Report on High Percentage of Traveller Unemployment

nullzero wrote: »

There's truth in what you're saying, but there is no comparison between Traveller culture in Ireland and African Americans who are and have been part of all sections of American society from the very bottom rungs of the societal ladder all the way up to president of the country. Being a black person doesn't constrain in a similar way to being a part of the travelling community here in Ireland. Being black does not correlate in the same way to issues of criminality and anti social behaviour in the same way as it does with travellers, in that way the comparison the other poster made wasn't a strong one, but rather in my opinion an attempt to use emotive language to crowbar something into this argument that has no place in it.

Go back a few decades to when the average Irish person was poor as was the average traveller. Let’s say 40’s and 50’s. Ireland was mainly agricultural and lots of children left school early to either help on family farm ( most farmers were small) or work to help the family. In the 1967 there was a big change thanks to the introduction of Free second level education. So we went from my grandparents generation where very few finished school and many worked from 13/14/15 to the generation of my parents, aunts and uncles where it was normal to do your leaving cert. However, this shift didn’t occur in the traveller community. This to me is why the experience of black people in America is not similar to travellers in Ireland. Travellers got left behind during the huge change in Irish society when we went from a country that was mostly agricultural, limited education to an urban, highly educated/skilled society. They weren’t the only ones left behind.

Here IMO is a much better comparison:

During the famine there was mass emigration from Ireland to the US/UK. The Irish arrived in their droves, often extremely poor, dressed in rags, many were sick/carrying disease and were catholic. The Irish were marginalized to a varying extent when then first arrived depending on where they ended up. Wasn't "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish" a thing?

Fast forward numerous years and now we have some Americans that are extremely proud of their Irish heritage (even if its a tenuous link!) and I think there's a saying "the Irish built Boston/America" or similar?

I'm not aware of a big wave of pro-Irish supports or political movements that helped that perception change at that time, perhaps Abe Lincoln helped when he said all men are equal (except negroes, which of course we all wish he didn't add) but essentially the Irish kept the head down, worked hard in often terrible/dangerous jobs and brought the change in perception about.
Nothing about the system was bent to accommodate the Irish.



There has been reports of Irish Travellers going abroad (I think Australia was a recent one) and setting up shop. They are in a new country away from the prejudiced views of the settled Irish community and can build a new life for themselves. There's plenty of work in Oz, especially in trades and decent pay too.
Unfortunately they have made a bit of a name for themselves regarding their deeds over there too, which has resulted in some "tourists" being deported. Travellers seem to have an easier time with the local Gardai than with police forces in foreign locales but that's besides the point.

Now don't think for a second that means Travellers are being forced to emigrate to be treated fairly, it is possible to make small meaningful change right here.

Taking the travellers being denied wedding/funeral celebrations and access to pubs in general point as an example.

Obviously businesses want to make money and you'd think turning away customers would be bad business, so there must be some consequence that outweighs the financial incentive right?
While not every traveller causes trouble, the perception is that they can be loud, boisterous and a bit of bother, especially when drink is involved and tempers flare. Its foolish to think otherwise.

Now if I was a traveller and wanted to have a drink but I knew my mates were always causing hassle I simply wouldn't take them with me. I'd go on my own to a nice quiet pub, maybe watch a match have a pint and some food.
Get to know the bar tender/regulars. After a while take a mate with you who you know is not a dumbass and introduce him to the group etc.
Keep this up for a few months and I'm sure you be able to book a small, low-key christening party for your kid with little bother, especially if you acknowledge there is problems within your community but you assure them there won't be hassle. Now imagine more and more travellers did the same, and almost more importantly condemned those that did cause aggro.

People have to accept the reality that rightly or wrongly that many travellers are not going to be trusted straight off the bat, they wont be given the benefit of the doubt. It may not be fair or right but that is the honest situation. Forcing businesses to accept travellers will do nothing to change the perception unless the behaviour changes.

ED E wrote: »

If I wanted to live as an Aztec priest in Dublin 1 and sacrifice humans atop liberty in hall that wouldn't be accepted in 2021. We've moved on. Same goes for the lifestyle that travellers as trying to hold onto with all their might.

Careful now. That's a Sweeping generalization about Aztec Priests. I'm sure only a high profile minority of the Aztec Priests committed those crimes. The rest of the Aztec priests just went about their day to day lives in the face of unfair resentment and fear from the general population who irrationally think all Aztec Priests will slit their throats. You don't want to draw down the wrath of the mighty with sweeping gereralizations....

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

They are closed because its not worth the risk of the place being smashed up if a fight kicks off.

And this risk is informed by a stereotype.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My dad owned a pub, I grew up there. The Gardai go door and inform all the businesses in a town when there's an upcoming traveller funeral. This still happens to this day.

You being an American wouldn't know this and are showing you know little about the situation!

Because I never drank in Clareacastle for years and know nothing of this practice?

Ah ****, racial stereotyping has bamboozled you again: Americans aren’t supposed to have experience living in Ireland! That’s not a trait of the American race! Does not compute!

Put another way:

“My dad runs a bar, and when I was little all the fellow klansmen cops would go door to door to warn the bars of a black wedding or funeral came to town.”

Again nothing in your anecdote about the travelers proves that the Irish aren’t racist to travelers. You’ve only admitted that the racism extended into the An Garda Siochana (sp?)

Overheal wrote:

Again nothing in your anecdote about the travelers proves that the Irish aren’t racist to travelers. You’ve only admitted that the racism extended into the An Garda Siochana (sp?)

Racism is when you apply an untrue stereotype. Unfortunately for travelers, the stereotype is more true than not.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

No its because it has happened numerous times and thousands of euro worth of damage has been done to the premises.

And black people talking at the movie screen at a theater has happened numerous times, and I've seen it. That does not make it less of a racist stereotype.

If your security policy relies on getting advance warning by means of racial profiling, then your security policy does not serve your needs.

Overheal wrote: »

And black people talking at the movie screen at a theater has happened numerous times, and I've seen it. That does not make it less of a racist stereotype.

If your security policy relies on getting advance warning by means of racial profiling, then your security policy does not serve your needs.

You're just embarrassing yourself at this stage, I'm not going to go telling yanks about whats going on in your country because I don't live there so maybe you should do the same seeing as you obviously haven't a clue about the topic under discussion.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You're just embarrassing yourself at this stage, I'm not going to go telling yanks about whats going on in your country because I don't live there so maybe you should do the same seeing as you obviously haven't a clue about the topic under discussion.

Way to deflect in a conversation about racism by dismissing other viewpoints based on the race of the person expressing them.

Nowhere do I see any valid attempt by you to logically rebut what I said. So either, what I have said is wrong, and you can explain how it is wrong without being racist, or it is a valid observation: that, if your security requires forewarning through racial profiling, then it is not an acceptable means of security in a culture that claims to forcibly denounce racism.

Haven’t read the whole thread but the main issue is their parents/family members just don’t expect them to finish school and go off to work. Especially the girls/women. There are exceptions though. I went to school with a traveller who’s Mother made sure all her children finished school. The girl in my class has a business studies degree and now owns her own very successful business. Her sister is also extremely successful in her career. I’m sure the same would happen if other travellers had this sort of encouragement and support from their parents.