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I need feminism because... [READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING]

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Walker Scruffy Trial


    My impression of it over the years has been that younger men are more likely to do it, and that men in groups are more likely to do it. So I'd guess there's some element of showing off or trying to impress peers there. Why on earth it's something that perceived as impressive is a different question, really. Just last week I was walking near the Sparch in Galway, lovely sunny day, there were loads of people around. There was this beautiful woman who'd obviously put loads of effort into her outfit, and a car full of young lads drove past. One of them roared out the window at her 'You slut, I can see up your skirt!' and you could hear them all bursting themselves laughing as they drove away. Poor woman, you could just see her deflate. I dunno, it's hard for me to see it objectively, but I do think there has to be some element of sexual insecurity there, and then overcompensating for it.

    And, I have never been catcalled or groped as frequently as I was between the ages of about 13 and 16. It's like once you start a titting and a hairing (to borrow a phrase from Orange Is The New Black) you nearly have to be punished for it. It's all over society, women being held responsible for any sexual feelings they inspire in men just by existing.


  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    My impression of it over the years has been that younger men are more likely to do it, and that men in groups are more likely to do it. So I'd guess there's some element of showing off or trying to impress peers there. Why on earth it's something that perceived as impressive is a different question, really. Just last week I was walking near the Sparch in Galway, lovely sunny day, there were loads of people around. There was this beautiful woman who'd obviously put loads of effort into her outfit, and a car full of young lads drove past. One of them roared out the window at her 'You slut, I can see up your skirt!' and you could hear them all bursting themselves laughing as they drove away. Poor woman, you could just see her deflate. I dunno, it's hard for me to see it objectively, but I do think there has to be some element of sexual insecurity there, and then overcompensating for it.

    And, I have never been catcalled or groped as frequently as I was between the ages of about 13 and 16. It's like once you start a titting and a hairing (to borrow a phrase from Orange Is The New Black) you nearly have to be punished for it. It's all over society, women being held responsible for any sexual feelings they inspire in men just by existing.

    As you often do, Electro, you've just articulated many of the random, disconnected thoughts in my head and made sense with them.

    I couldn't agree more. :)

    ETA: I might say that I've been groped since I was about 14, and while it's diminished now as I'm in my late 20's, I don't think it's diminished as much as it has with many of my friends. The ugly thought in the back of my mind is that it's because I'm small and an easy target, as if the thought of being groped alone isn't ugly enough.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Walker Scruffy Trial


    To be fair, there's probably plenty of instances where it's just learned behaviour as well, there is a huge range of how common it is across different cultures/countries.

    My little brother would have been made very aware of this sort of stuff growing up from my sister and I, he said when he went to college there'd be normal seeming lads he was friends with who'd start that kind of behaviour and if/when he gave out to them they, often were sort of like 'Oh yeah, guess I never really thought about it before, it is kind of shítty'


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,160 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    I never really understood catcalling. What do these chaps think will happen exactly?

    Nor I.

    However on a related theme and in light of the subsequent posts, this might be of interest - the Anita Hill story from the States. The other weekend I watched HBO's Confirmation (trailer here). It only came to my attention because of the cast and real life back story is quite troubling. Basically, George Bush Senior wanted Clarence Thomas to be his nominee to SCOTUS in the early 90s. Law professor Anita Hill came forward with allegations of sexual harassment, which are the focus on the film. I wasn't very impressed with it on the creative side (fact check here if you want), but it's worth watching all the same.

    The men don't out of it well, including Joe Biden (then Senator) mainly owing to the political antics and I think a rather staggering lack of empathy. There were a lot of dumb, blame heavy comments along the lines of: "You're saying Clarence Thomas, an accomplished justice wanted to watch pornographic films with you and yet you continued to maintain a professional relationship with him?" Little has changed on the attitudes front, you don't have to look far to see that.

    The NPR reporter (Nina Totenberg) who broke the story got a lot of **** for it too - it certainly opened my eyes and wtf-o-meter a bit more.

    NY Times piece for background and more here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,649 ✭✭✭Catari Jaguar


    This.
    “A woman was just killed for not accepting a man’s advances, but we’re going to pretend that our right to engage women unsolicited outweighs their right to feel safe? No.”

    From Buzzfeed catcalls article.

    Exact same thing happening on other threads. Saying rape culture doesn't exist. Ok, well it does. But fine, the main points of objection were like why should we:

    Stop rape jokes
    Stop PUA
    Stop engaging in offensive language & terms like "bitch"/ "p*ssy"
    Stop looking at/ hitting on women who aren't interested
    Stop having songs/ videos/ video games that objectify/ demean women
    Stop having sexy photoshoots, sex sells ads etc.
    Stop "creep shaming" cos it hurts feels (but prevents a women trusting her gut to keep safe, which is very dangerous)?

    A huge vitriolic backlash at the prospect of stopping the above behaviour (which achieves nothing and benefits no one). Women being uncomfortable and feeling unsafe is shut down, trivialised and dismissed so as not to ruins men's fun/ self thought belief that women exist for their benefit.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭fatknacker


    Cat calling is never about the "hot target"
    You never hear guys alone doing it.
    It's not as much a show of appreciation as it is a verbal back slappery to peers.
    It's not common or normal among men / boys.
    Most men/ boys / girls and women can appreciate an aesthetically pleasing woman's figure...boobs, legs, bum, curves, hair, clothes, style etc without being an asshole.
    People who shout about it and draw attention are assholes. No matter what they say. The moment they make someone else feel uncomfortable about their appearance, they are an being an asshole.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 11,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭miamee


    I need feminism because...during the week a female TD tweeted a photo of herself and some female colleagues reenacting the first Dail & FF Ard Chonhairle at 1916/90th FF anniversary celebration and yesterday someone replied to her tweet to say 'well done Lisa your a stunner'.

    She's a member of the Dáil ffs, not in a lovely girls competition.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    MOD

    Just a reminder that the topic of the thread is "I need feminism because..." - while brief on-topic discussions have emerged, there have been moments where we're veering off-topic. If you want to discuss cat-calling (which isn't really a solely female issue), feel free to start a thread elsewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭Gunslinger92


    ... Last weekend I was apprehensive about going out in my lovely new leather skirt, and lo and behold, got honked at about two minutes after stepping outside.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Mod

    Handelzimmer don't post in this thread again until you have read the charter and the OP.


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  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I need feminism because a Stanford University student was discovered on top of an unconscious woman behind a dumpster, and instead of the six years in prison the prosecution wanted after he was found guilty of three felony counts of sexual assault - he plead not guilty - the judge has decided that prison would have a 'severe impact on him' and gave him six months in County, and probation.

    He will serve only three months, with good behaviour.
    Turner was charged with assault with intent to commit rape of an intoxicated woman, sexually penetrating an intoxicated person with a foreign object and sexually penetrating an unconscious person with a foreign object, according to the Guardian. He will serve six months in county jail for the crime and will be required to register as a sex offender.


    MOD
    Discussion continues here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057607454


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    http://www.gosocial.co/dating-site-crazy/

    Fantastic response by the company!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    sullivlo wrote: »
    http://www.gosocial.co/dating-site-crazy/

    Fantastic response by the company!

    Isn't it?
    God he flipped out


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Oh I know. It's a shame though, it happens so frequently. Guys losing the plot on dating apps. I've lots of stories, but they're probably for a different thread :pac:


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,160 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Beyonce feminist? Jesus wept. Some of these men are so self-absorbed it's unreal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8 Eatyourveg


    There is a lot off single intellectually curious Talented males who hold degree in sociology and journalism and other interesting subjects ,these guys live in one bedroom apt and have low status jobs & Never get dates ,yet there is some douche-bag accounted IT types,pick up artist reading Gob****e with the intellectually curious off a donkey who goes on 4 dates a week


  • Registered Users Posts: 8 Eatyourveg


    I mean intellectual curiosity off a donkey who goes on 4 dates a week


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    MOD EatYourVeg, your posts don't have anything to do with the topic of the thread (I need feminism because...). If you want to start a new thread, perhaps The Gentelman's Club (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1136) would be more suited to your needs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Because Women's Aid can't publish their annual report without the usual what about the men narrative


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Because I was a bad person today and I feel guilty.

    Today I judged a woman for wearing shorts without shaving her legs. As soon as I realised myself judging, I felt awful. It was instinctive. Mainly because society expects women to conform to impossible beauty norms, and because if I don't shave my legs I feel paranoid that people will stare.

    Because I still feel like a woman has to look good for the men of this world.

    I genuinely felt horrible afterwards.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Electric Sex Pants


    sullivlo wrote: »
    Because I was a bad person today and I feel guilty.

    Today I judged a woman for wearing shorts without shaving her legs. As soon as I realised myself judging, I felt awful. It was instinctive. Mainly because society expects women to conform to impossible beauty norms, and because if I don't shave my legs I feel paranoid that people will stare.

    Because I still feel like a woman has to look good for the men of this world.

    I genuinely felt horrible afterwards.

    Why does it make you feel horrible? Are you not entitled to your opinion? Its not like you went over and berated her for it? You just thought it?


  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Why does it make you feel horrible? Are you not entitled to your opinion? Its not like you went over and berated her for it? You just thought it?

    Because women are judged enough on minor points already; it can be disheartening to find yourself unthinkingly joining in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Electric Sex Pants


    Candie wrote: »
    Because women are judged enough on minor points already; it can be disheartening to find yourself unthinkingly joining in.

    So there are now rules against what to think? thoughts are morally neutral. You can think what you want and should not be told that you cant. If she is confident enough to walk around with shorts and unshaven legs then its a fair assumption to say she is confident enough to handle any thoughts people might have.


  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    So there are now rules against what to think? thoughts are morally neutral. You can think what you want and should not be told that you cant. If she is confident enough to walk around with shorts and unshaven legs then its a fair assumption to say she is confident enough to handle any thoughts people might have.

    You're missing the point. Both of the thread, and the post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Electric Sex Pants


    Candie wrote: »
    You're missing the point. Both of the thread, and the post.

    I am simply disagreeing, im not insulting or being disrespectful and just because i am challenging your view does not mean that i am missing the point.
    If this is meant to be an echo chamber then please let me know and i will not post anymore but i thought the point of this was to encourage open discussion from people with different viewpoints.

    I have read the warnings at the start and i am not in violation of any.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    So there are now rules against what to think? thoughts are morally neutral. You can think what you want and should not be told that you cant. If she is confident enough to walk around with shorts and unshaven legs then its a fair assumption to say she is confident enough to handle any thoughts people might have.
    I think sullivlo's point was that the conditioning women are subjected from our childhood means that even though we think that it's ok for women to be however they want to be, we can't help but subconsciously judge. That's why she felt terrible - that contradiction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Walker Scruffy Trial


    So there are now rules against what to think? thoughts are morally neutral. You can think what you want and should not be told that you cant. If she is confident enough to walk around with shorts and unshaven legs then its a fair assumption to say she is confident enough to handle any thoughts people might have.

    You're criticising her thoughts. What's it to you if she reflected on her thinking and didn't like what she saw? You can think what you like, and you can think what you like about what you think. You're doing the exact thing you're giving out about


  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I am simply disagreeing, im not insulting or being disrespectful and just because i am challenging your view does not mean that i am missing the point.
    If this is meant to be an echo chamber then please let me know and i will not post anymore but i thought the point of this was to encourage open discussion from people with different viewpoints.

    I have read the warnings at the start and i am not in violation of any.

    No, none of that is what I'm saying.

    What I'm saying is that it has nothing to do with an opinion, or the woman in the shorts being able to handle a strangers thoughts, or rules against what to think, or self censoring.

    Just that sometimes we find ourselves thinking things that disappoint us, things we thought we were past. I'm sure you've caught yourself thinking less than kind things at times, things you know show up your own unconscious bias that you hoped you'd moved past.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Men have made me feel afraid many times.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Electric Sex Pants


    I think sullivlo's point was that the conditioning women are subjected from our childhood means that even though we think that it's ok for women to be however they want to be, we can't help but subconsciously judge. That's why she felt terrible - that contradiction.

    Isn't that just a human condition though? we are hard wired to judge those who are different from what our society seems as normal. There was a time when being different may have resulted in you getting eaten by something.

    So my point is that she said she feels genuinely horrible for having a perfectly natural response to something that is out of the norm in western society. I appreciate there is a contradiction but my point is still valid isnt it, the idea of feeling so bad because of a thought is a bit extreme?


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