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Mandatory vaccination in Ireland

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Comments

  • Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    this link is from the Irish Times, 6 weeks ago ://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ireland-in-lead-with-vaccination-coverage-and-lowest-death-rate-in-eu-1.4736775


    So its hardly out of date and hardly inaccurate..... Portugal was 2nd after Ireland at that stage......so you're splitting hairs. We all know that Ireland has been one of the most compliant populations when it comes to vaccination. Yet we still live with multiple restrictions and an 8pm curfew on all night life. Funny that!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,570 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    It's 7 weeks old and in terms of accuracy as of today, out of date. That's not my opinion.

    It also doesn't back up the claim you read on the Daily Mail comment section.

    It does contain pertinent data though.

    Ireland has the highest vaccination coverage and among the lowest death rates from Covid-19 in the European Union, according to new data showing that vaccination radically cuts how often people die when infected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I think the severity of the restrictions on the unvaccinated, such as digital certs and barring them from jobs (has not happened here in Ireland but has in influential countries like US, Canada, Italy, Oz), paradoxically fires up the vaccinated against the unvaccinated.

    These measures are very extreme and so to support them you'd almost have to rile yourself up a bit.

    When I am reading histories of 17th and 18th century France it reminds of the barring of Huguenots from public worship and most good jobs. (Some churches require certs now so even the religious parallel is not as fanciful as it seems).

    Of course they could go and convert and a get certificate of Catholicism (a real thing, required for professions like practicing law) anytime so it was all their own fault supposedly. One noble complained that a part of France (forget where) was "a nest of Huguenots".

    Also the higher the vaccination rate the more the pressure and bitterness increases, since if the mob knew that 40% of the population were unvaccinated would they be as confident in lashing out at them?

    The more powerless the unvax seem the more hassle they get - and also being comprised of marginal groups like travellers, Central and Eastern Europeans and people who are high in disagreeableness/ not pro-social.

    The certs are a disaster since we can all be arm-twisted into taking multiple boosters and having to justify ourselves everywhere we go.

    The explosions of anger and profanity against the unvaccinated on boards is something I observe with a cold eye. It doesn't build credibility for the case of the 'follow the science' people, it looks very suspect to me.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The shortcomings in their knowledge about vaccines and their ability to latch on to obscure research and opinions mostly. How many times have you read posts or heard people say that vaccines don’t work because vaccinated people still catch Covid?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,595 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Ok yes but that doesn't explain the anger, the vitriol. I know people who are furious about unvaccinated people and I am not sure they even know why they are so angry. You even see it within families.

    I personally don't give a damn if the person beside me is unvaccinated. The risk is on him/her for the most part and if they are happy to accept that risk, then off with them.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Pawinho


    There are not many critical thinkers in Irish society. You will do whatever these experts say, whether they are from NPHet, IMF, ECB. Basically you don't know what is best for you, somebody must tell you that what is good for your herd



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭charlie_says






  • Just want to point out giving an at-risk person a mask is pointless.

    Masks help to stop you spreading covid not catching covid.

    Honestly this kind of thing here is exactly where we failed with the pandemic— there’s too many who still don’t fully understand how things should & do work and that’s not a dig at the quoted post either, it’s rampant.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I suppose this is the other aspect, the assumption that the consequences of your decision are confined solely to you, they aren’t . There are wider considerations, most notably the affects on our mutual health system. When the proportion of hospitalisations is so wildly unbalanced, the affect on treatments of other illnesses suffers as a result of the numbers of unvaxed taking up much needed beds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,595 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Yes I did cite the impact on our health system when I posed the question. I guess our hospital system was in dire straits with people on trolleys and long waiting lists long before Covid. Can the vulnerable in 3/4% make such an impact over the long term? I believe we are talking about 45 unvaccinated people in ICU?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Mortalities have long since been a consideration when deciding restriction policies, now it is solely hospitalisations and schools. Everyone is **** sick of restrictions, if hospitalisations were lower we could all most likely get on with normal life. As long as over 50% of hospitalisations come from those 5-6% of the population who are unvaxed, restrictions will most likely continue. That pisses a whole lot of people off. Hopefully therapeutics will lower hospitalisation to the point where it won’t matter if everyone is vaccinated. But two events could plunge us back down the hole, a more dangerous variant and reduction in the numbers who take boosters, if that happens, it’s back to shittier times for all of us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,595 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    My guess is that we will see lower booster rates. I would guess approx 75-80% for various reasons. Much less for the 5-11 year olds though. I think that will be balanced by the natural immunity that people are getting now. Even the unvaccinated adults must have picked up Omicron so are we really still at the 5-6% level?

    We possibly will see another dangerous variant but you would have to expect reduced transmissibility too. That seems to be the pattern. Fingers crossed Omicron spells the end of the pandemic and restrictions.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭bokale


    Surely it helps with stopping droplets getting in too?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Again, that expectation that things must be getting better has potential to be a huge issue. Omicrone showed that a variant can mutate to be more transmissible, there is nothing to suggest another mutation with increased severity of infection isn’t a possibility. It is much better to be proactive than reactive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,137 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    No, you're entirely wrong. I can't even be bothered to explain it, do your own research, for example on the exhalation valve design on most FFP3 masks.

    Why do you think NBC suits have respirators on them? To stop the emergency responders breathing out nuclear fallout?




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There needs to be serious questions asked now as to why the health service is in such a state..there have been reports and recommendations for years, and having failed to do what they suggested, and being unable to provide a health system that can cope with 200 people needing acute care, for all the money that's thrown at it every year, those at the top of the HSE should have to answer some questions, as well as the current and three former ministers for health in government..


    That they think they can lock down society to cover for their failures for YEARS is unacceptable..



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    As long as over 50% of hospitalisations come from those 5-6% of the population who are unvaxed, restrictions will most likely continue. 

    Is this something that applies at all rates of hospitalisations?

    Like if there are 2 people in hospital and one of them is vaccinated and one of them is not, do you still believe you personally have the right to dictate what other people have injected into their bodies, or is there a cut off for you?

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I was replying to the poster who asked why people are pissed off at the unvaxed, not if I believe I personally have the right to dictate whether someone should be required to have a vaccine.

    For the record, I would not support mandatory vaccination. I still believe people should have the right to be as smart or stupid as they want to be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Ah, my bad. I thought you were giving your own opinion rather than just your read of the super-angry's.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    No if you choose not to get vaccinated then society has a right to protect itself from you. We no long low people to smoke indoors in public or work environments.

    Nobody here is advocating forcing that people be held down to have injection. Most think that there activity should be limited so as not to have infect other. Therefore there have to carry out tests to travel.on a plane, they cannot enter indoor social activity it not unreasonable. In Austria and other countries they intend that they pick up some of the extra costs of being unvaccinated.

    Its all about the right of society to protect itself

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭KieferFan69


    The vaccines don’t stop spread though.

    Also, there are loads of vaccinated in hospital.

    Also, almost everyone in ICU is vulnerable to the disease regardless of vax status.

    Also, it’s the vaccinated that have been spreading it in pubs and clubs and cafes and airplanes (vax-free always needed to be tested).

    Also, omicron is very mild.

    Also biosecurity police-state/ segregationist fantasies are not warranted for illness with 99% recovery rate.

    We are coming to the end of this now (hopefully) and some of you will need to start your transition back to being regular human beings who do not approve of discrimination based on pharmaceutical status.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I see.

    Pfizer CEO, Albert Bourla, said this week: "we know that two doses of the vaccine offer very limited protection, if any. The three doses with a booster offer reasonable protection against hospitalisation and death, and less protection against infection."

    So if it's about being "limited so as not to infect others" can I assume that you think the same restrictions should apply to anyone double vaccinated but not boosted?

    And since there is no reason to assume that booster effectiveness will last longer than the 90 days that the initial two doses do, can I assume that you think the vaccine passports of the boosted should be revoked after that amount of time has passed?

    Last one: if it is acceptable for unvaccinated people to carry out a test to travel on a plane, why is it not acceptable for them to carry out a test to gain entry to indoor activity?

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis





  • Have a link to that?

    i can’t find it from a search.

    right.. so he didn’t say that what he said was the efficiency after 20-25 weeks starts to drop (hence boosters) this is not new information & what you posted is deliberately misleading.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    It was a CNBC interview that was widely shared, and when it started getting traction on Twitter they registered a DMCA takedown for it.

    I don't know how long this copy will last:


    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis






  • A more “up to date” clear interview. And anyway, what you linked was a snippet of conversation from a much longer interview where he was talking exclusively about… wait for it..

    omicron!

    none of this is news.


    EDIT: to add also, it was DMCA’d because it’s an out of context clip being shared to spread misinformation (again). Ffs it came from telegram man like do I even have to say anymore..

    like I thought anyway that’s a completely fabricated story based on again out of context clips. Honestly if only you lot spreading this shite could mutate your angle like covid mutated.. this angle is stale by now after 2 years still posting this kinda crap, smh



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Funnily enough, the same tactics are used in current affairs with videos being snipped, used out of context or even edited to try and back their narrative.

    When caught, it almost always says more about the person pushing the video than the video itself said.

    And that person always fails to realise this or learn from it.





  • Yeah that’s what this is clearly. Very convenient it’s been edited to remove the part where it’s made clear the discussion being referenced regards Omicrom specifically… you know cos they’re talking about the v1.1 shot coming in March…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,114 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    And how does it being about omicron invalidate what was said? Omicron IS the dominant strain now, so of course the current vaccine efficacy against omicron is relevant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    MilkyToast may have to burn this account now (joking, I'm sure this was just a one off from telegram and the discourse standard will be raised in the future, time will tell).





  • I didn’t say it wasn’t relevant I said it’s misleading.

    they’re speaking broadly about vaccines as a whole not specifically vaccines re omicron.

    do you not find it at all odd that the clip removed any mention of omi? If the point wasn’t to discourage vaccines overall that wouldn’t need to be removed?

    its also worth pointing out that as well as the v1.1 shot coming in March, the CEO has said it may not even be required. So obviously the conclusion to draw from this is the vaccines ARE working albeit not as well with Omi, but well enough to the point where they may not even necessarily need to push the v1.1 shot above v1.0.

    That post was misleading no matter what way you frame it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    again missinformation and rubbish. Vaccines reduce spread and effect of disease

    Again missinformation mis quoting and rubbish

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig






  • I mean unless every case has been genome sequenced to find out it’s an unsafe assumption to draw that delta or other variants are not presently in circulation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Most countries allow a test result for indoor entry (and we may be in breach of EU law since the certs were designed for travel.)

    Is the goal to prevent infections or to spite people and wear them down?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I thought I heard recently that 80-90% of cases are now omicron?





  • Again, unless those cases underwent genome sequencing its an educated guess I would imagine.

    I’m not saying they weren’t, but I know we don’t check every case either to see what variant it is because that would be pointless and of course a huge burden on the labs.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Ok but I don't see your point then. Pfizer presumably have an idea of the levels of omicron and have advised the effectiveness of the vaccine for that. If we are conservative and say 70% is omicron is what was quoted not broadly correct?



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    What?

    Omicron is the dominant variant right now, so the vaccine's effectiveness against omicron is really the only thing that matters.

    I mean I could have stipulated that the vaccines retain more but varying effectiveness against wild type, alpha, delta and all the other variants, but how is it relevant to whether they should be mandated right now?

    I have no idea where the video came from, other than it being a clip from a CNBC interview. I was asked for a link, found it missing because of the DMCA, searched YouTube for it, and posted it.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    What site did you see it on first?

    What was your old username out of interest? (I usually don't pay attention to these things and assume everyone is who they say they are rather than getting bogged down in calling people shills and bots).



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    What site did you see it on first?

    I don't remember, possibly Twitter?

    What was your old username out of interest? (I usually don't pay attention to these things and assume everyone is who they say they are rather than getting bogged down in calling people shills and bots).

    😬

    I didn't post much and wasn't on boards for very long with it, so it's not really relevant. Since the account name (stupidly) was such that it made some RL info about me identifiable, I won't say.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's not a once in a generation pandemic. It's a once in a generation response to a virus. It's a pandemic, but the virus is mild for the vast majority of people.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It is actually. Well, more so for England than the other UK countries. The reason England is one of the freest countries in Europe is because it can do its own thing. EU countries have to follow EU law. The latest the 9 month vaccine cert thing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But Jim2007, the lifestyle of a vaccinated person will be a restricted one too. A pass will be required everywhere, masks, will have to socially distance etc.


    Varadkar has spoken of 'periods of freedom'. Won't be proper freedom. And mentioned summer 2023 in a recent interview: This Should Be 'Summer Of Freedom In Ireland' - Varadkar (todayfm.com)


    "I don't want summer 2023 in Ireland to be the summer in which we've the worst restrictions in Europe, or the toughest restrictions in Europe.

    "I want 2023 to be a summer of freedom in Ireland, if that's possible."


    Note 'if that's possible'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    People also fail to realize that majority of "unvaccinated" scum are mostly people like me who already contracted covid and recovered from it. I was symptomatic only first time and only got it second time after having to sit in tiny room for one hour with a person who was fully vaxxed but decided to come to work despite being clearly unwell. Nevertheless, I should thank him as he just boosted me before boosers become even a thing.

    Naturally gained immunity is far more superior than any currently available vaccine can offer. My second covid was without any symptoms I was cleared to go back to work 4 days after positive pcr test.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,304 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    How so? Tell me how it is one of the "freest" countries in Europe? What are the tangible benefits?

    Financially it has been an absolute disaster. It was a disaster before the pandemic. It hasn't even been fully implemented yet...which will lead to more impact.



    Or take one industry even fishing.

    Terrible deal, the industry in UK is pretty much decimated.

    You are saying EU countries have to follow EU laws....like it is a bad thing? How do you think food standards are going to look in the UK post Brexit? Bring on the chlorinated chicken and dodgy additives!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Freest in terms of covid, I mean. The only good thing about Ireland is that it's next door to England. Irish people are fortunate that they can live and work in England without difficulty. It's been a great joy to go to England many times in the past year and a bit. A great despair to return to Ireland.


    And you're focusing on financial and economic issues only. What about being an independent country again? Restoring a rich history and culture of liberty?


    It is a bad thing when the EU can just announce that a future measure is binding. As it did recently with the vaccine passport.


    Anyway, we're going a bit off topic here. On mandatory vaccination, I think it will come in in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,304 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    You mean as in restrictions? Or what? England has had less restrictions alright. But have England not had more than twice as many deaths per head of population than Ireland? England 131k versus Ireland approx 6k. 56m people versus 5 million. This is despite the UK making a flying start to vaccinations.

    A "rich history"...being in the EU doesn't take away our history... we are an independent country but we have to work to certain rules as part of EU...which the UK has to do to if they want to trade..which they have found out to their peril...when Brexit is fully implemented it will be even more of a disaster.

    "Culture of liberty" what does that even mean?! Give me a break.

    We have benefited and continue to benefit massively from being part of the EU. We went from one of the poorest countries in Europe.

    There is also zero appetite in Ireland to leave the EU...all recent polls show 82+% of people here want to remain part of the EU and it is higher among younger people.


    Back on topic.

    I don't think we will bring in mandatory vaccinations other EU countries have chosen to bring them in, but very little appetite here. We can make our own decisions on things like this while being part of the EU...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,570 ✭✭✭✭Boggles




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