I want a highly educated man but what job he has wouldn't bother me. Tradesmen scare me....I went out with a few and well I felt they couldn't hold down a proper conversation or at least an intellectual one! They lived too much of an easy going simple life! I like an easy going guy but I like a man who can hold his own! To be honest I didn't hang out with boys much when I were in secondary school was a bit too engrossed in my studies. Even for my debs, well the guy I went with well, we just stayed friends and I know for a fact he just wanted to be friends. I've bumped into him a few times since but he still feels the same way! Any others have left and moved else where!

Reward

snuggles285 wrote: »

Really. I know the trend is to have partners and maybe have kids before marriage or not bother to get married and just cohabit. The monogamy thing I don't know...I suppose you can have more than one life partner I guess?

Looking at trends in other countries marriage is going to disappear in a matter of decades. Me personally, I'm fully supportive of the transient harem system and serial monogamy. I think that given the present state of marital law, marriage is not a wise move for men, why sign off on a bad contract?

Wibbs

No, not really snuggles285. Most of this stuff has come out of the "Pickup Artist" meme. They follow the same script, often pimping the meme without realising it. Like all such populist notions(especially on the web), there is a small grain of truth in it, which then gets the reductive and not naturally socially mature men(and women) thinking the small parts are scalable to the real world. The little knowledge is a dangerous thing comes into it too. BUt hey it sells books and videos and advertising webspace and expensive seminars etc to the earnest but gullible.

There are a few problems with this theory in it's more extreme form. For a start it's culturally based. IE American. A large section of them have bought into the whole will to power Nietzschian stuff. The American culture and dating culture in particular has quite a few subtle differences. It's a culture with few safety nets for those who don't end up doing OK, it can also be quite a dog eat dog culture. This impacts women's choices in men, so they will tend to aim for so called "alpha males" to ensure their personal and financial safety. Secondly it's aimed at a culture where marriage is on average a lot younger than here and what one wants at 18 is a far cry from ones wants at 30.

Another issue is this alpha stuff. While we are social animals and social animals have heirarchies it's far more subtle in humans(and indeed the great apes). Alphas often dont get the results either. A silverback gorilla is about as alpha as you can get and he also has a harem of females, yet many such males are raising offspring that are not their own. Usually fathered by so called beta males. We also have variable alphas. The jock in the gym may not be an alpha in the boardroom and vice versa. Throughout the average day a man(or woman for that matter) can encounter many people "above" them and many people "below".

There's also a buy into a fantistist element to this PUA stuff. The buy in is "20% of men shag 80% of women. YOU can be that man if you buy into our stuff So don't be an AFG!" Average frustrated chump. I kid thee not dear reader. They love this kinda terminology. There are lists of these military/techie sounding acronyms. It comforts the kind of linear thinking guy this stuff is aimed at. Enough people buy into this and egg each other on with their "successes" and the more it looks like it works. For a guy who couldnt pull a muscle in a gym, never mind a woman, this is all strong voodoo. Of course 90% of it is a simple numbers game. If some wallflower bloke has never asked or even talked with a woman, then if he's forced to "game" 10 women in a night, he will have success sooner or later.

You see we started to get this PUA stuff dressed up as fact over in PI when I modded there and you start to see the patterns and I started to look into it further for myself as it seemed so popular among a certain group of men. The best insight I recieved was when I actually met one of these (UK) Guru's who was making a nice living from it ta very much. Nice fella actually we had a few ales. But it had so many scam tactics and hard sell tactics with it. Including stuff like after seminars planted women in clubs who would talk to the drooling geek so he thought his game was working. Classic.

Basically take that stuff beyond the surface as just popular psuedoscience. It's up there with newspaper astrology.

IMHO the answers to this question you raise are pretty simple snuggles285. At least the first steps are. 1) chill FFS. You've time. 2) Don't get into the list mindset, because the more you build such a list the more likely you are to cross off many men who would be good for you. 3) work on yourself. Improve your mental, emotional and physical fitness. The better you are the better choices you'll make. 4) Get out there. Meet people. This will likely come with the improving yourself part. 5) Chill. Yep it needs to said twice

Wibbs

PS promotion of PUA stuff is not welcome on this forum(indeed its frowned upon and often bannable here, in TGC and PI/RI). At best expect to have it picked apart mercilessly by the members, at worst posters will be banned for repeating the same tired old mantras. Given the level of misogyny in much of the genre you can take the latter as read in the Ladies Lounge

Reward

Wibbs wrote: »

No, not really snuggles285. Most of this stuff has come out of the "Pickup Artist" meme. They follow the same script, often pimping the meme without realising it. Like all such populist notions(especially on the web), there is a small grain of truth in it, which then gets the reductive and not naturally socially mature men(and women) thinking the small parts are scalable to the real world. The little knowledge is a dangerous thing comes into it too. BUt hey it sells books and videos and advertising webspace and expensive seminars etc to the earnest but gullible.

There are a few problems with this theory in it's more extreme form. For a start it's culturally based. IE American. A large section of them have bought into the whole will to power Nietzschian stuff. The American culture and dating culture in particular has quite a few subtle differences. It's a culture with few safety nets for those who don't end up doing OK, it can also be quite a dog eat dog culture. This impacts women's choices in men, so they will tend to aim for so called "alpha males" to ensure their personal and financial safety. Secondly it's aimed at a culture where marriage is on average a lot younger than here and what one wants at 18 is a far cry from ones wants at 30.

Another issue is this alpha stuff. While we are social animals and social animals have heirarchies it's far more subtle in humans(and indeed the great apes). Alphas often dont get the results either. A silverback gorilla is about as alpha as you can get and he also has a harem of females, yet many such males are raising offspring that are not their own. Usually fathered by so called beta males. We also have variable alphas. The jock in the gym may not be an alpha in the boardroom and vice versa. Throughout the average day a man(or woman for that matter) can encounter many people "above" them and many people "below".

There's also a buy into a fantistist element to this PUA stuff. The buy in is "20% of men shag 80% of women. YOU can be that man if you buy into our stuff So don't be an AFG!" Average frustrated chump. I kid thee not dear reader. They love this kinda terminology. There are lists of these military/techie sounding acronyms. It comforts the kind of linear thinking guy this stuff is aimed at. Enough people buy into this and egg each other on with their "successes" and the more it looks like it works. For a guy who couldnt pull a muscle in a gym, never mind a woman, this is all strong voodoo. Of course 90% of it is a simple numbers game. If some wallflower bloke has never asked or even talked with a woman, then if he's forced to "game" 10 women in a night, he will have success sooner or later.

You see we started to get this PUA stuff dressed up as fact over in PI when I modded there and you start to see the patterns and I started to look into it further for myself as it seemed so popular among a certain group of men. The best insight I recieved was when I actually met one of these (UK) Guru's who was making a nice living from it ta very much. Nice fella actually we had a few ales. But it had so many scam tactics and hard sell tactics with it. Including stuff like after seminars planted women in clubs who would talk to the drooling geek so he thought his game was working. Classic.

Basically take that stuff beyond the surface as just popular psuedoscience. It's up there with newspaper astrology.

IMHO the answers to this question you raise are pretty simple snuggles285. At least the first steps are. 1) chill FFS. You've time. 2) Don't get into the list mindset, because the more you build such a list the more likely you are to cross off many men who would be good for you. 3) work on yourself. Improve your mental, emotional and physical fitness. The better you are the better choices you'll make. 4) Get out there. Meet people. This will likely come with the improving yourself part. 5) Chill. Yep it needs to said twice

Its absolutely true that PUA is largely a scam, self help for men that are excluded from the sexual market place sold by the men that arent but beyond that and as I said before, organised monogamy and marriage is the main difference between us and the animal kingdom when it comes to mate selection and if you follow snuggles posts she in conforming exactly to the profile of female hypergamous selection outlined in evolutionary psychology as does the pattern of the modern casual sex scene, as does the pattern of apes as did our pattern before organised monogamy and marriage.

The fact that there are people exploiting and selling the concept to the men that are excluded from the casual sex scene doesn't discount the truths that are there.

starlit

Reward wrote: »

Its absolutely true that PUA is largely a scam, self help for men that are excluded from the sexual market place sold by man that arent but as I said before, organised monogamy and marriage is the main difference between us and the animal kingdom when it comes to mate selection and if you follow snuggles posts she in conforming exactly to the profile of female hypergamous selection outlined in evolutionary psychology as does the pattern of the modern casual sex scene.

I agree what you are saying. I'm more thinking of the animal kingdom that are penguines, swans, etc that would likely just have one mate for a lifetime...mates for life that sort of thing. I see where you are going with conforming....(ps I do not engage in casual sex!) I'm a swan at heart!

So monogamy is slowly going out the window then, go figures!

That PUA stuff sounds like complete balls to me. Your dream guy might not be out there, snuggles, but you can be guaranteed that there might be some guys that come close, you just write these off because they don't match some criteria you've set down in stone.

I think everyone has lists of things that would rule someone out as a potential mate - for me it's things like smoking and heavy drinking, but you just have to know which one of those you are willing to go against. Say if you met someone you were greatly attracted to, had an amazing personality and was a nice guy but was smaller than you, would you give him the heave-ho?

starlit

Deleted User wrote: »

That PUA stuff sounds like complete balls to me. Your dream guy might not be out there, snuggles, but you can be guaranteed that there might be some guys that come close, you just write these off because they don't match some criteria you've set down in stone.

I think everyone has lists of things that would rule someone out as a potential mate - for me it's things like smoking and heavy drinking, but you just have to know which one of those you are willing to go against. Say if you met someone you were greatly attracted to, had an amazing personality and was a nice guy but was smaller than you, would you give him the heave-ho?

Depends on the guy...:o I would let a couple things go that weren't all too important to me when it comes to guys but there are things I wouldn't change. If he was shorter than me, I might, if he same height I might not...I'm 4"10 or 4"11 so a shorter guy might seem weird...

So when you say "short guys", in or around how tall did you mean?

Reward

Deleted User wrote: »

That PUA stuff sounds like complete balls to me. Your dream guy might not be out there, snuggles, but you can be guaranteed that there might be some guys that come close, you just write these off because they don't match some criteria you've set down in stone.

I think everyone has lists of things that would rule someone out as a potential mate - for me it's things like smoking and heavy drinking, but you just have to know which one of those you are willing to go against. Say if you met someone you were greatly attracted to, had an amazing personality and was a nice guy but was smaller than you, would you give him the heave-ho?

Women just have a stricter criteria than men do. Using male criteria to understand a woman's is not going to get you accurate results. Snuggles has stated clearly that she wants a male that stands out from the others. One of higher social status than the rest.

Reward

Reward wrote: »

Women just have a stricter criteria than men do. Using male criteria to understand a woman's is not going to get you accurate results. Snuggles has stated clearly that she wants a male that stands out from the others. One of higher social status than the rest.

That isn't necessarily true. Having a higher social status doesn't make you stand out more than anyone else; it won't decide your looks, your personality, your temperament, your intellect, etc. etc.

Wibbs

Monogamy like sexual preference is quite fluid in humans. Some people are more monogamous than others. It's not always down to opportunity either. The most monogamous man I've ever known is a very good looking guy. Women will actually check him out and come up and buy him drinks, ask him to dance etc. Yet by 30 he had 2 very long term girlfriends(only one of which was notably pretty).

One theory has it that biologically we may have a mating cycle that lasts between 3 and 4 years. Just enough time to get pregnant and get the child mature enough to be weaned. There seems to be some element in that and any brief look through PI etc will show that timeframe is a real common one for breakups. That said it doesnt take into account familial bonding merely pair bonding so IMHO it has some work yet as a theory. Plus hormonal contraceptives appear to influence women's choices and coming off such after meeting a guy while on it, seems to show an upswing in breakups.

Even after all of that and the "marriage is dead" idea, the majority of people, even the playas of either gender tend to settle down into very long term relationships. Most people still marry their long term partner. Now they can fail, no argument there, but even when they do those same people will usually marry or stay in long termers again. You would think them least likely. Indeed in Ireland the marriage rate has gone up not down.

My prediction would be that in the future as we live longer and have more choice and delay first marriage that we'll average out with 2, maybe 3 real long termers in our lives with some flingettes in between. You'll still have the playas, but you'll have way more of the married with 2.2 kids types.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

That isn't necessarily true. Having a higher social status doesn't make you stand out more than anyone else; it won't decide your looks, your personality, your temperament, your intellect, etc. etc.

In fairness it usually does. IE tall men(not too tall) just by virtue of being tall are measurably more respected in tests of such things. High social value would also be massively based on intellect and temperament. Inherited wealth would be one of the few flies in that ointment.

Interestingly people 9 times outa 10 end up with equal status partners. Even those who claim their OH are so much better looking/intelligent than them, you'll find the claimant has something that brings them up to their partners level. Of course there's still the 1 outa 10. That's humans for ya

Reward

Deleted User wrote: »

That isn't necessarily true. Having a higher social status doesn't make you stand out more than anyone else; it won't decide your looks, your personality, your temperament, your intellect, etc. etc.

Im talking about higher status in the sexual market place, social class, the guy that in a social group stands out, is confident and is the one that the others look up to and respect. Its true that snuggles clearly described a higher ranking male, an alpha male or a gamma male.

I come from a lower middle class family; my father is a self-employed worker and my mother is a teacher, so we don't have much of a social status. However all my siblings (including me, to some extent) have gone on to achieve Master degree, PHDs, and are working in relatively respected positions in various areas.

mikom

Deleted User wrote: »

Having a higher social status doesn't make you stand out more than anyone else; it won't decide your looks, your personality, your temperament, your intellect, etc. etc.

That's my Christmas wish-list of teeth capping and a place at Oxford out the window so.

Reward

Deleted User wrote: »

I come from a lower middle class family; my father is a self-employed worker and my mother is a teacher, so we don't have much of a social status. However all my siblings (including me, to some extent) have gone on to achieve Master degree, PHDs, and are working in relatively respected positions in various areas.

You misunderstand, Im not talking about class or back ground. Im talking about status and ranking in a social group and certain psychological traits that women find attractive.

It's funny how this thread has evolved - from a simple question to a fullblown debate.

Reward

Deleted User wrote: »

It's funny how this thread has evolved - from a simple question to a fullblown debate.

I don't think that it was a simple question, I think it was quite controversial. For a start, the premise was that there are few "good" men.

K-9

Reward wrote: »

You misunderstand, Im not talking about class or back ground. Im talking about status and ranking in a social group and certain psychological traits that women find attractive.

The problem is many men, especially PUA types, misconstrue what an alpha male is. I'd wager some of the men the OP is giving out about would perceive themselves as one but in the long run, it differs from what women want in a confident, dominant, modern male.

Blusher

Gosh this is a very complicated thread........once a guy is tall, is working/aiming to get a job (given the recession i know loads of people have lost there jobs) , is nice then im happy out

starlit

Deleted User wrote: »

So when you say "short guys", in or around how tall did you mean?

In terms of a short guy any of them shorter than me and those up to 5"6 I'd find a bit short. (I don't like head bashing or teeth bashing gets awkward!) Any guy taller than that to roughly 6 foot be about right for me.

Deleted User wrote: »

I come from a lower middle class family; my father is a self-employed worker and my mother is a teacher, so we don't have much of a social status. However all my siblings (including me, to some extent) have gone on to achieve Master degree, PHDs, and are working in relatively respected positions in various areas.

I'm in the same boat as you...except both parents were teachers since retired. Same here all my siblings my self included have gone on to do postgraduate study some of us did masters others didn't. One of which did a Phd.