Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

25-09-2020 12:20pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

M&S and Iceland are both examples of how low quality and very highly processed+overpackaged UK food is,

while I prefer that there be more competition in retail as its (in theory) should be good for consumers, these UK chains leaving would not be a loss, if anything a gain from food quality available to customers point of view.

Consumers will not be happy when (should that be if) the cheaper UK sources food disappears from the shelves and the local producers start price gouging as their main competition is gone.
As for excessive packaging & processing, Irish producers are every bit as guilty as every other producer.

Sam Russell · 25-09-2020 12:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Consumers will not be happy when (should that be if) the cheaper UK sources food disappears from the shelves and the local producers start price gouging as their main competition is gone.
As for excessive packaging & processing, Irish producers are every bit as guilty as every other producer.

The main competitors to the UK sources are Lidl, Aldi, Dunnes, and Musgraves (Supervalu etc.).

Most of the food imports from the UK are factory mass produced convenience stuff we should not be eating anyway.

25-09-2020 12:27pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The main competitors to the UK sources are Lidl, Aldi, Dunnes, and Musgraves (Supervalu etc.).

Most of the food imports from the UK are factory mass produced convenience stuff we should not be eating anyway.

A significant of which source the raw produce from Ireland.

Snickers Man · 25-09-2020 1:30pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Gove confirms there will effectively be a regulatory border between Kent and the rest of England:

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1308755603247034368

Hot News Flash!!!

Ealing Studios to remake classic 1948 satire "Passport to Pimlico" as "Passport to Pratt's Bottom"

(There really is such a place. And.......it's in Kent

)

Igotadose · 25-09-2020 2:07pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The main competitors to the UK sources are Lidl, Aldi, Dunnes, and Musgraves (Supervalu etc.).

Most of the food imports from the UK are factory mass produced convenience stuff we should not be eating anyway.

Hm. What about cleaning products, paper products, children's stuff, non-prescription medicines...

It's not just food, one buys a lot of stuff at the grocery, though I do agree with your sentiment.

Igotadose · 25-09-2020 2:08pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Gove confirms there will effectively be a regulatory border between Kent and the rest of England:

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1308755603247034368

Some hilarious comments on the thread. I particularly liked "Sounds like Kent needs a backstop." And, "The truckers will call it a Kermit."

roosterman71 · 25-09-2020 2:34pm

I see even the weather is going to be impacted by Brexit

Ireland bids to get European weather forecasting centre relocated from the UK to Dublin

I told ya · 25-09-2020 3:57pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/25/sir-jim-ratcliffe-uks-richest-person-moves-to-tax-free-monaco-brexit-ineos-domicile

Another ardent Brexiter exits the UK. Clearly a case of do as I say, not as I do.

If Brexit is such a great idea why leave?

They certainly lead the masses up the garden path.

Seth Brundle · 25-09-2020 5:11pm

I told ya wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/25/sir-jim-ratcliffe-uks-richest-person-moves-to-tax-free-monaco-brexit-ineos-domicile

Another ardent Brexiter exits the UK. Clearly a case of do as I say, not as I do.

If Brexit is such a great idea why leave?

They certainly lead the masses up the garden path.

If the UK leave without a deal then this would suit those wealthy enough to avoid a large tax bill. So, does he know something we don't? Are the UK going to agree to a deal with the EU?

Sam Russell · 25-09-2020 6:11pm

I told ya wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/25/sir-jim-ratcliffe-uks-richest-person-moves-to-tax-free-monaco-brexit-ineos-domicile

Another ardent Brexiter exits the UK. Clearly a case of do as I say, not as I do.

If Brexit is such a great idea why leave?

They certainly lead the masses up the garden path.

He supported Brexit 'declaring that the UK would thrive without red tape from Brussels.' Unfortunately, leaving the single market and the customs union will have the exact opposite effect, costing UK businesses huge amounts, possibly making exports to the EU uneconomic.

briany · 25-09-2020 9:34pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

He supported Brexit 'declaring that the UK would thrive without red tape from Brussels.' Unfortunately, leaving the single market and the customs union will have the exact opposite effect, costing UK businesses huge amounts, possibly making exports to the EU uneconomic.

Yes, the point of a trade agreement is surely to reduce red tape and put in place a set of rules that both sides abide by thereby streamlining the process of moving goods and services between two countries such that they remain compatible with each others' domestic markets.

Whatever Jim Ratcliffe is defining as 'red tape' would surely exist in any trading agreement being that no trade agreement is written on the back of a fag packet. It's a long document filled with legalese on the minutiae of what you can and cannot do and details on the how to do or not to do it.

I suspect that Ratcliffe is defining 'red tape' twofold. The first is what EU laws which affect him and his ability to make as much money as possible, hence his move to the tax haven of Monaco. The second is a bit of dog whistle - it's an appeal to the deep suspicion of the continent which has lived in the British psyche for centuries - a hangover of the religious wars of Early modern times all the way up to the last two world wars which are within living memory. It's why red tape from Brussels will always be far more emotive to the average Britisher than red tape from Washington or red tape from Tokyo. There aren't the same historical qualms.

It's this suspicion of the continent through which British people have funneled their anger on issues which aren't even related and is a main driver of Brexit in the first place.

ancapailldorcha · 25-09-2020 9:41pm

briany wrote: »

Yes, the point of a trade agreement is surely to reduce red tape and put in place a set of rules that both sides abide by thereby streamlining the process of moving goods and services between two countries such that they remain compatible with each others' domestic markets.

Whatever Jim Ratcliffe is defining as 'red tape' would surely exist in any trading agreement being that no trade agreement is written on the back of a fag packet. It's a long document filled with legalese on the minutiae of what you can and cannot do and details on the how to do or not to do it.

I suspect that Ratcliffe is defining 'red tape' twofold. The first is what EU laws which affect him and his ability to make as much money as possible, hence his move to the tax haven of Monaco. The second is a bit of dog whistle - it's an appeal to the deep suspicion of the continent which has lived in the British psyche for centuries - a hangover of the religious wars of Early modern times all the way up to the last two world wars which are within living memory. It's why red tape from Brussels will always be far more emotive to the average Britisher than red tape from Washington or red tape from Tokyo. There aren't the same historical qualms.

It's this suspicion of the continent through which British people have funneled their anger on issues which aren't even related and is a main driver of Brexit in the first place.

The point of a trade agreement is to increase the volume of trade between the signatory nations.

This is achieved by agreeing on limits to state aid, tariffs and regulations along with an arbitration mechanism in case things go awry.

Ratcliffe is ultimately looking out for himself here which is a consistent theme amongst Brexiter businessmen who don't need to be resident in the UK.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-09-2020 10:11pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Remember when Brexiteers told us they dont need Galileo EU programme and will make their own?

...

Yet another Brexit lie exposed with tons of money wasted.

It's Brexit in microcosm. Some great comments.

But our best idea that the entirety of our government could posit was to buy something with satellites in the name, even though they did not offer anything even remotely like the services we'd miss out on.

The GPS debacle pretty much is just a perfect mini-tableau of the entire Brexit saga.
...

I thought first it was a control issue and the UK would settle for being the big fish in the EFTA pond, then it was going to be a customs union and a US trade deal, now the US have been told to shut up about Ireland or you'll walk away and it's hoist the sails on HMS Crimson Permanent Assurance.
...

Indeed. Which is why Brexiteers promised exactly that - "No one is talking about leaving the customs union", "Only an idiot would leave the single market", etc, etc.

They fooled enough gullible people to secure a small majority and only then revealed it was bait and switch.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-09-2020 10:29pm

A little more on the Kent permits*.

Brexit travel permits designed to avoid 7,000-lorry jams come January depend on software that won't be finished till April A major concern for the industry is that legal liabilities for customs compliance rest with the driver.

They will only be issued to truck drivers who get a green or amber rating from the online Smart Freight system, which the government has yet to introduce.

One of the comments might be a prediction given how things have been managed so far. "We have semi-organised facilities for queuing traffic inside Kent. Do we now need similar facilities just outside Kent for lorries to use until they have permission to join the queues inside Kent?"

*Kent permits - "I bet they end up referred to as Kermits. Although that set of Muppets would probably have it working on time."

Strazdas · 25-09-2020 10:34pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

A little more on the Kent permits*.

Brexit travel permits designed to avoid 7,000-lorry jams come January depend on software that won't be finished till April A major concern for the industry is that legal liabilities for customs compliance rest with the driver.

They will only be issued to truck drivers who get a green or amber rating from the online Smart Freight system, which the government has yet to introduce.

One of the comments might be a prediction given how things have been managed so far. "We have semi-organised facilities for queuing traffic inside Kent. Do we now need similar facilities just outside Kent for lorries to use until they have permission to join the queues inside Kent?"

*Kent permits - "I bet they end up referred to as Kermits. Although that set of Muppets would probably have it working on time."

And I've seen a comment from a software expert on Twitter saying he would be very sceptical the system software could be ready by April. He thinks that's just a notional date they've invented.

This UK border is going to be one hell of a shambles, isn't it?

Spanish Eyes · 25-09-2020 10:37pm

Really at this stage we might just have to let the UK at it and see how it pans out.

A deal is not what they want, because it is not on their terms I think.

Time to put on the EU big boy/girl pants now and call their bluff. The hubris and arrogance of the UK is a sight to behold though. IMO.

Leroy42 · 25-09-2020 11:07pm

Strazdas wrote: »

And I've seen a comment from a software expert on Twitter saying he would be very sceptical the system software could be ready by April. He thinks that's just a notional date they've invented.

This UK border is going to be one hell of a shambles, isn't it?

Not sure what could take till April, its a simple Google form really. Fill in all the boxes, if all yes then viola, cert is produced. If you are stopped without a permit, or reach the terminal/truck park without one, instant fine.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-09-2020 11:10pm

Strazdas wrote: »

And I've seen a comment from a software expert on Twitter saying he would be very sceptical the system software could be ready by April. He thinks that's just a notional date they've invented.

This UK border is going to be one hell of a shambles, isn't it?

Travelling from Belfast to Gibraltar today is seamless. How many check points will there be in January ?

Here's the UK government Infrastructure and Projects Authority report. I didn't realise HM Customs is in the middle of setting up 13 regional centres. Good thing they are doing it in a quiet period.

Figure 5 on page 12 or go to Annex D and see how many Green projects you can see.

Link for if you want to dig through Information on the progress of projects in the Government Major Projects Portfolio.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-09-2020 11:29pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not sure what could take till April, its a simple Google form really. Fill in all the boxes, if all yes then viola, cert is produced. If you are stopped without a permit, or reach the terminal/truck park without one, instant fine.

Already answered. Truck drivers are already taking umbrage that they would be the fall guy. And this system depends on another that won't be available until April. And the UK Govt has a terrible record on software projects.

All governments do but the UK had been going full tilt on 'hold my beer'. The MOD recruitment program by capita is just spectacular. Insane costs and delays in computerising a process that's been in place since 1664. Half of those who applied dropped out before being fully processed.

Customs and Tax upgrades are years late and now goalposts are now moving in random directions. Now consider that the best and brightest are already working on existing projects. New projects on the otherhand... and lots of outsourcing without scrutiny ...

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

A major concern for the industry is that legal liabilities for customs compliance rest with the driver.

They will only be issued to truck drivers who get a green or amber rating from the online Smart Freight system, which the government has yet to introduce.

micosoft · 26-09-2020 9:32am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not sure what could take till April, its a simple Google form really. Fill in all the boxes, if all yes then viola, cert is produced. If you are stopped without a permit, or reach the terminal/truck park without one, instant fine.

That's exactly how systems like this do not work and frankly this is the sort of magical thinking that gets Brexiteers into trouble "I know absolutely nothing of this topic/technology but I'll make a wild claim based on my non-existent knowledge to make magic borders work".

Strazdas · 26-09-2020 3:36pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Well if it's so simple then why can't trucks going to NI do it instead of the much much larger volume of traffic going to/from Calais.

The Brexiteers shot themselves in the foot yet again and took yet another turn for hardest Brexit possible.

Gove said this week that he believes 50% of truck drivers will have the wrong paperwork. It's not a case of having a simple form with a stamp on it or something. We're talking about reams of paperwork and if any of it is incorrect, the truck can't board the ferry (it would be like turning up at an airport with no passport).

Imreoir2 · 26-09-2020 3:47pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Gove said this week that he believes 50% of truck drivers will have the wrong paperwork. It's not a case of having a simple form with a stamp on it or something. We're talking about reams of paperwork and if any of it is incorrect, the truck can't board the ferry (it would be like turning up at an airport with no passport).

You have to have identifying paperwork and all relevant documentation for each part of the load you are carrying, right? That can be loads and loads of stuff, with lots of chances for mistakes to be made, and significant cost involved in preparing in the first place, and delays resulting from processing at the border. Gettng rid of all that stuff is one of the big reasons the Single Market was created in the first place, if it was just a little form there would have been no need.

Capt'n Midnight · 26-09-2020 4:02pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Gove said this week that he believes 50% of truck drivers will have the wrong paperwork. It's not a case of having a simple form with a stamp on it or something. We're talking about reams of paperwork and if any of it is incorrect, the truck can't board the ferry (it would be like turning up at an airport with no passport).

If only there were advice centres the drivers could go to.

https://www.lloydsloadinglist.com/freight-directory/news/UK-government-warns-of-looming-freight-and-border-chaos/77433.htm#.X29V2zW0XDc

calls for advice centres to be set up across the country, with 39 sites identified at truck stop and service stations on all main motorways including the M6, M40, M1 and M20. These should be equipped with printers to help hauliers who do not have the right documentation prepare for their onward journey to ports in Kent, Portsmouth, Holyhead and Felixstowe among others, it says. But industry sources told The Guardian that if these sites don’t also have customs clearance at these sites then “there isn’t much point to them”.

With fewer than four months to go before the end of the Brexit transition period on 31 December, the document also notes that ongoing work at the Department for Transport to provide the advice centres “is currently unfunded” with a parallel treasury bid for £18.5m still in development.

Strazdas · 26-09-2020 4:08pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You have to have identifying paperwork and all relevant documentation for each part of the load you are carrying, right? That can be loads and loads of stuff, with lots of chances for mistakes to be made, and significant cost involved in preparing in the first place, and delays resulting from processing at the border. Gettng rid of all that stuff is one of the big reasons the Single Market was created in the first place, if it was just a little form there would have been no need.

Yes, everything on board the truck has to be documented in detail but there are also different types of customs declarations. So we're talking pages and pages of documentation, not just a simple single sheet page you wave at the customs officers. Which is why many truckers will show up with one type of customs declaration, but not the correct one, or with some forms missing or incorrectly filled out.

It sounds like a recipe for absolute chaos on Jan 1st. Many exporters and drivers won't have a clue what forms to use. The new customs officials themselves are bound to be very confused and make many mistakes.

Only a bunch of demented lunatics would try and introduce such borders and customs checks out of nowhere (hello Brexiteers / Leave voters).

26-09-2020 4:25pm

And it's completely predictable. It's been known about since 2016. It's going to be shltshow no matter what happens.

J Mysterio · 26-09-2020 7:00pm

Uhhhh. Whenever you think things are as bad as they could be, disabuse yourself of that notion. UK continue to plumb new depths of depravity.

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1309903624374546433

CelticRambler · 26-09-2020 7:22pm

There seems to be a misconception (amongst Brexit ministers, at least) around what truck drivers do. Their job is to pick up a load from one place and deliver it to another. In the vast majority of cases, unless it's a liquid cargo, dangerous goods, or a time/temperature sensitive product, or some other cargo the characteristics or which would affect, or be affected by, the vehicle's journey from A to B, the driver does not need to know what's in the boxes behind him. All he needs is a sheaf of papers that have been prepared by the sender to hand to a customs officer or the person receiving the delivery.

This is how the Kent Access Permit will fall to pieces: independent hauliers, picking up loads at short notice, possibly from more than one sender, cannot be expected to know what precise customs declarations will be needed for each consignment. So hauliers will have to insist on the exporting business applying for the Access Permit on their behalf, which is undoubtedly going to create a conflict of responsibility - will an exporter want to apply for a permit for a third party? If they don't, will drivers want to hang around the exporter's site while their dispatcher confirms with HMR&C what declarations are needed? When (when) there are delays due to incomplete paperwork, who'll pay the driver's wages? Will it be easier for businesses to go back to using their own trucks and drivers, killing off the private haulage industry (what's left of it, once the bigger companies have snapped up the EU permits) ...

All-in-all, it's just another example of this government's quite remarkable talent for finding the most unworkable solution to a problem of their own making.

Enzokk · 26-09-2020 7:32pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Uhhhh. Whenever you think things are as bad as they could be, disabuse yourself of that notion. UK continue to plumb new depths of depravity.

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1309903624374546433

Dead cat surely. I would have scoffed at this suggestion a few months ago but now I am not so sure. It would be a good way to distract their harshest critics and get them frothing at the mouth instead of keeping the focus on Covid-19.

J Mysterio · 26-09-2020 8:04pm

Enzokk wrote: »

Dead cat surely. I would have scoffed at this suggestion a few months ago but now I am not so sure. It would be a good way to distract their harshest critics and get them frothing at the mouth instead of keeping the focus on Covid-19.

I don't see how the focus can shift from Covid or Brexit. They are both front and centre. I also don't see how this can be classed as dead cat. Installing a partisan tabloid editor from the worst rag in the UK to the body that oversees journalism... as if it wasn't already bad enough.

This appointment screams 'not just more of the same please, but let's go harder!'

Enzokk · 26-09-2020 8:16pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

I don't see how the focus can shift from Covid or Brexit. They are both front and centre. I also don't see how this can be classed as dead cat. Installing a partisan tabloid editor from the worst rag in the UK to the body that oversees journalism... as if it wasn't already bad enough.

This appointment screams 'not just more of the same please, but let's go harder!'

It is not always going to work, but getting the other side worked up about it could be the aim of the game as well.

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1309921518730858497?s=20

It would be a good distraction for tomorrow's shows to be talking about Paul Dacre instead of Covid-19 or the Brexit preparations.

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1309910190897197063?s=20

This is just what is being proposed and the way I see it I agree. Dacre was able to gaslight the UK public into voting for Brexit with his headlines about immigrants and OFCOM did or could do nothing. If Brexit turns out as bad as we believe I don't see Johnson or his government lasting a year without a deal so any new government can get rid of him again.

Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

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