The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 12:18am

blanch152 wrote: »

Nonsense. Kerry only won 38 All-Irelands because of the insitutional bias built in over a century.

If you truly want a fair and level competition, then splitting Kerry is on the agenda as much as Dublin, so is amalgamating small unsuccessful counties.

As I have said already, accept that principle and we can have a real discussion, not a discussion driven by the unhappiness of Mayo and Kerry fans.

But it isnt, that is nonsense logic. Any county can build that ethos if they so wish. This is not something that is only available to Kerry. Nobody else can follow dublins blueprint. To do so we would have to join up the rest of the country into 2 teams and rob numerous banks. Even then the travel involved would make it unworkable.

Amalgamating could be opted into if counties so wished. If they didnt then fair enough as it only affects themselves.

The only proper option available is to split dublin. It is laughable that you can see that, or at least, wont say it. Like you can admit it here. Doing so wont mean that it happens. Im pretty sure congress arent waiting on your admittance to start the process.

Mr. Incognito · 24-09-2019 8:26am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But it isnt, that is nonsense logic. Any county can build that ethos if they so wish. This is not something that is only available to Kerry. Nobody else can follow dublins blueprint. To do so we would have to join up the rest of the country into 2 teams and rob numerous banks. Even then the travel involved would make it unworkable.

Amalgamating could be opted into if counties so wished. If they didnt then fair enough as it only affects themselves.

The only proper option available is to split dublin. It is laughable that you can see that, or at least, wont say it. Like you can admit it here. Doing so wont mean that it happens. Im pretty sure congress arent waiting on your admittance to start the process.

The only proper option is to turn off the cash and allocate it to counties where it is needed

bruschi · 24-09-2019 8:29am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A GPO is different to a GDA though?

no, much of the same thing.

There are 3 main titles being bandied about,

Games Promotion Officer
Games Development Administrator and
Games Development Officer

All do much the same thing once employed by a club. You then have a GDM (Games Development Manager) who oversees strategic plans within a region or county.

maestroamado · 24-09-2019 8:50am

risteard7 wrote: »

Stop supporting the GAA until it's fair game, simple as that.

This is exactly what i have done and that's more than 10 years ago.
Before that i be attending 4 or 5 championship matches each year and i usually attended final.
I was only ever at one back door game ever and this was because of local interested.
I am from one of the weaker counties and while the back door system worked well for a few years it should have being scrapped after 5 years max.
My view of back door system is "IT GAVE THE STRONGER COUNTIES 2nd CHANCE TO GO THROUGH TO BIGGER GLORY, IT GAVE THE WEAKER COUNTIES A FAIR CHANCE OF BEING BEATING 2 TIMES IN KNOCK OUT COMPETITION"
This is the only reason i distanced myself as it simply was not working for me.
I do not have facts but i think a few counties hardly ever won wither of their two championship, i be interested if some knows the facts of this or where to check same.

ArielAtom · 24-09-2019 8:50am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A GPO is different to a GDA though?

Here is a link that gives a bit of of information. I was corrected a while back when I used a title so can't really answer your question.

https://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/administrators/games-development-personnel

dunnerc · 24-09-2019 8:51am

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I do think there are valid questions about funding in the GAA. MayoAreMagic is not asking them.

100% agreed ref funding , also think home games for Dublin needs to be addressed, but splitting Dublin is not the way to go .

beggars_bush · 24-09-2019 9:04am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Not particularly. Im comfortable in the knowledge that mayo had the best county team in the country in the mid 2010s. Dublin are not a county team. They are a financially doped provincial side. Only a fool would take their financial five in a row seriously or count any of those wins as meaningful.
History will treat the period from 2013 on with derision and scorn, you cant see it coming because you are too caught up in your own hubris.
Id much rather mayos record to be honest.

Dublin are now a province, recognised by the GAA
Funded as such, from central GAA
They have a bigger sponsorship deal than the GAA have themselves
They should be in the Railway Cup

beggars_bush · 24-09-2019 9:07am

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is a nice honour. Surprisingly few sports people have been awarded it. Heffo, Brian O'Driscoll, John Giles, Ronnie Delaney. Think that's all.

None of the councillors who were part of the successful attempt to remove flags and banners had the courage to vote against.

No doubt they will also be there on Sunday trying to bask in the glow. I can see this Lord Mayor trying to take over the whole thing.

His tweets slagging the Kerry mayor were fkn infantile. He must think we are all stupid.

Jack Charlton, a great Dub

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 9:09am

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The only proper option is to turn off the cash and allocate it to counties where it is needed

If you do that you stop kids getting to play. To get higher standards and develop the game we need more playing, not less. Now some counties are probably close enough to being maxed out on their potential, give or take. Monaghan, kerry, mayo, tyrone and donegal come to mind. Obviously they can have good crops of players and still make plenty marginal gains, but in general, they have no massive steps to take in their development.
But others are not, and we are definitely missing a trick, in fact probably a few tricks, when populations of circa 130 odd thousand can get to the level they are at, while dublin, who have over 10 times that figure are only getting to a, relative to the figures at play, slightly higher level. There is potentially so much more there.
That is the funny thing, we kinda laud dublin for their achievements, but if you showed the setup to a neutral observer, with no knowledge of the thing, they would probably consider dublin to be a bit of a basket case, with one third of the population and yet only able to field one team.

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 9:19am

dunnerc wrote: »

100% agreed ref funding , also think home games for Dublin needs to be addressed, but splitting Dublin is not the way to go .

Well looking at the facts, it seems to be the best conclusion for all concerned. Ok dublin fans mightnt be happy, but when the dust settled, they would still have a team with a massive player base and a population of 5-6 times that of the likes of kerry and mayo. Like if you look at the players from the northside of dublin in the team today, that is one hell of a team, and it would challenge next year, undoubtedly.
So nobody is really getting shafted there, and the dub fans are getting far better treatment in that scenario, than everyone elses fans, and indeed, players, are getting in the current one.

Can you make a suggestion for a superior option for all concerned?

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 9:22am

beggars_bush wrote: »

Dublin are now a province, recognised by the GAA
Funded as such, from central GAA
They have a bigger sponsorship deal than the GAA have themselves
They should be in the Railway Cup

Objectively speaking, you are right. That is where they should be.
But nobody really wants that do they?

blanch152 · 24-09-2019 9:41am

gaffer91 wrote: »

The financial doping/ population/ home advantages are much bigger advantages to Dublin currently than the provincials are to Kerry (or ever have been).

The provincials can be done away with- Dublin will still have to be split.

The provincials only ever help in qualifying for the All-Ireland semi final/ quarters/ super 8s anyway- Dublin's unfair advantages benefit them for all games.

I would be as quick- I'm can see things in an unbiased way, unlike yourself.

The provincials can be done away with as above if that is your concern.

No, my primary motivation is to create a fair and level competition- I bear no animosity towards Dublin.

Again, Kerry don't have the same unfair advantages that Dublin have e.g financial doping, home advantage, population. Those are the reasons Dublin must be split, not just the current dominance.

We can have a proper conversation once you accept the principle that splitting Dublin only is necessary because of these unfair advantages.

Kerry have had structural and institutional bias in their favour for over a century, giving them many relatively easily won All-Irelands. They now have a psychological hold over the province of Munster, with only an occasional challenge from Cork to deal with.

Unlike you, who only sees Dublin as a problem, I am prepared to discuss creating an equal competition that would see several amalgamations as well as the splitting of Kerry and Dublin. Replacing a Dublin five-in-a-row with an asterixed Kerry six-in-a-row by just splitting Dublin is not a solution to anything. It is not possible to take your posts seriously until you acknowledge that there should be a multi-faceted approach to creating an equal competition.

Kerry cleverly took advantage of the structural bias in the competition throughout the 20th century to an extent that the Munster championship has become demoralised and effectively defunct. Even when Tipperary got a good team together in the last half-decade it didn't last and players dropped out because they couldn't see a path to provincial glory. Pretending that all is equal in Munster is disingenuous.

Dublin got their act together in recent years and built on their population advantage for the first time. The 2011 win was a struggle for that team to get there after 2009 and 2010, but when the once-in-a-generation players came along afterwards, that led to the five-in-a-row.

You can't fix a competition by nobbling the best team. Splitting Brazil for the World Cup would only make the other big countries - Germany, Argentina - more likely to win. It would do nothing for the rest of the world. Similarly, the attempts to put splitting Dublin on the agenda don't come from the Wicklows and Antrims of this world, they come from the Mayos and Kerrys who are bitterly envious of the Dubs success and want it for their own county.

The only genuine people on this are the ones who would be prepared to rip up tradition, split the most successful counties (Kerry and Dublin), amalgamate others and create a level field. Until that principle is accepted, it can clearly be seen that you and others are acting only out of naked self-interest for your own county.

blanch152 · 24-09-2019 9:46am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If you do that you stop kids getting to play. To get higher standards and develop the game we need more playing, not less. Now some counties are probably close enough to being maxed out on their potential, give or take. Monaghan, kerry, mayo, tyrone and donegal come to mind. Obviously they can have good crops of players and still make plenty marginal gains, but in general, they have no massive steps to take in their development.
But others are not, and we are definitely missing a trick, in fact probably a few tricks, when populations of circa 130 odd thousand can get to the level they are at, while dublin, who have over 10 times that figure are only getting to a, relative to the figures at play, slightly higher level. There is potentially so much more there.
That is the funny thing, we kinda laud dublin for their achievements, but if you showed the setup to a neutral observer, with no knowledge of the thing, they would probably consider dublin to be a bit of a basket case, with one third of the population and yet only able to field one team.

It is not possible to take you seriously when you push an agenda of splitting Dublin yet pepper your posts with snide backhanded compliments to Dublin, while refusing to acknowledge that they are a truly great football team and twist things to present them as underachieving.

dunnerc · 24-09-2019 9:49am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well looking at the facts, it seems to be the best conclusion for all concerned. Ok dublin fans mightnt be happy, but when the dust settled, they would still have a team with a massive player base and a population of 5-6 times that of the likes of kerry and mayo. Like if you look at the players from the northside of dublin in the team today, that is one hell of a team, and it would challenge next year, undoubtedly.
So nobody is really getting shafted there, and the dub fans are getting far better treatment in that scenario, than everyone elses fans, and indeed, players, are getting in the current one.

Can you make a suggestion for a superior option for all concerned?

blanch152 suggestion below , cheers blanch well said.

You can't fix a competition by nobbling the best team. Splitting Brazil for the World Cup would only make the other big countries - Germany, Argentina - more likely to win. It would do nothing for the rest of the world. Similarly, the attempts to put splitting Dublin on the agenda don't come from the Wicklows and Antrims of this world, they come from the Mayos and Kerrys who are bitterly envious of the Dubs success and want it for their own county.

The only genuine people on this are the ones who would be prepared to rip up tradition, split the most successful counties (Kerry and Dublin), amalgamate others and create a level field. Until that principle is accepted, it can clearly be seen that you and others are acting only out of naked self-interest for your own county.

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 10:00am

blanch152 wrote: »

It is not possible to take you seriously when you push an agenda of splitting Dublin yet pepper your posts with snide backhanded compliments to Dublin, while refusing to acknowledge that they are a truly great football team and twist things to present them as underachieving.

This is the problem. What I said is completely factual and not snide at all, but you just view it as picking on you. You are too precious about this thing to offer objective analysis.
Can you not see that one team having 10 times the resources of the next successful team, and there not being a huge amount between them on the playing field, is clearly quite wasteful of 900% of resources? It is simple logic, no need to be so b*tth*rt over it.

I have no problem stating the mayo team as we knew it is probably finished. If someone says that to me in a reasoned way, thet arent being snide. It is just the reality. Why cant you admit issues around dublin?

socruel · 24-09-2019 10:10am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well that is the thing. They tried and couldnt do it, hence bertie's bailout.
There is an awful lot of revisionism with dublin these days. The whole john horan volunteers spiel being a good example. Their volunteers failed to promote the game to the level other volunteers were doing, that was the problem in the first place. That isnt trying to be critical, it is just the way it went and maybe they needed help as regards working in a city etc, but bottom line, it is what ended up happening. It was unfortunate, you live and learn.
But this thing where guys turn around and say that their volunteers are the reason they are successful, and not the shedloads of extra cash, is a bit rich. It is unnecessarily inflammatory truth be told, to the taxpayers whose money actually was the thing that made the difference.

What reason would you attribute for Mayo's 48 provincial titles compared to Leitrim and Sligo meagre haul ?
What steps would you propose to address this imbalance ?

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 10:12am

dunnerc wrote: »

blanch152 suggestion below , cheers blanch well said.

You can't fix a competition by nobbling the best team. Splitting Brazil for the World Cup would only make the other big countries - Germany, Argentina - more likely to win. It would do nothing for the rest of the world. Similarly, the attempts to put splitting Dublin on the agenda don't come from the Wicklows and Antrims of this world, they come from the Mayos and Kerrys who are bitterly envious of the Dubs success and want it for their own county.

The only genuine people on this are the ones who would be prepared to rip up tradition, split the most successful counties (Kerry and Dublin), amalgamate others and create a level field. Until that principle is accepted, it can clearly be seen that you and others are acting only out of naked self-interest for your own county.

But that is completely flawed. Splitting kerry is nonsense. Any reasonable person can see that. They dont have a single resource that any other challenger cannot reproduce. Kerry is the model that should be rolled out everywhere else. Splitting it up makes no sense in the world and doesnt compare in the slightest with splitting Dublin.

That suggestion is purely reactionary and as far as I can see painfully disingenuous. Nobody suggested it until dublin being split was suggested. It has no basis in logic or even reality and has been debunked and derided countless times by journalists and sports writers.

As for naked self interest. Surely if thst was the case, Id want this to happen too...

Next

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 10:16am

socruel wrote: »

What reason would you attribute for Mayo's 48 provincial titles compared to Leitrim and Sligo meagre haul ?
What steps would you propose to address this imbalance ?

I have already offered steps to address it.
What steps would you suggest to address their population and funding difference to dublin?

Strumms · 24-09-2019 10:25am

socruel wrote: »

What reason would you attribute for Mayo's 48 provincial titles compared to Leitrim and Sligo meagre haul ?
What steps would you propose to address this imbalance ?

He’ll address it, by ignoring it.

Also ignoring the number of Dublin clubs, players etc that any funding needs to cover, ignoring that all players and management in the senior setup are either in full time employment or studying. So called professionalism eh...

dunnerc · 24-09-2019 10:26am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

This is the problem. What I said is completely factual and not snide at all, but you just view it as picking on you. You are too precious about this thing to offer objective analysis.
Can you not see that one team having 10 times the resources of the next successful team, and there not being a huge amount between them on the playing field, is clearly quite wasteful of 900% of resources? It is simple logic, no need to be so b*tth*rt over it.

I have no problem stating the mayo team as we knew it is probably finished. If someone says that to me in a reasoned way, thet arent being snide. It is just the reality. Why cant you admit issues around dublin?

Why cant you admit you are anti Dublin ? Waterford and Limerick havnt won a Munster title in well over a 100 years , Tipp in over 80 years
Why cant you admit Munster is a basket case ? Do you not care about Munster and the domination of Kerry in Munster ? What is your solution to the Munster farce ? Oh wait Dublin is the only Problem in the GAA

High Fidelity · 24-09-2019 10:30am

I see Horan, referencing population per head in relation to the GAA funding model.

One thing that troubles me about the 18 mill figure in GDF you see trotted out for Dublin is it doesn't mention the accumulative population. 18 mill is a fine figure but if you accumulate the population over the same period its less then a euro a head. Far lower then many GAA county are currently and historically received from the GAA pro rata.

Dublin at the moment are not receiving anywhere near the highest funding pro rata in GDF.

The break down form the last set of accounts is below:

Monaghan GDF 124.000, Population of Monaghan 60.483 = 2.05 per head.

Dublin GDF 1.3 mill, population 1.34 mill, ratio = 97 cent per head.

Kerry GDF 197.600 euro, population of Kerry 147.000, ratio = 1.34 euro per head.

Mayo GDF 134.29 euro, population of Mayo, 130.5k, ratio = 1.02 euro per head.

Tyrone GDF 119.000 euro, population 177.9k = 66 cent per head

Galway GDF 184.4k euro, population 258.0k = 71cent per head.

Donegal GDF 130.2k euro, population 159.1k = 81 cent per head.

Kildare GDF 341.3k euro, population 222.5k = 1.53 euro per head

Roscommon GDF, 146k euro, population 66.5k = 2.2 euro per head.

Cork GDF, 249k euro, population 542k = 45 cent per head.

Meath GDF, 367.4k, population 195.0 = 1.88 euro per head.

* Worth noting the above figures dont include, provincial grants given by provincial councils, for funding GDO's, Dublin are the only county not to receive this. Thus the figure for GDF above is actually bigger for every other county except Dublin.

Happyilylost · 24-09-2019 10:35am

dunnerc wrote: »

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well looking at the facts, it seems to be the best conclusion for all concerned. Ok dublin fans mightnt be happy, but when the dust settled, they would still have a team with a massive player base and a population of 5-6 times that of the likes of kerry and mayo. Like if you look at the players from the northside of dublin in the team today, that is one hell of a team, and it would challenge next year, undoubtedly.
So nobody is really getting shafted there, and the dub fans are getting far better treatment in that scenario, than everyone elses fans, and indeed, players, are getting in the current one.

Can you make a suggestion for a superior option for all concerned?

blanch152 suggestion below , cheers blanch well said.

You can't fix a competition by nobbling the best team. Splitting Brazil for the World Cup would only make the other big countries - Germany, Argentina - more likely to win. It would do nothing for the rest of the world. Similarly, the attempts to put splitting Dublin on the agenda don't come from the Wicklows and Antrims of this world, they come from the Mayos and Kerrys who are bitterly envious of the Dubs success and want it for their own county.

The only genuine people on this are the ones who would be prepared to rip up tradition, split the most successful counties (Kerry and Dublin), amalgamate others and create a level field. Until that principle is accepted, it can clearly be seen that you and others are acting only out of naked self-interest for your own county.

Splitting or amalgamating will never be the answer. Harsh reality is some counties will rarely and in some instances never be able to compete consistently for Sam/Liam. Tiered system is the long term answer where teams will compete at their level but also be given the opportunity to rise through the ranks to compete at a higher level if they are able. Main issue is the GAA need to ensure any lower division is given the exposure it is needed to ensure it is not lost into the shadows of the GAA. Equal TV/media exposure.

Funding needs to be reviewed and more transparency from the GAA as to how/why it is distributed. The same way the GAA invested in inner city parts of Dublin the same investment is needed in rural Ireland to stop the decline in player numbers leading to club amalgamations.

I have spoken about Dublin and Croke Park but there is no long tem or short term solution to it so it will have to remain.

dunnerc · 24-09-2019 10:42am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I have already offered steps to address it.
What steps would you suggest to address their population and funding difference to dublin?

What steps would you suggest to address the population difference of Galway 258,000 v Sligo 64,000 . Roscommon 65,000 and Leitrim 32,000 ?

dunnerc · 24-09-2019 10:45am

Happyilylost wrote: »

dunnerc wrote: »

Splitting or amalgamating will never be the answer. Harsh reality is some counties will rarely and in some instances never be able to compete consistently for Sam/Liam. Tiered system is the long term answer where teams will compete at their level but also be given the opportunity to rise through the ranks to compete at a higher level if they are able. Main issue is the GAA need to ensure any lower division is given the exposure it is needed to ensure it is not lost into the shadows of the GAA. Equal TV/media exposure.

Funding needs to be reviewed and more transparency from the GAA as to how/why it is distributed. The same way the GAA invested in inner city parts of Dublin the same investment is needed in rural Ireland to stop the decline in player numbers leading to club amalgamations.

I have spoken about Dublin and Croke Park but there is no long tem or short term solution to it so it will have to remain.

AH here your making to much sense lol.....:D

socruel · 24-09-2019 11:09am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I have already offered steps to address it.
What steps would you suggest to address their population and funding difference to dublin?

I dont believe you have admitted to the population advantages Mayo benefits from in Connacht, perhaps i missed that ?

In regard to your 2nd sentence with a population of 4.7 million you could establish 50 entirely new franchises with exactly equal populations of 94,000 people each. Part of Mayo would be re designated as Sligo.

It is the logical end point of your argument. So i'm assuming you are in favour. Thanks, look forward to your response to advantages Mayo benefits from.

gormdubhgorm · 24-09-2019 11:45am

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is a nice honour. Surprisingly few sports people have been awarded it. Heffo, Brian O'Driscoll, John Giles, Ronnie Delaney. Think that's all.

None of the councillors who were part of the successful attempt to remove flags and banners had the courage to vote against.

No doubt they will also be there on Sunday trying to bask in the glow. I can see this Lord Mayor trying to take over the whole thing.

His tweets slagging the Kerry mayor were fkn infantile. He must think we are all stupid.

'Big jack' got the freedom of Dublin as well in 94 Heffo got it ten years after him in 04

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_City_of_Dublin

The list is a bit mad both the Obama's got it for some reason!

Floppybits · 24-09-2019 11:58am

dunnerc wrote: »

What steps would you suggest to address the population difference of Galway 258,000 v Sligo 64,000 . Roscommon 65,000 and Leitrim 32,000 ?

Probably send players from Dublin who are inter county standard but not breaking into the Dublin Panel to these counties. Dublin could be a feeder to the other counties.

gormdubhgorm · 24-09-2019 12:05pm

Floppybits wrote: »

Probably send players from Dublin who are inter county standard but not breaking into the Dublin Panel to these counties. Dublin could be a feeder to the other counties.

I suggested that before 4/5 Dub players should be allowed to play for other counties. Like the Irish basketball clubs used to do with a quota of American players.
People did not seem to like the suggestion though.

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 12:17pm

Strumms wrote: »

He’ll address it, by ignoring it.

Also ignoring the number of Dublin clubs, players etc that any funding needs to cover, ignoring that all players and management in the senior setup are either in full time employment or studying. So called professionalism eh...

100% incorrect and untrue. I have addressed it numerous times. However people are simply using this to change the subject. If I start talking about that, again, they move away from the subject at hand. It is a smokescreen.

As for the rest of your post I have not ignored any part of what you said. I referenced keeping funding for kids in dublin 2-3 times in the last few posts alone.
Re professionalism, ive not made any point about it here.

You have just invented a whole stance for me. Thanks, but I will stick to my own.

MayoAreMagic · 24-09-2019 12:28pm

Happyilylost wrote: »

dunnerc wrote: »

Splitting or amalgamating will never be the answer. Harsh reality is some counties will rarely and in some instances never be able to compete consistently for Sam/Liam. Tiered system is the long term answer where teams will compete at their level but also be given the opportunity to rise through the ranks to compete at a higher level if they are able. Main issue is the GAA need to ensure any lower division is given the exposure it is needed to ensure it is not lost into the shadows of the GAA. Equal TV/media exposure.

Funding needs to be reviewed and more transparency from the GAA as to how/why it is distributed. The same way the GAA invested in inner city parts of Dublin the same investment is needed in rural Ireland to stop the decline in player numbers leading to club amalgamations.

I have spoken about Dublin and Croke Park but there is no long tem or short term solution to it so it will have to remain.

But that harsh reality was also the case before dublin got all that cash to change that harsh reality.
Split dublin and the gaa is in a great position. You could have 6-7 teams capable of winning the all ireland and leinster gets a new lease of life. I get you mightnt like it, but it is hard to deny that it is a move that would reinvigorate the sport.

An honest question - how many of these procession all irelands do dublin need to win before you would admit that there could be a serious problem for the sport? Thet already have 7 out of 9. If they win the next 2 out of 3? 3 out of 4? 5 out of 5? How flawed would that make this cyclical argument? Would you still push it? How about the golden generation? Reduced to nonsense at that point surely? But yet, some still claim that kerry should be split also, which is even more ludicrous.

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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1