I need feminism because... [READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING]

eviltwin

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Why would men term them Feminists when even without looking further than this thread that its is only acceptable that women can have views on Feminism.

You say that



The poster EatYourVeg made a point about changing gender roles would result in more equality, this is exactly what your apparently talking about.

The response is



And a mod warning.

So tell me (and I do feel its ok for me to post on this thread after this post since its massively generalizing about people who dislike modern feminism which is the majority of men).

If feminism equals equality and is good for men to why can't a male poster put forward what he thinks will improve social equality without being attacked for his gender (its ok to attack the ideas if you think they are flawed)

on a secondary note if its about equality and improving things for both sexes how come the gender divide in terms of college education isn't as big an issue as lack of women in STEM for any feminists (something like 70-30 in many 1st world countries)

I'm sure I will get a mod warning for this but can I point out that this thread is meant to be "why I need feminism" that doesn't mean its ok to label and disparage those who disagree with your chosen political cause.

If you want to critique feminism go ahead, I think debate is healthy and informative but can you really not see that this thread is not the place for it?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Feminism can be very relevant to problems which affect men. The 8:1 suicide rates, or the awful situation of male victims of sexual and domestic abuse for example. Issues which at least partly arise from the expectation for men to be strong and silent and women to be weak and talky, and the association of asking for help or being a victim with femininity and therefore the cultural construction of those things as inherently emasculating. That kills men, and it arises from the structures which feminism is designed to oppose.

'Women don't chat me up and it's not fair that they can skate through life on their looks and I can't' is at the very least a badly misguided take on how feminism relates to men's issues though, and is not appropriate for this thread

PressRun

Tbh, in academic circles anyway, the feminist conversation has had a lot more interesting and useful things to say about men's issues and masculinity in general than any men's rights movement I've ever come across. The men's rights movement is almost entirely reactionary and achieves virtually nothing except stoking the fire of misguided anger as a result.

RDM_83 again

eviltwin wrote: »

If you want to critique feminism go ahead, I think debate is healthy and informative but can you really not see that this thread is not the place for it?

And can you not see that its not ok to insult or ascribe false motivations to the huge number of people that have an issue with modern feminism.


One Eyed Jack your a man right and AFAIK you have said yourself before your not a feminist, why are you posting then?

Walker Scruffy Trial wrote: »

Feminism can be very relevant to problems which affect men. The 8:1 suicide rates, or the awful situation of male victims of sexual and domestic abuse for example. Issues which at least partly arise from the expectation for men to be strong and silent and women to be weak and talky, and the association of asking for help or being a victim with femininity and therefore the cultural construction of those things as inherently emasculating. That kills men, and it arises from the structures which feminism is designed to oppose.

'Women don't chat me up and it's not fair that they can skate through life on their looks and I can't' is at the very least a badly misguided take on how feminism relates to men's issues though, and is not appropriate for this thread

If feminism is about equality for all and men have an equal voice his points even if badly phrased should not be rejected because they focus on men.

Do you see the hypocrisy and why I replied to the post I did.
If you believe in legal equality and equality of opportunity and not to have gender prescribed careers or roles, I should be a feminist right?

If a man posts as a feminist and suggests a way of achieving greater equality (which relies on a change on womens behavior), his post isn't attacked for its content they are told to stop posting because they are a man and are referencing their own life experience.

Dammed if you do dammed if you don't and all from a space (the only space on boards AFAIK where a political opinion rather than personal has a protected space)

edit: and I have never read high profile feminists articles about the gender education gap that don't frame it in terms of problems with male behaviour

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

RDM_83 again wrote: »

If feminism is about equality for all and men have an equal voice his points even if badly phrased should not be rejected because they focus on men.

If not just the phrasing, or even the fact that they focus on men, it's the content. It's setting up things like women being valued purely on their appearance as something that apparently victimises men, when that is a core issue that feminism has addressed for decades because it in fact victimises and oppresses women, it's a fundamental ignorance of or misunderstanding of the very basics of feminism. The problem of 'not being able to wait around for someone to shower me with gifts and pay my bills'...that's a men's problem that feminism should be trying to solve? Seriously?

Women's behaviour is criticised constantly, demanded to change constantly. 'Here's a problem women have which involves men' 'Well women should change and it'd go away' 'Here's a problem men have which involves women' 'Well those women should change their behaviour'

Patience runs real short real quick with that after you see it enough times.

sullivlo

MOD

RDM_83 again - do not post in this thread again. Your lack of regard for the charter is laughable at this stage.

All others - don't respond on thread.

One eyed Jack

Edit, just saw your mod warning there sullvio, deleted my own post.

(takes me a bit of time to write replies )

sullivlo

MOD
OEJ: the other poster has been told not to post on this thread again. All posters have been told not to respond to him.

Ectoplasm

I need feminism because I am so, so sick and tired of female activism being branded as sexist. It's gotten ridiculous...a group of women take a photo to show how many of them are employed in a massively male dominated industry and rather than it being seen as an attempt to empower women who may have career aspirations in this MASSIVELY male dominated industry it is slammed for excluding male coworkers. Peak whataboutery.

I'm sick and tired of idiots sneering at what they think are buzzwords, such as privelege or patriarchy, without understanding the fundamental meanings behind them. (I will accept that this is done by people on both 'sides' of the argument).

I'm getting massively more narky in my old age (late 30s) and far less likely to put up with sexism dressed up in jokes or banter. FRO you're a dick.

I genuinely feel like things are going backwards somehow and it's depressing.

Lau2976

I need feminism because I got called a whore by a middle aged woman in a pharmacy today.

And because it annoyed me more that it came from a woman.

Catari Jaguar

Interesting article in Indo about celeb views on feminism yesterday, though reading it I thought a) how is this still a debate?? and b) Can I ban the apologetic sentence "I wouldn't call myself a feminist, I'm an equalist'" David Cameron, even used it recently. Why the reluctance for "The F word"? It's even used an accusatory insult. Equality is the very definition of feminism. Gloria Steinem herself states, "A feminist is anyone who recognizes the equality and full humanity of women and men.”

There's no radical anti-men ulterior motive from myself or any other women/men I know who are proud to believe in feminism.

Absolute entrenched siege mentality from so many threatened and insecure men, hugely prevalent here on boards. It's just sad really. As long as enough men feel somehow victimised like that, equality is a difficult task.




Some "man hating" myth busting here that says it better than I ever could.

Finished my rant.

ancapailldorcha

A friend of mine is a lefty/socialist/arty type (not sure why we're friends). Anyway, she fancied doing a bit of busking the other day where several men decided to interrupt her singing to hug her, ask her why she wasn't singing in her native tongue (French) and generally just harass her.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

A friend of mine is a lefty/socialist/arty type (not sure why we're friends). Anyway, she fancied doing a bit of busking the other day where several men decided to interrupt her singing to hug her, ask her why she wasn't singing in her native tongue (French) and generally just harass her.

Ugh, reminds me, I need feminism because I was cat called the other day and when I responded was told I was a 'rude cow'. Yeeeeah OK Mr Manners, sorry for ruining your unsolicited jolly jape about my tits, should have remembered it comes with the territory of Being Outside While Female.

I also need feminism because I at some level feel like I should describe what I was wearing to back up the fact that I didn't 'deserve' or 'ask for' a stranger to roar sexual comments at me.

I need feminism because yesterday a person who had an appointment with me walked into my office and asked to see Dr (my) Lastname, clearly assuming it couldn't be me.

ancapailldorcha

Walker Scruffy Trial wrote: »

Ugh, reminds me, I need feminism because I was cat called the other day and when I responded was told I was a 'rude cow'. Yeeeeah OK Mr Manners, sorry for ruining your unsolicited jolly jape about my tits, should have remembered it comes with the territory of Being Outside While Female.

I also need feminism because I at some level feel like I should describe what I was wearing to back up the fact that I didn't 'deserve' or 'ask for' a stranger to roar sexual comments at me.

I never really understood catcalling. What do these chaps think will happen exactly?

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never really understood catcalling. What do these chaps think will happen exactly?

I don't think it's about us, I think it's about them inserting themselves into a girls life, however momentarily, and making their presence felt welcome or not. And most of them have to know it's not.

Perhaps it's a dominance thing and they expect nothing other than grudging acknowledgment - but it's still acknowledgement.

ancapailldorcha

Candie wrote: »

I don't think it's about us, I think it's about them inserting themselves into a girls life, however momentarily, and making their presence felt welcome or not. And most of them have to know it's not.

Perhaps it's a dominance thing and they expect nothing other than grudging acknowledgment - but it's still acknowledgement.

I suppose that that would constitute as good an explanation as any. I still don't quite get it though.

Sapphire

I read somewhere recently that the reason women are uncomfortable about cat-calling like that is because we know that "you fcuking bitch" or a variant is on the tip of their tongue. And that basically nails it for me.

I think it was in a discussion in relation to the DudesGreetingDudes hash tag

https://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/dudes-greeting-dudes?utm_term=.ucw5gmVK5#.mk1VdeaxV

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I suppose that that would constitute as good an explanation as any. I still don't quite get it though.

I don't know if it's the right explanation, or even close to it. I just can't think of any other.

ancapailldorcha

Candie wrote: »

I don't know if it's the right explanation, or even close to it. I just can't think of any other.

Fair enough. As I said, I certainly have nothing more insightful to offer as a counterargument.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

My impression of it over the years has been that younger men are more likely to do it, and that men in groups are more likely to do it. So I'd guess there's some element of showing off or trying to impress peers there. Why on earth it's something that perceived as impressive is a different question, really. Just last week I was walking near the Sparch in Galway, lovely sunny day, there were loads of people around. There was this beautiful woman who'd obviously put loads of effort into her outfit, and a car full of young lads drove past. One of them roared out the window at her 'You slut, I can see up your skirt!' and you could hear them all bursting themselves laughing as they drove away. Poor woman, you could just see her deflate. I dunno, it's hard for me to see it objectively, but I do think there has to be some element of sexual insecurity there, and then overcompensating for it.

And, I have never been catcalled or groped as frequently as I was between the ages of about 13 and 16. It's like once you start a titting and a hairing (to borrow a phrase from Orange Is The New Black) you nearly have to be punished for it. It's all over society, women being held responsible for any sexual feelings they inspire in men just by existing.

Walker Scruffy Trial

Walker Scruffy Trial wrote: »

My impression of it over the years has been that younger men are more likely to do it, and that men in groups are more likely to do it. So I'd guess there's some element of showing off or trying to impress peers there. Why on earth it's something that perceived as impressive is a different question, really. Just last week I was walking near the Sparch in Galway, lovely sunny day, there were loads of people around. There was this beautiful woman who'd obviously put loads of effort into her outfit, and a car full of young lads drove past. One of them roared out the window at her 'You slut, I can see up your skirt!' and you could hear them all bursting themselves laughing as they drove away. Poor woman, you could just see her deflate. I dunno, it's hard for me to see it objectively, but I do think there has to be some element of sexual insecurity there, and then overcompensating for it.

And, I have never been catcalled or groped as frequently as I was between the ages of about 13 and 16. It's like once you start a titting and a hairing (to borrow a phrase from Orange Is The New Black) you nearly have to be punished for it. It's all over society, women being held responsible for any sexual feelings they inspire in men just by existing.

As you often do, Electro, you've just articulated many of the random, disconnected thoughts in my head and made sense with them.

I couldn't agree more.

ETA: I might say that I've been groped since I was about 14, and while it's diminished now as I'm in my late 20's, I don't think it's diminished as much as it has with many of my friends. The ugly thought in the back of my mind is that it's because I'm small and an easy target, as if the thought of being groped alone isn't ugly enough.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

To be fair, there's probably plenty of instances where it's just learned behaviour as well, there is a huge range of how common it is across different cultures/countries.

My little brother would have been made very aware of this sort of stuff growing up from my sister and I, he said when he went to college there'd be normal seeming lads he was friends with who'd start that kind of behaviour and if/when he gave out to them they, often were sort of like 'Oh yeah, guess I never really thought about it before, it is kind of shítty'

The Black Oil

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never really understood catcalling. What do these chaps think will happen exactly?

Nor I.

However on a related theme and in light of the subsequent posts, this might be of interest - the Anita Hill story from the States. The other weekend I watched HBO's Confirmation (trailer here). It only came to my attention because of the cast and real life back story is quite troubling. Basically, George Bush Senior wanted Clarence Thomas to be his nominee to SCOTUS in the early 90s. Law professor Anita Hill came forward with allegations of sexual harassment, which are the focus on the film. I wasn't very impressed with it on the creative side (fact check here if you want), but it's worth watching all the same.

The men don't out of it well, including Joe Biden (then Senator) mainly owing to the political antics and I think a rather staggering lack of empathy. There were a lot of dumb, blame heavy comments along the lines of: "You're saying Clarence Thomas, an accomplished justice wanted to watch pornographic films with you and yet you continued to maintain a professional relationship with him?" Little has changed on the attitudes front, you don't have to look far to see that.

The NPR reporter (Nina Totenberg) who broke the story got a lot of **** for it too - it certainly opened my eyes and wtf-o-meter a bit more.

NY Times piece for background and more here.

Catari Jaguar

This.

“A woman was just killed for not accepting a man’s advances, but we’re going to pretend that our right to engage women unsolicited outweighs their right to feel safe? No.”

From Buzzfeed catcalls article.

Exact same thing happening on other threads. Saying rape culture doesn't exist. Ok, well it does. But fine, the main points of objection were like why should we:

Stop rape jokes
Stop PUA
Stop engaging in offensive language & terms like "bitch"/ "p*ssy"
Stop looking at/ hitting on women who aren't interested
Stop having songs/ videos/ video games that objectify/ demean women
Stop having sexy photoshoots, sex sells ads etc.
Stop "creep shaming" cos it hurts feels (but prevents a women trusting her gut to keep safe, which is very dangerous)?

A huge vitriolic backlash at the prospect of stopping the above behaviour (which achieves nothing and benefits no one). Women being uncomfortable and feeling unsafe is shut down, trivialised and dismissed so as not to ruins men's fun/ self thought belief that women exist for their benefit.

fatknacker

Cat calling is never about the "hot target"
You never hear guys alone doing it.
It's not as much a show of appreciation as it is a verbal back slappery to peers.
It's not common or normal among men / boys.
Most men/ boys / girls and women can appreciate an aesthetically pleasing woman's figure...boobs, legs, bum, curves, hair, clothes, style etc without being an asshole.
People who shout about it and draw attention are assholes. No matter what they say. The moment they make someone else feel uncomfortable about their appearance, they are an being an asshole.

miamee

I need feminism because...during the week a female TD tweeted a photo of herself and some female colleagues reenacting the first Dail & FF Ard Chonhairle at 1916/90th FF anniversary celebration and yesterday someone replied to her tweet to say 'well done Lisa your a stunner'.

She's a member of the Dáil ffs, not in a lovely girls competition.

sullivlo

MOD

Just a reminder that the topic of the thread is "I need feminism because..." - while brief on-topic discussions have emerged, there have been moments where we're veering off-topic. If you want to discuss cat-calling (which isn't really a solely female issue), feel free to start a thread elsewhere.

Gunslinger92

... Last weekend I was apprehensive about going out in my lovely new leather skirt, and lo and behold, got honked at about two minutes after stepping outside.

sullivlo

Mod

Handelzimmer don't post in this thread again until you have read the charter and the OP.

I need feminism because a Stanford University student was discovered on top of an unconscious woman behind a dumpster, and instead of the six years in prison the prosecution wanted after he was found guilty of three felony counts of sexual assault - he plead not guilty - the judge has decided that prison would have a 'severe impact on him' and gave him six months in County, and probation.

He will serve only three months, with good behaviour.

Turner was charged with assault with intent to commit rape of an intoxicated woman, sexually penetrating an intoxicated person with a foreign object and sexually penetrating an unconscious person with a foreign object, according to the Guardian. He will serve six months in county jail for the crime and will be required to register as a sex offender.

MOD
Discussion continues here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057607454

sullivlo

http://www.gosocial.co/dating-site-crazy/

Fantastic response by the company!

sullivlo

sullivlo wrote: »

http://www.gosocial.co/dating-site-crazy/

Fantastic response by the company!

Isn't it?
God he flipped out

sullivlo

Oh I know. It's a shame though, it happens so frequently. Guys losing the plot on dating apps. I've lots of stories, but they're probably for a different thread :pac:

The Black Oil

Beyonce feminist? Jesus wept. Some of these men are so self-absorbed it's unreal.

Eatyourveg

There is a lot off single intellectually curious Talented males who hold degree in sociology and journalism and other interesting subjects ,these guys live in one bedroom apt and have low status jobs & Never get dates ,yet there is some douche-bag accounted IT types,pick up artist reading Gob****e with the intellectually curious off a donkey who goes on 4 dates a week

Eatyourveg

I mean intellectual curiosity off a donkey who goes on 4 dates a week

IvyTheTerrible

MOD EatYourVeg, your posts don't have anything to do with the topic of the thread (I need feminism because...). If you want to start a new thread, perhaps The Gentelman's Club (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1136) would be more suited to your needs.

eviltwin

Because Women's Aid can't publish their annual report without the usual what about the men narrative

sullivlo

Because I was a bad person today and I feel guilty.

Today I judged a woman for wearing shorts without shaving her legs. As soon as I realised myself judging, I felt awful. It was instinctive. Mainly because society expects women to conform to impossible beauty norms, and because if I don't shave my legs I feel paranoid that people will stare.

Because I still feel like a woman has to look good for the men of this world.

I genuinely felt horrible afterwards.

Electric Sex Pants

sullivlo wrote: »

Because I was a bad person today and I feel guilty.

Today I judged a woman for wearing shorts without shaving her legs. As soon as I realised myself judging, I felt awful. It was instinctive. Mainly because society expects women to conform to impossible beauty norms, and because if I don't shave my legs I feel paranoid that people will stare.

Because I still feel like a woman has to look good for the men of this world.

I genuinely felt horrible afterwards.

Why does it make you feel horrible? Are you not entitled to your opinion? Its not like you went over and berated her for it? You just thought it?

Electric Sex Pants

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

Why does it make you feel horrible? Are you not entitled to your opinion? Its not like you went over and berated her for it? You just thought it?

Because women are judged enough on minor points already; it can be disheartening to find yourself unthinkingly joining in.

Electric Sex Pants

Candie wrote: »

Because women are judged enough on minor points already; it can be disheartening to find yourself unthinkingly joining in.

So there are now rules against what to think? thoughts are morally neutral. You can think what you want and should not be told that you cant. If she is confident enough to walk around with shorts and unshaven legs then its a fair assumption to say she is confident enough to handle any thoughts people might have.

Electric Sex Pants

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

So there are now rules against what to think? thoughts are morally neutral. You can think what you want and should not be told that you cant. If she is confident enough to walk around with shorts and unshaven legs then its a fair assumption to say she is confident enough to handle any thoughts people might have.

You're missing the point. Both of the thread, and the post.

Electric Sex Pants

Candie wrote: »

You're missing the point. Both of the thread, and the post.

I am simply disagreeing, im not insulting or being disrespectful and just because i am challenging your view does not mean that i am missing the point.
If this is meant to be an echo chamber then please let me know and i will not post anymore but i thought the point of this was to encourage open discussion from people with different viewpoints.

I have read the warnings at the start and i am not in violation of any.

IvyTheTerrible

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

So there are now rules against what to think? thoughts are morally neutral. You can think what you want and should not be told that you cant. If she is confident enough to walk around with shorts and unshaven legs then its a fair assumption to say she is confident enough to handle any thoughts people might have.

I think sullivlo's point was that the conditioning women are subjected from our childhood means that even though we think that it's ok for women to be however they want to be, we can't help but subconsciously judge. That's why she felt terrible - that contradiction.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

So there are now rules against what to think? thoughts are morally neutral. You can think what you want and should not be told that you cant. If she is confident enough to walk around with shorts and unshaven legs then its a fair assumption to say she is confident enough to handle any thoughts people might have.

You're criticising her thoughts. What's it to you if she reflected on her thinking and didn't like what she saw? You can think what you like, and you can think what you like about what you think. You're doing the exact thing you're giving out about

Electric Sex Pants

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

I am simply disagreeing, im not insulting or being disrespectful and just because i am challenging your view does not mean that i am missing the point.
If this is meant to be an echo chamber then please let me know and i will not post anymore but i thought the point of this was to encourage open discussion from people with different viewpoints.

I have read the warnings at the start and i am not in violation of any.

No, none of that is what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that it has nothing to do with an opinion, or the woman in the shorts being able to handle a strangers thoughts, or rules against what to think, or self censoring.

Just that sometimes we find ourselves thinking things that disappoint us, things we thought we were past. I'm sure you've caught yourself thinking less than kind things at times, things you know show up your own unconscious bias that you hoped you'd moved past.

midlandsmissus

Men have made me feel afraid many times.

Electric Sex Pants

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

I think sullivlo's point was that the conditioning women are subjected from our childhood means that even though we think that it's ok for women to be however they want to be, we can't help but subconsciously judge. That's why she felt terrible - that contradiction.

Isn't that just a human condition though? we are hard wired to judge those who are different from what our society seems as normal. There was a time when being different may have resulted in you getting eaten by something.

So my point is that she said she feels genuinely horrible for having a perfectly natural response to something that is out of the norm in western society. I appreciate there is a contradiction but my point is still valid isnt it, the idea of feeling so bad because of a thought is a bit extreme?