Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Seth Brundle

This is the thirteenth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread.

I appreciate that the end of the Brexit Transition Period is or may be in sight (insofar as one can be certain) but please bear the following in mind before posting:

• Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
• Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
• Please do not be uncivil to other posters
• Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary
• Discussion of Sinn Féin's longstanding policy of abstention from Westminster is not suitable for this thread. Posts on this subject may be deleted

Previous thread is here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058025860

BonnieSituation

Triskaidekaphobia is real!

Given how things have gone since January, until the summer I thought we'd get the end of the transition period out of the last thread.

---

What sort of timetable are the talks at now with all of the messing about from the UK side?

dolanbaker

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Triskaidekaphobia is real!

Given how things have gone since January, until the summer I thought we'd get the end of the transition period out of the last thread.

---

What sort of timetable are the talks at now with all of the messing about from the UK side?

We'll be upto M before this saga is over!

Nody

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Triskaidekaphobia is real!

Given how things have gone since January, until the summer I thought we'd get the end of the transition period out of the last thread.

---

What sort of timetable are the talks at now with all of the messing about from the UK side?

Bluster until October, panic in November and extension of current BRINO in December I'd guess.

ambro25

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What sort of timetable are the talks at now with all of the messing about from the UK side?

Tight, progressing confidently towards sphincter-tight, with little significant developments expected before it gets to needle eye-tight...

...and with an aftermath commensurate with the whirring fan awaiting nearby.

Pablo Escobar

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Triskaidekaphobia is real!

Given how things have gone since January, until the summer I thought we'd get the end of the transition period out of the last thread.

---

What sort of timetable are the talks at now with all of the messing about from the UK side?

The EU negotiates in a very consistent manner. It's a 3 week cycle. 1-Preparation, 2-negotiations, 3-briefings. Rinse and repeat. If things don't get done during negotiations, then there's another 3 week wait. The UK have been trying to make them budge on this for a while, but they literally have no leverage.

The UK are either going to agree with pretty much everything (with regard to level playing field etc.) or nothing at all. Much of the EU are beyond caring at this stage. It just needs to be seen through.

And even if there is a FTA agreement at this point, it's still going to be pretty bare. It'll be a long way from the way it was.

dolanbaker

Not directly Brexit related, but a sign of things to come WRT international trade.
Another global brand retreating back to their home market.
Negotiating trade deals become harder when your potential partner start clearing the shelves.

https://www.am-online.com/news/manufacturer/2020/07/27/mitsubishi-motors-in-the-uk-shares-unexpected-market-withdrawal-plan-with-dealers
Mitsubishi Motors in the UK has written to its UK franchised retail partners to inform them of the Japanese car manufacturer's plan to exit the UK and European new car markets.
Long-time UK importer, the Cirencester-based Colt Car Company said that it would attempt to accelerate its plan to bring other emerging brands into the UK to replace the space left vacant by Mitsubishi after it announced this morning (July 27) that it would freeze the introduction of new models into Europe with immediate effect.

trellheim

Much of the EU are beyond caring at this stage. It just needs to be seen through.

Yes, you could see that the prime focus was not on Brexit at the recent talks.

listermint

dolanbaker wrote: »

Not directly Brexit related, but a sign of things to come WRT international trade.
Another global brand retreating back to their home market.
Negotiating trade deals become harder when your potential partner start clearing the shelves.

Mitsubishi cars have extremely poor sales in Europe including the UK. Frankly I'm more surprised they are still selling cars at all. They are on the back foot and will be even more so in the EV world if they don't start lighting some fires.

johnnyskeleton

Mod mote:

Polish discussion moved across the Elbe:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058095464

BonnieSituation

listermint wrote: »

Mitsubishi cars have extremely poor sales in Europe including the UK. Frankly I'm more surprised they are still selling cars at all. They are on the back foot and will be even more so in the EV world if they don't start lighting some fires.

The Outlander PHEV was doing well I had thought. Not Qashqai well, but well enough to give them a boost.

eire4

trellheim wrote: »

Yes, you could see that the prime focus was not on Brexit at the recent talks.

and it makes sense. The pandemic is clearly the major issue facing the EU at the moment and will get the attention that entails and rightly so.

CelticRambler

Well, whaddyaknow - Brexit making life difficult for the Channel Tunnel (despite the existence of an international treaty signed by the UK to make things work). From the Guardian:

The European commission has this week asked the European parliament and the European council to officially mandate France to urgently negotiate a new bilateral deal with the UK giving the ECJ the powers to resolve future disputes between the two countries as “union law would not longer be applicable to the part of the channel fixed link under the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom” after Brexit.

Unless there is an overarching deal with one body responsible for legal disputes regarding the entire 30-mile (50km) tunnel there will be chaos, insiders say.

“It would mean train drivers would have to have two sets of qualifications to drive on the British and French side of the tunnel. It would affect how you operate the tunnel with potential for divergence in the future on everything from signalling, voltage, the radio systems, the signalling system, ventilation, hydraulics. It would be like driving on the left- and right-hand side of the road at the same time,” said a source.

The EU’s plan to keep the ECJ as an arbiter in disputes will be anathema to Downing Street. ...

Catherine Barnard, professor of EU law at Cambridge, thinks “it is going to be very difficult to exclude the ECJ unless we have such a thin trade deal that it’s not worth the paper it’s written on with no principles of EU law engaged at all”.

I see, at the end of the article, a "senior UK official involved in the talks" has suggested a Swiss-style pick-and-mix solution - something the EU has said they will never, ever, ever agree to again, given all the problems they've had with Switzerland over the years!

reslfj

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, whaddyaknow - Brexit making life difficult for the Channel Tunnel (despite the existence of an international treaty signed by the UK to make things work).

How is it today?

Isn't the trains from London to Paris or Brussels operated by the same personnel all the way i.e in both the UK, France (and Belgium) ?

Is it one pool of Eurostar trains with mixed nationalities ? or are there UK trains and French trains?

CelticRambler wrote: »

"senior UK official involved in the talks" has suggested a Swiss-style pick-and-mix solution - something the EU has said they will never, ever, ever agree to again, given all the problems they've had with Switzerland over the years!

Nice try - Mr/Ms "senior UK official" - but the answer will forever be a NO in huge capital letters.

The UK is a small country with a very corona-sick economy and a national debt already above 100% of its (corona-free) GDP.
And yet the UK continues to play games despite its overwhelming weakness.

The UK should realise that the ditch of Boris is deep, wet, cold, dirty and will last much longer than the corona is expected to.

Most UK citizens will rather not die in this ditch - I guess - and this requires some fast "Yes Sir" UK-answers to "the 5 floor" in Brussels.

Lars

Seth Brundle

Looks like any trade deal with China may be one-sided...

China's ambassador to London has accused the UK of "seriously poisoning" relations between the countries - and warned it would "pay the price" if it shunned Beijing.

Referring to disputes over Hong Kong, tech giant Huawei and alleged human rights abuses in Xinjiang, Liu Xiaoming said the UK was at a "critical historical juncture" in how it wanted to treat China.

https://news.sky.com/story/china-says-uk-has-poisoned-relations-and-will-pay-the-price-if-it-shuns-beijing-12039070

CelticRambler

reslfj wrote: »

How is it today?

Isn't the trains from London to Paris or Brussels operated by the same personnel all the way i.e in both the UK, France (and Belgium) ?

Is it one pool of Eurostar trains with mixed nationalities ? or are there UK trains and French trains?

Not entirely sure whether or not your question is rhetorical, but for the sake of others who don't know, the Canterbury Treaty provided for a tightly defined area of joint and reciprocal sovereignty, so the current operation is about as truly European as you'll find anywhere in the continent. Under EU rules, anyone can apply to run trains on the network, but under Eurotunnel rules, only trains complying with their stringent safety standards can be used, and only the French, Belgian and British rail companies ever bought compliant rolling stock.

At the moment, when you board a train, you don't know whether it's owned by a British, French or Belgian operator, and you probably won't notice that the in-tunnel mobile networks are operated by French companies in one tunnel and British companies in another, just as you don't really realise when you go through check-in at Coquelles, that you've administratively entered the UK, even if you can still smell the baguettes being baked in the terminal building ...

And therein lies all the trouble ahead. If you're boarding a train in Folkestone, will you be allowed bring your ham sandwich on board? Can we trust the British not to downgrade safety standards so that the Chinese can run trains to Paris? Will you find that you pay roaming charges if you use your phone in the North Tunnel, but not in the South? And if you've got a car full of mixed EU and GB nationalities, where do those without a visa wait for a lift home while everyone else continues their journey ...?

Geuze

reslfj wrote: »

How is it today?

Isn't the trains from London to Paris or Brussels operated by the same personnel all the way i.e in both the UK, France (and Belgium) ?

Is it one pool of Eurostar trains with mixed nationalities ? or are there UK trains and French trains?

Eurostar run trains from London to Paris, to Bruss, sometimes to Marseilles.

Same crew all the way, it's 1h50 to Bruss, 2h15 to Paris.


Note that a different firm run the shuttle trains, that go from portal to portal, carrying cars and trucks.

Enzokk

New talks have been scheduled up to October.

Brexit talks scheduled just in time for key EU October summit

Britain and the EU have planned more trade negotiations all the way until Oct. 2, less than a fortnight before a summit where the bloc hopes to endorse any agreement with London, according to a schedule published by British negotiators on Friday.

More than four years after Britons voted to leave the EU, and after tortuous divorce talks, the two sides are negotiating on all aspects of their future ties, from trade to security to transport, from 2021 onwards.

The EU has said negotiators must seal any deal by October to allow for ratification by the bloc’s 27 nations. The EU’s Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, has since, however, signalled room for some slippage.

In other news, remember the Russia Report about Russian nationals with money using their influence with politicians? You will never guess who has been given a place in the House of Lords.

Johnson peerage for Lebedev crowns mutually beneficial friendship

Boris Johnson has never made any secret of his enduring friendship with Evgeny Lebedev, the Russian-born newspaper owner with a reputation for throwing decadent parties.

He has just been less keen to discuss what happens at these glamorous events, many of which have taken place at Lebedev’s restored castle in Perugia, Italy.

The pair first got to know each other in 2009 when Lebedev, then a man-about-town in his late 20s and best known in the tabloids for dating Joely Richardson and Geri Haliwell, bought the London Evening Standard with the help of his father, Alexander, a former KGB agent.

Lebedev, advised by the future Daily Mail editor Geordie Greig, decided to turn London’s biggest newspaper into a freesheet, giving him substantial influence over the capital’s politics. As a result Johnson, as mayor, was a regular social guest of Lebedev, aware of the influence of the hundreds of thousands of Evening Standards strewn over the commuter network.

Nothing to worry about here guys, just the son of a KGB agent now being in the House of Lords on the back of his friendship with the Prime Minister.

Sam Russell

Do they even know how to spell corruption?

Plenty in Private Eye going back at least 8 or 9 years about Lebedev. It's funny seeing the names that have come up since Brexit. So much is in the public realm but not widely reported until a few years after they've gotten the result they want.

correct horse battery staple

Sam Russell wrote: »

Do they even know how to spell corruption?

Something something unelected elites running the place

Sam Russell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Something something unelected elites running the place

I think that is Brussels you are thinking of, with their unelected bureaucrats, with their gold plated pensions and expenses.

This lot have solid gold salaries, solid gold pensions and solid gold expenses, plus a bit of useful information on the inside as well.

How do they get away with it?

Gerry T

Sam Russell wrote:

I think that is Brussels you are thinking of, with their unelected bureaucrats, with their gold plated pensions and expenses.

Sam Russell wrote:

This lot have solid gold salaries, solid gold pensions and solid gold expenses, plus a bit of useful information on the inside as well.

Sam Russell wrote:

I think that is Brussels you are thinking of, with their unelected bureaucrats, with their gold plated pensions and expenses.

Sam Russell wrote:

This lot have solid gold salaries, solid gold pensions and solid gold expenses, plus a bit of useful information on the inside as well.

Sam Russell wrote:

How do they get away with it?

Do you know the main houses of the EU and how they get their jobs. In basic summary their all from elected people or nominated by those elected.
Now how does the house of Lords work ? And whats this recent news with boris and a Russian mate.

Roanmore

Gerry T wrote: »

Do you know the main houses of the EU and how they get their jobs. In basic summary their all from elected people or nominated by those elected.
Now how does the house of Lords work ? And whats this recent news with boris and a Russian mate.

Think he was being sarcastic

Sam Russell

Gerry T wrote: »

Do you know the main houses of the EU and how they get their jobs. In basic summary their all from elected people or nominated by those elected.
Now how does the house of Lords work ? And whats this recent news with boris and a Russian mate.

I think you should look back at my earlier posts. Or even re-read the post you are quoting. Can you not see the tone of it?

I in no way am suggesting that the UK House of Lords is other than a bastion of undeserved privileged wasters full of their own self-importance, and that the current Tory party are not heavily invested in corruption of one form or another. That they are able to get away with it is only a result in a journalism absence in all the main media outlets that includes the once world leading BBC, now reduced to be the UK equivalent of Pravda.

On the other hand, the EU bureaucrats are fewer in number than the number of customs officers required to be employed by the UK Gov following the likely no-deal.

Talk about getting the wrong end of the stick.

Hermy

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think you should look back at my earlier posts.

In fairness to Gerry T I was going to do just that too when first I read your post as it had just the right amount of sarcasm to leave one wondering is it really a Brexiter or just someone pretending to be one. And I should know better - I've been here for three years.:o

Sam Russell

Hermy wrote: »

In fairness to Gerry T I was going to do just that too when first I read your post as it had just the right amount of sarcasm to leave one wondering is it really a Brexiter or just someone pretending to be one. And I should know better - I've been here for three years.:o

I think that the difference between 'gold plated' and 'solid gold' should alert the dimmest to who has the greatest amount wrested from the public purse.

As I implied, the British press and media cannot even spell 'corruption', and the Tories know it.

Gerry T

Roanmore wrote:

Think he was being sarcastic

Agh !

Capt'n Midnight

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that the difference between 'gold plated' and 'solid gold' should alert the dimmest to who has the greatest amount wrested from the public purse.

As I implied, the British press and media cannot even spell 'corruption', and the Tories know it.

They wasted £11.8 million on a Covid app that was cancelled long after they were told it was a dead duck due to things like privacy issues.

A working Covid app costs £11m less, and that includes releasing the source the code.


NHSX, the health service technology unit responsible for the government’s failed contact-tracing app, attempted to block rival apps to protect its own, hampering efforts to track the early spread of the coronavirus



But that's all chicken feed compared to
Coronavirus: Government has set aside £10bn for test and trace system for England

The sum, much of it going on contracts with private firms like Serco and G4S, amounts to more than 100 times Public Health England’s £90 million annual budget for infectious diseases and was described as “extraordinary” by a member of the Independent Sage group of scientists.

Lets be clear, the companies lining up for this money have a dismal track record. Their previous track records have included data leaks, failures/fraud and death.
Luckily they remembered to donate to the party.


Brexit will mean the UK can make up rules as it goes along instead of having to adhere to EU standards. The huge one will be when the EU starts closing off the tax loopholes of the UK protectorates.

Spanish Eyes

Covid has hidden Brexit now.

Capt'n Midnight

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Covid has hidden Brexit now.

That's the problem. They will railroad Brexit through regardless of the consequences to the great British public. Fait Accompli

LOTS of stuff unsorted with 5 months to go
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0729/1156269-eu-watchdog-tells-uk-banks-to-get-ready-for-full-brexit/

Banks using Britain as a gateway to the European Union must fully execute their plans for serving EU customers before a Brexit transition period ends in December, the EU's banking watchdog said today.
...

There is no mechanism for direct EU access in deposits or loans from January.