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I need feminism because... [READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    sullivlo wrote: »
    I could be wrong but I'm not sure whether this is a feminism issue, or just an absolutely messed up anti-Islam issue.

    Either way, its ****.

    Yeah, it's particularly Islam dress that's the issue, isn't it, not the way women dress, per se? If she had been on the beach in jeans, long-sleeved top and a sun-hat this surely wouldn't have happened.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    You can't hide explosives in a beard. While I don't overly like what they are doing I can completely understand why they have tear gas ready.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    My point is that authoritarianism whether religious or otherwise regularly manifests itself as a disturbing level of interest in how women choose to dress. I'm no fan of what a burka or chador represent, but I'm damn well against forcing a woman to undress to match my expectations of what 'acceptable' is.

    Edit: this is a burkini:

    NtgA3vv.jpg

    It's basically like pyjamas with a hood, slightly more coverage than a wetsuit.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    But what women wear is related to their religion rather than their gender. It's not solely a religious issue, but it's most defo not solely a feminism issue.

    Women should be allowed to wear what they like. In France they are. Once its not a Burka.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    I never said it was solely a feminist issue, but it is absolutely notable that of all the measures they could have chosen to implement, they chose the easy path of targeting how women dress on the beach, intersectionality and all that jazz.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    If she took that hood piece off, it couldn't easily be identified as burka-inspired swimwear, so it's really the head-piece that's the issue, therefore a religious issue, mainly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Crochet


    There is not a single non Muslim woman in France who would wear that on a hot sunny day at the beach. Bearing that fact in mind it doesn't make sense that a subset of Islamic women would choose it given complete freedom of choice. Do Islamic men dress like that considering they do have complete freedom of choice? Absolutely not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    meeeeh wrote: »
    You can't hide explosives in a beard. While I don't overly like what they are doing I can completely understand why they have tear gas ready.

    In what world can you hide explosives in a burkini? Seriously, it's actually quite fitted. And why, when 90% of the fanatical extremist terrorists are men, is this fairly innocuous piece of clothing freaking people out so much? It's an easy visual target, and once again, women are the scapegoats. What do they think is going to happen that they would need to be ready to spray someone, whose only "crime" is wearing a piece of clothing, with TEAR GAS????

    The reason I see this as a feminist issue is because she was forced, under threat of personal violence from men, to get undressed in public. If that isn't a feminist issue I have no idea what is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    In what world can you hide explosives in a burkini? Seriously, it's actually quite fitted. And why, when 90% of the fanatical extremist terrorists and men, is this fairly innocuous piece of clothing freaking people out so much? It's an easy visual target, and once again, women are the scapegoats. What do they think is going to happen that they would need to be ready to spray someone, whose only "crime" is wearing a piece of clothing, with TEAR GAS????

    The reason I see this as a feminist issue is because she was forced, under threat of personal violence from men, to get undressed in public. If that isn't a feminist issue I have no idea what is.
    Oh yeah it's all about picking on women. I am sure muslim men suffer absolutely no hassle in France at the moment.

    I don't agree with the ban and I think it's stupid exactly because it will lead to situations like this. And cause unnecessary distress to women who are already trodden on by their religion. Still let's not pretend burkini is symbol of female liberation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Crochet


    meeeeh wrote: »
    And cause unnecessary distress to women who are already trodden on by their religion. Still let's not pretend burkini is symbol of female liberation.

    I take your point but if the state doesnt tackle this oppression then who will? I would hate if I had to explain to my daughter that a women wears one of these because she is oppressed. She would think that in certain circumstances the state allows oppression of women.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    It should be pointed out that the inventor of the burkini is an Australian muslim woman whose aim in making it was to make it easier for muslim women to participate in swimming and other sports activities.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/24/i-created-the-burkini-to-give-women-freedom-not-to-take-it-away

    I'm profoundly uncomfortable with the idea of telling women from other cultures that either they must adhere to all the cultural norms of my society or stay out of sight. That's the Saudi way, not mine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 335 ✭✭cookiexx


    Don't really get the burkini outrage to be honest.

    France is a secular country. It bans public displays of conspicuous signs of religion, the burkini is a sign of Islamic extremism not consistent with France's secularism. France has had a catastrophic couple of years where it's failed to stop several high profile terror attacks so of course they're going to become less tolerant to public displays of religious fanaticism. France is reeling right now. These sorts of provincial reactions are understandable.

    Many women won't be forced to wear burkinis, but in choosing to do so, they're making a statement about the importance of "modesty" - for women - but not for men. Something that's woven into the fabric of Islam - that women cannot be so "immodest" as to "flaunt their bodies" to surrounding men. It's fundamentally a patriarchal idea tied up with the notion that women are "owned" by their father until marriage, when they transfer ownership to the husband. How does that fit with the modern progressive notion of feminism?


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Crochet


    B0jangles wrote: »
    I'm profoundly uncomfortable with the idea of telling women from other cultures that either they must adhere to all the cultural norms of my society or stay out of sight. That's the Saudi way, not mine.

    You are saying that culture supersedes the freedom of women. That is simply wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    The burkini is not a sign of islamic extremism, as I just posted it was invented about a decade ago in Australia to give muslim women more options in swimwear. The woman at the centre of the actual story wasn't even wearing one, she was wearing an ordinary top with leggings, she just happened to also be wearing a headscarf.

    To me, feminism is about empowering women to make free choices about how they want to live their lives, not instructing them to live as I think they should.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    Crochet wrote: »
    I take your point but if the state doesnt tackle this oppression then who will? I would hate if I had to explain to my daughter that a women wears one of these because she is oppressed. She would think that in certain circumstances the state allows oppression of women.

    Why are you so convinced that women who wear the hijab, or niqab, or even the burka are "oppressed"? Perhaps it is actually their choice?

    Check out from 1:37 in this video (actually the whole video is great but please do watch from there as it addresses this really well)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Crochet wrote: »
    You are saying that culture supersedes the freedom of women. That is simply wrong.

    That's pretty much the opposite of what I said? I believe women should be free to choose how to live their lives. I am opposed to women being forced to wear chadors/burkas, I am just as opposed to women being forced to remove clothing, especially when its done in public and under the threat of violence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Crochet


    B0jangles wrote: »
    I believe women should be free to choose how to live their lives.

    Can a woman freely choose to leave a conservative Islamic culture? I'm not quite sure they can.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    Crochet wrote: »
    Can a woman freely choose to leave a conservative Islamic culture? I'm not quite sure they can.

    I didn't realise that the Muslim women I've met who have come from a different country were figments of my imagination.

    I didn't realise the mixed marriages I know between Muslims and non-Muslims were also all my head.

    I didn't realise we were just going to completely ignore the many thousands/ millions of Muslim women who repeatedly speak their minds, and are encouraged to do so by their friends and family.

    There's a hint of Donald Trump about this view- remember that Muslim wife he was so convinced was told not to speak out?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Crochet wrote: »
    Can a woman freely choose to leave a conservative Islamic culture? I'm not quite sure they can.

    How do you suggest we help women trapped in such situations? Banning burkas in public spaces may mean these women will no longer be able to leave the house at all.

    Focussing on eliminating the outward trappings of culture like clothing is unhelpful and patronizing; better to focus on access to the legal system, education, social services and so on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 335 ✭✭cookiexx


    B0jangles wrote: »
    The burkini is not a sign of islamic extremism, as I just posted it was invented about a decade ago in Australia to give muslim women more options in swimwear. The woman at the centre of the actual story wasn't even wearing one, she was wearing an ordinary top with leggings, she just happened to also be wearing a headscarf.

    I read that article and I stopped at modesty. And "we chose to be modest". The implication being that women who don't cover their hair and their shape are immodest, courting attention, undignified, provocative in some way simply for being visible.

    Perhaps rather than designing garments to accommodate the extreme "modesty" imposed on women by Islam, she could have examined and challenged the necessity for those gender-exclusive modesty norms in the first place? Where's the male burkini?

    The burkini ban isn't telling women they can't cover up on public beaches if they so choose. It's telling them they can't specifically adorn demonstrative beachwear which displays religious affiliation, at a time when France and places of worship are currently the target of terrorist attacks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    And likewise think of not too far in the past here in Ireland. Conservative Irish Catholic culture wasn't exactly a laugh a minute ride for women. Sure, you could get away with wearing a pair of standard togs but you could also be raped legally by your husband, legally obliged to stop working after you got married and if you don't know what a hitching is I'd advise you to google. Yes there's a religious element to it but feminism had a massive hand in bringing about change.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 11,362 ✭✭✭✭Scarinae


    B0jangles wrote: »
    It should be pointed out that the inventor of the burkini is an Australian muslim woman whose aim in making it was to make it easier for muslim women to participate in swimming and other sports activities.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/24/i-created-the-burkini-to-give-women-freedom-not-to-take-it-away

    My flatmate went to school in the English midlands where there are a lot of people of Pakistani heritage. She told me that when they had swimming lessons in primary school, many of the Muslim girls either got exemptions from swimming or they wore wetsuits (which are impractical when you’re doing a lot of indoor swimming as it gets really hot). If wearing a burkini allows girls like them to participate in sports then I think that’s a good thing.
    B0jangles wrote: »
    Some muslim men dress in a distinctive way/grow full beards - don't see a beard ban coming down the line.
    I don't know what they're actually called, but I've often seen Muslim men wearing a full-length white tunic type garment. I've never heard anyone saying, in public or private, that they're uncomfortable with men wearing these.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    cookiexx wrote: »
    I read that article and I stopped at modesty. And "we chose to be modest". The implication being that women who don't cover their hair and their shape are immodest, courting attention, undignified, provocative in some way simply for being visible.

    Perhaps rather than designing garments to accommodate the extreme "modesty" imposed on women by Islam, she could have examined and challenged the necessity for those gender-exclusive modesty norms in the first place? Where's the male burkini?

    The burkini ban isn't telling women they can't cover up on public beaches if they so choose. It's telling them they can't specifically adorn demonstrative beachwear which displays religious affiliation, at a time when France and places of worship are currently the target of terrorist attacks.


    Did you read the original article?
    On Tuesday a 34-year-old mother of two, whose family have been French citizens for at least three generations, told French news agency AFP she had been fined on the beach in Cannes, 18 miles from Nice, for wearing leggings, a top and a headscarf.

    The former air-hostess from Toulouse was issued a ticket saying she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.

    “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” she said. “I wasn't even planning to swim, just to dip my feet.”

    After initially refusing to undress in front of the officers who were reportedly holding tear gas canisters, she was issued with an on-the-spot fine while other people on the beach allegedly shouted insults, telling her to “go home”.

    This woman was charged, forced to remove clothing and fined for being visibly muslim to the extent of wearing a headscarf.

    On the topic of modesty, we all have our own standards; I woudn't go on a nudist beach or go around topless because I'd feel uncomfortable, that's my choice. By the same standard, a muslim woman choosing to wear or not wear a headscarf is 100% none of my business.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Crochet


    Oh lets not fool ourselves. ....its clearly an outward expression of oppression, not freedom.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 335 ✭✭cookiexx


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Did you read the original article?

    This woman was charged, forced to remove clothing and fined for being visibly muslim to the extent of wearing a headscarf.

    Yes. And France is secular. A country with over 100 years of strict French secular laws applying to all. Muslim garments included.
    B0jangles wrote: »
    On the topic of modesty, we all have our own standards; I woudn't go on a nudist beach or go around topless because I'd feel uncomfortable, that's my choice. By the same standard, a muslim woman choosing to wear or not wear a headscarf is 100% none of my business.

    Yes that is your choice. Do you think that Muslim women have the same choice and this notion of the visible female form being immodest and indignant is one they can choose to subscribe or unsubscribe from depending on the day? And not one that they are forced into because of an oppressive belief system?

    I'm all for personal choice, go to the beach in a burkini or a bikini or dressed as a Stormtrooper for all I care, but let's call a spade a spade, the burkini is a religious garment that was created because women's bodies are seen as something to be hidden in Islamic culture and any behaviours to the contrary are not tolerated.

    Honestly I think this liberal media faux-outrage is pretty arrogant and massively insensitive towards France and the incredible fear and trauma it is going through. Not to mention France's values, history and legal system. Some countries like the UK prize individual liberty while other countries like France prize everyone's right to secularism in the public sphere. Neither is "right" or "better" than the other.

    Add to that 230+ innocent victims in Islamic terror attacks since 2015 and of course they're going to be cracking down on their secular laws.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    My outrage at seeing a woman forced to remove clothing under threat of violence is anything but faux, thank you. If France is as indiscriminately secular as you claim, why are nuns allowed to wear habits in public?

    I believe that muslim women as as intelligent as any other group of women, I'm not so arrogant to assume that they are incapable of making choices about how they dress without guidance from people like me.

    I can absolutely understand that there is a terrible sense of rage and fear in France as a result of the horrific attacks which have taken place, but using the law to harass women for the crime of being visibly muslim in a public place is fundamentally abhorrent and completely counter-productive when it comes to preventing future attacks.

    What effect do you think hearing about such events have on already alienated and frustrated people who are being told by IS recruiters that the West hates them and wants to destroy them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    How many Muslim women have you actually spoken to to gauge their opinions on whether they are oppressed by their religion? Or are you basing all of your opinions on the material In the media?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Any nuns hanging around the beaches


  • Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    I live in an area with a relatively large Muslim population - I see quite a few women at the pool dressed like this (or in the Sports Direct version of a rash guard and leggings). I really don't see the problem with them, better to have women out and participating in swimming in modest clothing than being stuck at home.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    Tits out or you're a terrorist. Apparently.


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