Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Capt'n Midnight

CelticRambler wrote: »

There seems to be a misconception (amongst Brexit ministers, at least) around what truck drivers do. Their job is to pick up a load from one place and deliver it to another. In the vast majority of cases, unless it's a liquid cargo, dangerous goods, or a time/temperature sensitive product, or some other cargo the characteristics or which would affect, or be affected by, the vehicle's journey from A to B, the driver does not need to know what's in the boxes behind him. All he needs is a sheaf of papers that have been prepared by the sender to hand to a customs officer or the person receiving the delivery.

Just a reminder about the ECMT permits. It’s illegal to not have the right documents for the journey. Your driver can be fined for not carrying them.


10,000 trucks a day through Dover.

UK has 984 annual permits and 2,832 ones that expire after a month and it's an OECD thing not an EU one. Enough for up to 5% of what's needed. Operators are restricted to three trips while abroad. Permit is transferable, but only to another vehicle of similar type belonging to the same company and only once they return to UK. So long delays mean they can't handover the baton. No Cabotage so no handy jobs to offset costs and probably more empty trucks taking up space on the ferries.

Also businesses going through France would need their own permits.



A 27-acre site is being built to handle trucks amid fears that new trade rules will slow freight movement.
It has been nicknamed the “Farage Garage” after the pro-Brexit campaigner Nigel Farage.

J Mysterio

Enzokk wrote: »

It is not always going to work, but getting the other side worked up about it could be the aim of the game as well.

This is just what is being proposed and the way I see it I agree. Dacre was able to gaslight the UK public into voting for Brexit with his headlines about immigrants and OFCOM did or could do nothing. If Brexit turns out as bad as we believe I don't see Johnson or his government lasting a year without a deal so any new government can get rid of him again.

The other side (deceny, reasonableness, justice) should be worked up! It's imperative that they are, and that they wake up quick and get to it. Such a political appointment is beyond brazen.

It's not the case that once a new government comes in that everything can just be fixed. Lasting damage is being done here to the very fabric of the UK.

Starmer hasn't impressed at all since becoming leader, largely avoiding the hard issues and 'letting the Tories own it' while he stands back and waits. The problem though is that the Tories are owning it and need to be stopped now!

It's the speed with which the institutions of the UK are being corrupted that is so amazing and horrifying to witness. Nothing is sacred, no institution too precious, no lie too big or obvious.

https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1309909393195008001

Just the other day we had the UK AG supporting breaking international law for the boss. The top civil servant in justice resigned. How 'Braverman' has managed to not resign or be pushed is beyond me. Government have simply 'taken a 'bullish approach' to all standards and matters of morality and integrity, and everything is being corrupted.

The English civil service has been gutted and made impotent. As those with character step down they leave a vacuum behind them. Cummings is hiring "weirdos" to help. The fundamentals of the UK are being damaged.

allthedoyles

As of now the only paperwork required by hauliers when exporting from UK to the Republic is a CMR form.
This is basically just product ,consignee, consignor and description of goods value etc.
Freedom of movement , freedom of goods etc. Single market , Customs Union etc.
I don't believe Irish hauliers will travel unless the above continues.
There are hauliers in the NOI who have agreements with hauliers in the ROI and I'm confident an agreement will be reached between them if it's no deal.

Geuze

[QUOTE=
It has been nicknamed the “Farage Garage” after the pro-Brexit campaigner Nigel Farage.[/QUOTE]

I am genuinely worried about trade, but can I just say that this is very funny.

BonnieSituation

J Mysterio wrote: »

The other side (deceny, reasonableness, justice) should be worked up! It's imperative that they are, and that they wake up quick and get to it. Such a political appointment is beyond brazen.

It's not the case that once a new government comes in that everything can just be fixed. Lasting damage is being done here to the very fabric of the UK.

Starmer hasn't impressed at all since becoming leader, largely avoiding the hard issues and 'letting the Tories own it' while he stands back and waits. The problem though is that the Tories are owning it and need to be stopped now!

It's the speed with which the institutions of the UK are being corrupted that is so amazing and horrifying to witness. Nothing is sacred, no institution too precious, no lie too big or obvious.


Just the other day we had the UK AG supporting breaking international law for the boss. The top civil servant in justice resigned. How 'Braverman' has managed to not resign or be pushed is beyond me. Government have simply 'taken a 'bullish approach' to all standards and matters of morality and integrity, and everything is being corrupted.

The English civil service has been gutted and made impotent. As those with character step down they leave a vacuum behind them. Cummings is hiring "weirdos" to help. The fundamentals of the UK are being damaged.

It's funny you say that about Starmer. He is impressive, on his own, but I don't think he or anyone would have thought that the Tories would go so Trumpian so quickly and so forcefully.

The thing is, the media in the UK is so complicit, that you barely here from Starmer outside of the Guardian, Channel 4 and Sky News.

There was a point over the summer where I genuinely heard or saw nothing of him for the guts of 3 months and I read and watch a lot of news.

We saw how "impressive" E Milliband was against BJ last week, but sure, instead of it acting like a fulcrum for the media to pile on it just drifted out with a whimper like everything else that makes BJ look weak or useless.

Labour won't be able to lay a glove on the Tories in that environment, so they may as well just keep tapping away as best they can. Like in the US, where they are backing Biden, the middle classes are about to get the biggest fright of their lives, so they'll be soon looking for alternatives and that's really when Starmer needs to stand up.

In UK politics, there is literally only Starmer and Sturgeon against the Tories. Think about that...

Atlantic Dawn

Why can't trucks drive through France on a Sunday? Whatever about French drivers, France has no right whatsoever to dictate the movement of foreign drivers.

BonnieSituation

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why can't trucks drive through France on a Sunday? Whatever about French drivers, France has no right whatsoever to dictate the movement of foreign drivers.

Why don't they?

Strazdas

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why can't trucks drive through France on a Sunday? Whatever about French drivers, France has no right whatsoever to dictate the movement of foreign drivers.

Of course they have. The French Govt have sole control over the traffic on their roads, it has nothing to do with the EU. They can ban or permit whatever they like.

I suspect it's something to do with Sunday being a day of leisure and ordinary citizens using the motorways in much bigger numbers that day.

Atlantic Dawn

Strazdas wrote: »

Of course they have. The French Govt have sole control over the traffic on their roads, it has nothing to do with the EU. They can ban or permit whatever they like.

I suspect it's something to do with Sunday being a day of leisure and ordinary citizens using the motorways in much bigger numbers that day.

Why can't we then decide tomorrow to ban trawlers fishing on a Sunday in our waters? It's all selective based on France and Germany telling us what to do.

BonnieSituation

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why can't we then decide tomorrow to ban trawlers fishing on a Sunday in our waters? It's all selective based on France and Germany telling us what to do.

What are you talking about?

I want to get handle on this, you want Ireland and our hauliers to show off our sovereignty by violating the sovereignty of France?

Atlantic Dawn

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What are you talking about?

I want to get handle on this, you want Ireland and our hauliers to show off our sovereignty by violating the sovereignty of France?

They are blocking the free movement of goods in the EU, simple as. If they wish to have legislation to allow their own drivers a day off that's their own business, they have no right to limit use of their highways to anyone else.

BonnieSituation

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They are blocking the free movement of goods in the EU, simple as. If they wish to have legislation to allow their own drivers a day off that's their own business, they have no right to limit use of their highways to anyone else.

They LITERALLY do.

Atlantic Dawn

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They LITERALLY do.

Why can't we do this or any other EU country do it?

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They are blocking the free movement of goods in the EU, simple as. If they wish to have legislation to allow their own drivers a day off that's their own business, they have no right to limit use of their highways to anyone else.

Are you complaining that France has too much sovereignty?

Atlantic Dawn

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you complaining that France has too much sovereignty?

Yes, from deciding what EU vehicles can drive through its roads.

BonnieSituation

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why can't we do this or any other EU country do it?

I don't think there's much we can do with this tbh.

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you complaining that France has too much sovereignty?

It's best to quietly shirk away methinks.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes, from deciding what EU vehicles can drive through its roads.

Ok.

Atlantic Dawn

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I don't think there's much we can do with this tbh.

Why not? What's stopping them expanding it to decide what planes fly over France on a Sunday?

Atlantic Dawn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok.

EU standards should prevent them.

BonnieSituation

I genuinely don't think you know what you think you know AD, and that's being polite.

I dread to think what CelticRambler, Peregrinus and resflj are gonna think when they see these posts tbh.

Tell me how

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

EU standards should prevent them.

'Should' is a key word when it comes to EU standards.

There is this process where things are discussed, and agreed up front and participating countries and organisations get to decide which things they are happy to accept or demand in exchange for the opportunity or benefit of agreeing to do others. Neither side ever really gets to have everything exactly as they want it.

Most of the countries who have participated in such negotiations manage to grasp this but there are some who struggle with it.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why not? What's stopping them expanding it to decide what planes fly over France on a Sunday?

Nothing really. They're a nuclear power and if they cared enough about planes, they could nuke them out of the sky.

But I would imagine that trying to decide what can and cannot fly arbitrarily would mean breaking various rules of the sky agreements they've signed up to, which could be damaging both inside the EU and with partners like the US.

Detritus70

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They are blocking the free movement of goods in the EU, simple as. If they wish to have legislation to allow their own drivers a day off that's their own business, they have no right to limit use of their highways to anyone else.

Germany does as well, no trucks allowed on a Sunday. In Austria it is not allowed to leave the motorway and travel through the villages to avoid traffic jams.
We have every right to do so. And so does Ireland, that's what the EU is about. Sovereignty.

fash

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why can't we do this or any other EU country do it?

We can if we want - and others go it as well (Germany, Austria mentioned above):
link.
Should we start a campaign to "make Sunday Sunday again"?

CelticRambler

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I dread to think what CelticRambler, Peregrinus and resflj are gonna think when they see these posts tbh.

Well, for my part, it's way too early to be thinking!

But if it helps set AtlanticDawn's mind to rest, there is an exemption made for foreign drivers, as pointed out by the relevant Minister several years ago:

Pendant la période d'interdiction précisée ci-dessus, le transport de certaines marchandises, notamment les denrées périssables, bénéficie de dérogations permanentes quelles que soient la nationalité du véhicule et sa destination. Il en est de même pour les transports internationaux, à vide ou en charge, qui regagnent leur pays d'immatriculation, leur établissement ou leur centre d'exploitation. Cette disposition facilite notamment le retour des conducteurs dans leur famille.

International vehicles, full or empty, returning to their country of registration, their business premises or their logistical platform. This measure facilitates drivers returning to their families.


The good news for British drivers is that this rule applies to all international truckers, so as long as they're making a run for one of the Channel ports, they can cruise past their French colleagues parked up for the weekend.

Enzokk

J Mysterio wrote: »

The other side (deceny, reasonableness, justice) should be worked up! It's imperative that they are, and that they wake up quick and get to it. Such a political appointment is beyond brazen.

It's not the case that once a new government comes in that everything can just be fixed. Lasting damage is being done here to the very fabric of the UK.

Starmer hasn't impressed at all since becoming leader, largely avoiding the hard issues and 'letting the Tories own it' while he stands back and waits. The problem though is that the Tories are owning it and need to be stopped now!

It's the speed with which the institutions of the UK are being corrupted that is so amazing and horrifying to witness. Nothing is sacred, no institution too precious, no lie too big or obvious.

https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1309909393195008001

Just the other day we had the UK AG supporting breaking international law for the boss. The top civil servant in justice resigned. How 'Braverman' has managed to not resign or be pushed is beyond me. Government have simply 'taken a 'bullish approach' to all standards and matters of morality and integrity, and everything is being corrupted.

The English civil service has been gutted and made impotent. As those with character step down they leave a vacuum behind them. Cummings is hiring "weirdos" to help. The fundamentals of the UK are being damaged.

I am not saying it is not worrying, but like you posted I am actually a lot more worried about the loss of talent in the civil service due to the incompetence of the people in charge. Yes Paul Dacre being in charge of Ofcom is a story that needs to be reported on, but at the same time the government that killed an extra 20K people due to their incompetence is still in charge and they are still making a mess of the very thing that those people died with and there is another wave hitting them.

At the same time, this is what people voted for. My twitter bubble is not the UK and those people I follow being upset is not the people actually agreeing with the direction that Johnson has taken the country. Many of them will be happy with Paul Dacre and any other appointments.

As for Starmer, well there really isn't much he can do. He can rant and rave like Jeremy Corbyn did about how bad it is for the ordinary man, but those same people ran away from those words. Whether it was the words or the man doesn't really matter, what does is that they rejected it. So he has to build from the bottom. He is still fighting parts of his own party while trying to effect change with a government that has a 80 seat majority. But a lot of this isn't new for Labour as they have been dealing with these challenges under most leaders.

Enzokk

Just on the Dacre for Ofcom story, if this is true then it is the deadest cat they are trying to throw at people.

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1310124521823838208?s=20

So if it is that he has very little power in the position and it is mainly tech and telecom work and not much with newspapers or online, well what is the fuss?

Enzokk

Seems like the big u-turn is around the corner,

https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1310115122283778049?s=20

According to the FT there isn't an appetite among some in cabinet for no-deal and the chaos it would bring. It will be interesting to see what happens as they only have 2 and a bit weeks to go until those deadlines Johnson set. This is the problem if you paint yourself into a corner, as we saw with May and her ridiculous red lines.

Igotadose

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems like the big u-turn is around the corner,

https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1310115122283778049?s=20

According to the FT there isn't an appetite among some in cabinet for no-deal and the chaos it would bring. It will be interesting to see what happens as they only have 2 and a bit weeks to go until those deadlines Johnson set. This is the problem if you paint yourself into a corner, as we saw with May and her ridiculous red lines.

Paywalled. But, isn't there an end-of-September deadline about the IMB having the law-violating clauses removed? Seems like the IMB's going along unchanged so far. The EU can start proceedings now even based on the deadline being missed afaik.