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I need feminism because... [READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING]

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  • joe40 wrote: »
    Personally I agree with you but I just want to clarify the terminology.
    Are you saying that in your opinion a woman that does not support or agree with abortion cannot call herself a feminist. Would that be a consensus opinion do you think.

    Sorry if this is not a debate thread.

    That's my opinion. I don't see how you can call yourself a feminist if you support the idea of keeping women pregnant against their will. I believe a true feminist would respect a woman's decision even if they personally don't like the idea of abortion.




  • eviltwin wrote: »
    That's my opinion. I don't see how you can call yourself a feminist if you support the idea of keeping women pregnant against their will. I believe a true feminist would respect a woman's decision even if they personally don't like the idea of abortion.

    Isn't this something thats pretty controversial in Feminists circles though it obviously trends to pro-choice?
    I mean by that definition you can't be a feminist if you support any time limits for the termination of pregnancy right?

    Having read a good amount of feminist sources I can hand on my heart say I don't know what it actually is apart from in the most vague terms of equality, if I quoted some prominent feminist figures like Greer as why I needed feminism I would likely be banned from this thread (mainly because I would be trolling, but if I genuinely held a subsection of feminist beliefs it would be an honest and feminist viewpoint to say I need feminism because “just because you lop off your penis… it doesn’t make you a woman”- direct quote not my opinion!!!




  • I would argue that the concepts of feminism and pro-life/anti-abortion are mutually exclusive. The two clash fundamentally and so are extremely difficult if not impossible to reconcile.
    Isn't this something thats pretty controversial in Feminists circles though it obviously trends to pro-choice?
    I mean by that definition you can't be a feminist if you support any time limits for the termination of pregnancy right?

    Having read a good amount of feminist sources I can hand on my heart say I don't know what it actually is apart from in the most vague terms of equality, if I quoted some prominent feminist figures like Greer as why I needed feminism I would likely be banned from this thread (mainly because I would be trolling, but if I genuinely held a subsection of feminist beliefs it would be an honest and feminist viewpoint to say I need feminism because “just because you lop off your penis… it doesn’t make you a woman”- direct quote not my opinion!!!

    This is something that really bugs me about pre-conceptions of feminism, or the more hardcore sides of it.

    To me feminism is freedom of choice for women. That means freedom of choice to be a stay at home mum, to choose not to have children and focus on a career, to choose to try to do both, freedom of choice to be a working mum with a stay at home partner, freedom of choice to believe it's ok to have an abortion prior to a certain length of gestation, freedom of choice to believe that it's wrong to have an abortion.

    Feminism is about enabling women, and as long as we choose to label women and their behaviour as acceptable or unacceptable according to the norms we deem acceptable, and as long as we do so more than we do to men, there is an issue.

    I had a conversation on this topic tonight with my mother, in that she wondered why so few people do the job I do. I then described a typical 3 months in my job to her with lots of travel, absence from home, a need to constantly study and keep up with qualifications, and she shuddered.

    Yet I love it, and feminism in the past has led to me being able to do it, rather than marrying and having children with no access to contraceptives e.g.
    Many wouldn't and that's their choice.

    I sometimes wonder if the fundamental tenet of feminism, which is about freedom of choice for all without predujice, has been forgotten by those who choose to entrench themselves on either side of the debate, leaving those of us in the middle with no voice to speak for us, left in a vacuum of wondering if it's worth embracing what it has achieved in the past and appreciating it?




  • Stheno wrote: »
    This is something that really bugs me about pre-conceptions of feminism, or the more hardcore sides of it.

    To me feminism is freedom of choice for women. That means freedom of choice to be a stay at home mum, to choose not to have children and focus on a career, to choose to try to do both, freedom of choice to be a working mum with a stay at home partner, freedom of choice to believe it's ok to have an abortion prior to a certain length of gestation, freedom of choice to believe that it's wrong to have an abortion.

    Feminism is about enabling women, and as long as we choose to label women and their behaviour as acceptable or unacceptable according to the norms we deem acceptable, and as long as we do so more than we do to men, there is an issue.

    I had a conversation on this topic tonight with my mother, in that she wondered why so few people do the job I do. I then described a typical 3 months in my job to her with lots of travel, absence from home, a need to constantly study and keep up with qualifications, and she shuddered.

    Yet I love it, and feminism in the past has led to me being able to do it, rather than marrying and having children with no access to contraceptives e.g.
    Many wouldn't and that's their choice.

    I sometimes wonder if the fundamental tenet of feminism, which is about freedom of choice for all without predujice, has been forgotten by those who choose to entrench themselves on either side of the debate, leaving those of us in the middle with no voice to speak for us, left in a vacuum of wondering if it's worth embracing what it has achieved in the past and appreciating it?

    Now that is feminism I agree with. Well said.




  • MOD

    Can I remind you of the thread title and the opening post please? Don't derail. If you've an issue you would like to discuss, start a new thread.


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  • Well said Stheno.
    Stheno wrote: »
    Yet I love it, and feminism in the past has led to me being able to do it, rather than marrying and having children with no access to contraceptives e.g. Many wouldn't and that's their choice.

    I'm not sure who's responsible for this but I believe a fundamental misunderstanding occurred when we were told "we can have it all" ... i.e. careers and children IF we wanted. The principle seemed to become "we must have it all" and that the norm is that women have jobs and kids and anyone who chooses to have one or the other is lacking something in their lives or somehow selfish. I think that's changing now but it still hangs around like a bad smell.
    Stheno wrote: »
    I sometimes wonder if the fundamental tenet of feminism, which is about freedom of choice for all without predujice, has been forgotten by those who choose to entrench themselves on either side of the debate, leaving those of us in the middle with no voice to speak for us, left in a vacuum of wondering if it's worth embracing what it has achieved in the past and appreciating it?

    It definitely has. I would guesstimate that 90% of "feminists" simply believe in "freedom of choice for all without prejudice" (I'll be throwing that perfectly put definition around from now on, thanks! :)) but the word "feminist" has become tainted by the loudest, most aggressive and controversial opinions which the media and far too many people are happy to grab onto and portray as "typical feminism".




  • Well said Stheno.
    I'm not sure who's responsible for this but I believe a fundamental misunderstanding occurred when we were told "we can have it all" ... i.e. careers and children IF we wanted. The principle seemed to become "we must have it all" and that the norm is that women have jobs and kids and anyone who chooses to have one or the other is lacking something in their lives or somehow selfish. I think that's changing now but it still hangs around like a bad smell.

    I was reading on another forum yesterday where a woman, along with her husband, chose to be a stay-at-home-mother even though the children are in school - I think the ages ranged from mid teens to 7/8.

    They could afford to comfortably live off one wage, husband was happy that mum was happy to do the taxiing to after-school study/ music lessons/ dash to school with the forgotten PE kit, dentist/ doctor stuff. All that jazz. He had the freedom to agree on the spot to a business trip, or stay late for a work crisis without worrying who was going to pick up the kids. She was happy because she got to spend time with her children. They were happy because now mum could go to every match or recital or whatever and see them play. She volunteers a couple of mornings a week at a charity. She's busy maintaining their lives.

    So it should be all good, right? Whole family happy. Except she was feeling a bit judged by people because she didn't work now her kids are at school. She felt that people thought she was lazy or a leech. She wondered if she should imply she worked part time from home, because she was a bit tired of the "so, what do you do?" questions being asked like "sooo, what do you do all day long" or the hints from people about job-hunting or upskilling to get back into the workforce.

    It should be freedom of choice for all without prejudice. That to me is what my feminism means.




  • Neyite wrote: »
    she was a bit tired of the "so, what do you do?" questions being asked like "sooo, what do you do all day long" or the hints from people about job-hunting or upskilling to get back into the workforce.

    The four most feared words a stay-at-home parent can hear:
    "So, what do you do?"
    "I'm a homemaker"
    "So, what do you do?"

    I need feminism because ... working in the home (which, let's face it, is much more an occupation of women than men) is a perfectly valid and highly valuable job which should be appreciated by society.




  • The four most feared words a stay-at-home parent can hear:
    "So, what do you do?"
    "I'm a homemaker"
    "So, what do you do?"

    I need feminism because ... working in the home (which, let's face it, is much more an occupation of women than men) is a perfectly valid and highly valuable job which should be appreciated by society.

    One of my friends is a stay at home dad as his wife can earn enough to maintain the family and both are happy with the set up.

    The amount of people who make catty remarks about him being made do the cooking etc, saying that his wife should give up her job and let him go back to work...

    That's why we need feminism. It needs to be okay for a woman to work.

    As an aside, the wife's take home pay is double what the guy could earn, they wouldn't be able to afford to only have him work.




  • Feminism helps one see the systemic prejudices and inequalities behind superficially individualised comments, abuse or experiences.


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  • Feminism helps one see the systemic prejudices and inequalities behind superficially individualised comments, abuse or experiences.

    That is, you can see that someone is sexist as well as a d***khead. It makes the offence less, because they are clearly unworthy.

    Not an attractive way to think, but I find it useful.




  • As a male feminist i must say that I think a lot off women's child care problems would be solved if they would consider dating men who are less career orientated than themselves, if we are going to change the dominant ideology of the patriarchy then this has to happen,we cannot ask men to change their dominant ideology when we are reluctant to change this social system ourselves,we are just going around in circles then,we must not go from the patriarchy to something even worse, which is a class based socially and economically divided society




  • I need feminism because, my friend who is working on her doctorate just got told her research was "cute" :mad::(




  • Eatyourveg wrote: »
    As a male feminist i must say that I think a lot off women's child care problems would be solved if they would consider dating men who are less career orientated than themselves, if we are going to change the dominant ideology of the patriarchy then this has to happen,we cannot ask men to change their dominant ideology when we are reluctant to change this social system ourselves,we are just going around in circles then,we must not go from the patriarchy to something even worse, which is a class based socially and economically divided society

    Child care is not a "woman's problem" as you seem to think. Its a couple's problem, equally the responsibility of the father as the mother.

    Attitudes like that are why I am a feminist.




  • eviltwin wrote: »
    Child care is not a "woman's problem" as you seem to think. Its a couple's problem, equally the responsibility of the father as the mother.

    Attitudes like that are why I am a feminist.

    I am not sure thats what the poster is saying, isn't he saying that to develop a more egalitarian society women need to stop the tendency* to select for men with higher income.




  • I am not sure thats what the poster is saying, isn't he saying that to develop a more egalitarian society women need to stop the tendency* to select for men with higher income.

    It's not really a response to his or her post, just an observation based on that comment. There is a tendency to see child care as the responsibility of the mother.




  • Eatyourveg wrote: »
    As a male feminist i must say that I think a lot off women's child care problems would be solved if they would consider dating men who are less career orientated than themselves, if we are going to change the dominant ideology of the patriarchy then this has to happen,we cannot ask men to change their dominant ideology when we are reluctant to change this social system ourselves,we are just going around in circles then,we must not go from the patriarchy to something even worse, which is a class based socially and economically divided society

    MOD


    As a male feminist you think women need to be attracted to one certain type of man. Right. Can I ask you to read the OP. There's a link to the charter in there too




  • Lucyfur wrote: »

    MOD


    As a male feminist you think women need to be attracted to one certain type of man. Right. Can I ask you to read the OP. There's a link to the charter in there too

    "Can I ask you to read the OP"


    The OP that says "no criticising others opinions. We are not of single mind, but you can disagree without being insulting"? Hm?


    "As a male feminist you think women need to be attracted to one certain type of man. Right."

    Your logical fallacy is... No True Scotsman. You're welcome.




  • orubiru wrote: »

    "Can I ask you to read the OP"


    The OP that says "no criticising others opinions. We are not of single mind, but you can disagree without being insulting"? Hm?


    "As a male feminist you think women need to be attracted to one certain type of man. Right."

    Your logical fallacy is... No True Scotsman. You're welcome.

    MOD:

    Do not question a mods actions on thread. Any issues, feel free to PM.

    Perhaps you could also take a read of the OP, charter and get back on topic.




  • LenaClaire wrote: »
    I need feminism because, my friend who is working on her doctorate just got told her research was "cute" :mad::(

    Is it about baby rabbits? Because that is the only justifiable reason to call research "cute".


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  • I really need feminism because, as recent events show, any attempt to talk about the issues women face simply for being women are constantly under bombardment from a certain subset of men who are so very keen to tell us what is the "right" way to be feminist, which ways they approve of etc. etc.

    Here's a note for you guys, maybe back off, shut up and actually listen for a change?




  • sullivlo wrote: »
    Is it about baby rabbits? Because that is the only justifiable reason to call research "cute".

    Nope, it is about political science :)




  • B0jangles wrote: »
    I really need feminism because, as recent events show, any attempt to talk about the issues women face simply for being women are constantly under bombardment from a certain subset of men who are so very keen to tell us what is the "right" way to be feminist, which ways they approve of etc. etc.

    Here's a note for you guys, maybe back off, shut up and actually listen for a change?

    Ah sure aren't they only trying to help us understand. Our little woman brains aren't capable of understanding the things we go through on a daily basis.




  • B0jangles wrote: »
    I really need feminism because, as recent events show, any attempt to talk about the issues women face simply for being women are constantly under bombardment from a certain subset of men who are so very keen to tell us what is the "right" way to be feminist, which ways they approve of etc. etc.

    Here's a note for you guys, maybe back off, shut up and actually listen for a change?

    +1

    A certain kind of man constantly trying to hijack every conversation about women's issues is proof in and of itself that feminism is still needed. While women can't even discuss their own experiences in a space designed for just that because certain men still want to dominate the conversation, undermine women's experiences and talk down to them, then feminism is still needed.




  • I need feminism because today I was condescendingly smiled at in a hardware store and reminded to get the man of the house to help me fix the problem.

    He's lucky I didn't shove the nozzle off of the expandable foam somewhere the sun don't shine and turn it on.




  • I need feminism because I told a guy who was coming on to me aggressively to back off, and his reaction was to ask me if I had a boyfriend.

    Some men still think that you're fair game as long as you're not some other mans property.

    Where's my tea?





  • I need feminism because a few years ago an ex broke into my house and threatened to kill me with a crow bar and I was told that he must really love me and that he was just upset and panicked.




  • Links234 wrote: »

    was that this guy? Logicked seems to have the measure of the guy "idiot mra becomes idiot feminist" , his critique made me chuckle anyway



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  • That's a very interesting read Links, thanks for that.

    I need feminism because I'm usually the only female in gatherings of senior management in my field.


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