Report on High Percentage of Traveller Unemployment

Lillyfae

Lillyfae wrote: »

Not really. People interviewing for an admin position don’t usually have HR department’s recommending that they work in childcare.

Lillyfae, for context, the traveller woman referred to worked with me in an administration role in my Section within a goverment department as part of a pilot scheme for travellers within the civil service.

After the pilot scheme finished, she tried to find work in another office in an admin position, but could not get a start anywhere - despite glowing references from us.

The only work she could get afterwards, was in a creche, as a childcare worker.

purplefields

Strumms wrote: »

A very small percentage of traveler children go on to complete the leaving cert. a smaller percentage again go to third level education...

So basically they are making choices or having choices made for them in their communities that make them less employable and less qualified to get jobs..

It’s not rocket science... don’t put in the effort, don’t expect rewards...don’t push yourself to do better, don’t expect progress.

Who is to say all that is 'progress'?

Like many people, I've worked my arse off all my life and now have an office job. Looking back at my 'career', I have probably wasted my life.

Really, what's the point? - work, work, work... and for what? - so I can pay more tax?, buy more tat?

In lreland, working your arse off does not lift your standard of living by much. It most likely decreases it. You have less time and more stress for little extra money once the taxman gets stuck in.
No. I believe I'd prefer the traveller life style.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Lillyfae, for context, the traveller woman referred to worked with me in an administration role in my Section within a goverment department as part of a pilot scheme for travellers within the civil service.

After the pilot scheme finished, she tried to find work in another office in an admin position, but could not get a start anywhere - despite glowing references from us.

The only work she could get afterwards, was in a creche, as a childcare worker.

Even though she had experience and was ostensibly qualified?

corner of hells

purplefields wrote: »

Who is to say all that is 'progress'?

Like many people, I've worked my arse off all my life and now have an office job. Looking back at my 'career', I have probably wasted my life.

Really, what's the point? - work, work, work... and for what? - so I can pay more tax?, buy more tat?

In lreland, working your arse off does not lift your standard of living by much. It most likely decreases it. You have less time and more stress for little extra money once the taxman gets stuck in.
No. I believe I'd prefer the traveller life style.

I take it ,thats a joke.

lawred2

this needed a report?

suicide_circus

Overheal wrote: »

Or is it Ireland’s culture that is failing?

Replacing the word traveler with black and reading this thread reveals fascinating attitudes/relationships in Irish culture about their segregated minority.

The recent race report in the UK found that black kids of Caribbean origin had worse educational and financial outcomes than black kids of African origin. It also found that kids of chinese and indian origin had had better outcomes than kids of white british origins. The difference is culture and the value placed on education.

purplefields

Overheal wrote: »

Or is it Ireland’s culture that is failing?

Replacing the word traveler with black and reading this thread reveals fascinating attitudes/relationships in Irish culture about their segregated minority.

Indeed.
Except the thread would probably be locked.

purplefields

corner of hells wrote: »

I take it ,thats a joke.

Absolutely not.

Looking out a the precious sunshine now, wishing I was out there. Instead I'm slaving away to pay the taxman.

Lillyfae

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Lillyfae, for context, the traveller woman referred to worked with me in an administration role in my Section within a goverment department as part of a pilot scheme for travellers within the civil service.

After the pilot scheme finished, she tried to find work in another office in an admin position, but could not get a start anywhere - despite glowing references from us.

The only work she could get afterwards, was in a creche, as a childcare worker.

Thanks for clarifying Loueze. That’s sh*t, it really is. I personally admire anyone who will go against adversity to succeed in what they want to do.

How long was the scheme? Did she have a qualification or was it just the scheme that she’d completed? If she was up against people who had certs/ diplomas or degrees and experience then it would be hard to justify hiring someone who just had the CE scheme experience.

Dyr

suicide_circus wrote: »

The recent race report in the UK found that black kids of Caribbean origin had worse educational and financial outcomes than black kids of African origin. It also found that kids of chinese and indian origin had had better outcomes than kids of white british origins. The difference is culture and the value placed on education.

Think it found that poor white boys have the worse educational outcome of the lot

Overheal

suicide_circus wrote: »

The recent race report in the UK found that black kids of Caribbean origin had worse educational and financial outcomes than black kids of African origin. It also found that kids of chinese and indian origin had had better outcomes than kids of white british origins. The difference is culture and the value placed on education.

Culture absolutely plays a role, the culture of family cohesion and obstructing family members from becoming financially independent or socially integrating, also plays a massive role. That's not to say that there aren't still other roles that society plays in any marginalization. Attitudes like 'I won't hire a traveler in my office,' or comparing travelers to animals. There's no fix I'm aware of for that, but the awareness is still as important.

Overheal

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying Loueze. That’s sh*t, it really is. I personally admire anyone who will go against adversity to succeed in what they want to do.

How long was the scheme? Did she have a qualification or was it just the scheme that she’d completed? If she was up against people who had certs/ diplomas or degrees and experience then it would be hard to justify hiring someone who just had the CE scheme experience.

You never know who you are up against, except in rare circumstances.

I'd think you'd also have to inquire as to whether there was full employment or a lack of openings in the field - which there wasn't if applications were going on.

Strumms

purplefields wrote: »

Who is to say all that is 'progress'?

Like many people, I've worked my arse off all my life and now have an office job. Looking back at my 'career', I have probably wasted my life.

Really, what's the point? - work, work, work... and for what? - so I can pay more tax?, buy more tat?

In lreland, working your arse off does not lift your standard of living by much. It most likely decreases it. You have less time and more stress for little extra money once the taxman gets stuck in.
No. I believe I'd prefer the traveller life style.

Yep, 100%, I am person who in 2016, was within a hairs breath of breathing my last as a result of a career choice and subsequent resultant medical misadventure.. I’ve certainly learned from that.

You should work to live not live to work.

hawley

There's needs to be something done to promote the choice of education in the community. Article from today's newspaper about trouble being caused in Mullingar.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.ie/news/6848520/traveller-fued-violence-devils-playground-estate-westmeath/amp/

Who would have thought a pattern of early school leaving, overall poor school attendance, and a subsequent fall into criminality would have a negative impact on your career prospects??? I for one am shocked by this startling revelation.

Next weeks report, water is wet.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Who would have thought a pattern of early school leaving, overall poor school attendance, and a subsequent fall into criminality would have a negative impact on your career prospects??? I for one am shocked by this startling revelation.

Next weeks report, water is wet.

Unless you do the numbers and perform the analysis sure you have a vague idea that water is wet but you know **** all of how wet it is. its density, it's viscosity, melting and freezing point, etc. - now Ireland has a fairly accurate look at the scope of the unemployment in that category.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Unless you do the numbers and perform the analysis sure you have a vague idea that water is wet but you know **** all of how wet it is. its density, it's viscosity, melting and freezing point, etc. - now Ireland has a fairly accurate look at the scope of the unemployment in that category.

I don't particularly care, and I also don't particularly care about a community that refuses to be proactive and help themselves. The travelling community failed to adapt when their old way of life dried up.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't particularly care, and I also don't particularly care about a community that refuses to be proactive and help themselves. The travelling community failed to adapt when their old way of life dried up.

If you have no care, then why not stand aside for those that do and appear to be looking ever still for proactive means of bettering the Irish condition.

"Water is wet who cares" they care "well I don't." Is that the complete story arc?

Strumms

If I’m a hiring manager, if you show me a good CV, with a decent secondary education at a minimum, decent leaving cert and a couple of verifiable references in addition to an impressive interview, showing personality, initiative and intelligence, you are in the shakeup, don’t care what background you are from...

If I hire you, your CV goes on your file with interview notes... so if there is a problem down the line, I’m not going to be in the firing line, it’s all documented...

But 100% of the interviews I do, the best and most suitable candidate is hired... background or ethnicity, don’t care a fûck... only thing that should enable the hiring of a person is their suitability and competitiveness as relates to the other candidates...

Suitably is determined by the employer... Not any government, bunch of woke despots etc

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

If you have no care, then why not stand aside for those that do and appear to be looking ever still for proactive means of bettering the Irish condition.

"Water is wet who cares" they care "well I don't." Is that the complete story arc?

The conversation will be the same in 10 years time. The report will achieve nothing. Until the penny drops for the travelling community, their predicament will remain the same. They can do reports until the cows come home. The findings of this report should come as no shock to anyone but its almost delivered as if its the employers faults that there are not enough travellers out working.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

If I’m a hiring manager, if you show me a good CV, with a decent secondary education at a minimum, decent leaving cert and a couple of verifiable references in addition to an impressive interview, showing personality, initiative and intelligence, you are in the shakeup, don’t care what background you are from...

If I hire you, your CV goes on your file with interview notes... so if there is a problem down the line, I’m not going to be in the firing line, it’s all documented...

But 100% of the interviews I do, the best and most suitable candidate is hired... background or ethnicity, don’t care a fûck... only thing that should enable the hiring of a person is their suitability and competitiveness as relates to the other candidates...

Suitably is determined by the employer... Not any government, bunch of woke despots etc

As it should be. Meritocracy, not bulls*it 'woke' quotas.

Overheal

Strumms wrote: »

If I’m a hiring manager, if you show me a good CV, with a decent secondary education at a minimum, decent leaving cert and a couple of verifiable references in addition to an impressive interview, showing personality, initiative and intelligence, you are in the shakeup, don’t care what background you are from...

If I hire you, your CV goes on your file with interview notes... so if there is a problem down the line, I’m not going to be in the firing line, it’s all documented...

But 100% of the interviews I do, the best and most suitable candidate is hired... background or ethnicity, don’t care a fûck... only thing that should enable the hiring of a person is their suitability and competitiveness as relates to the other candidates...

Suitably is determined by the employer... Not any government, bunch of woke despots etc

Doesn't this mean you might miss out on excellent, if not perfectly capable hires because they are not from traditional backgrounds?

I mean I myself couldn't even apply for some roles when I came back to the US because their automated forms didn't account for foreign education background. But a more salient example is one of the lead engineers I know of for a company up the road worth several tens of millions of dollars. He never went to college but he definitely knows more than most graduates. How many companies would lose out if he applied to them but they balked at his lack of a piece of paper?

When hard social criteria are set, it creates barriers. NASA thought it was doing the right thing for the program by standardizing it's training programs (some of them anyway) to be run by a single college in West Virginia. This had the effect of obstructing marginalized members of society from moving forward with such training through no consequence of their talent or aptitude. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/25/katherine-johnson-should-also-be-remembered-desegregating-higher-education/

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

The conversation will be the same in 10 years time. The report will achieve nothing. Until the penny drops for the travelling community, their predicament will remain the same. They can do reports until the cows come home. The findings of this report should come as no shock to anyone but its almost delivered as if its the employers faults that there are not enough travellers out working.

If that is your collective attitude about trying new things or even quantifying employment data, then yes, nothing will change. Well done.

.anon.

Deleted User wrote: »

The conversation will be the same in 10 years time. The report will achieve nothing. Until the penny drops for the travelling community, their predicament will remain the same. They can do reports until the cows come home. The findings of this report should come as no shock to anyone but its almost delivered as if its the employers faults that there are not enough travellers out working.

That penny won't drop by itself. The government needs to provide compulsory additional supports in schools to prevent kids (and not just Travellers) whose parents didn't get an education from going down the same road.

Strumms

Overheal wrote: »

Doesn't this mean you might miss out on excellent, if not perfectly capable hires because they are not from traditional backgrounds?

I mean I myself couldn't even apply for some roles when I came back to the US because their automated forms didn't account for foreign education background. But a more salient example is one of the lead engineers I know of for a company up the road worth several tens of millions of dollars. He never went to college but he definitely knows more than most graduates. How many companies would lose out if he applied to them but they balked at his lack of a piece of paper?

When hard social criteria are set, it creates barriers. NASA thought it was doing the right thing for the program by standardizing it's training programs (some of them anyway) to be run by a single college in West Virginia. This had the effect of obstructing marginalized members of society from moving forward with such training through no consequence of their talent or aptitude. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/25/katherine-johnson-should-also-be-remembered-desegregating-higher-education/

The candidate knows that it’s up to them as part of that hiring process that they are entering to prove to their prospective employer they are the best candidate.

That said, if I’m a hiring manager, and I am in receipt of a CV from an employee who has received training or an education outside of Ireland, say Turkey... I’m investing a little time in establishing the exact equivalency of the grades / certs / degree that they have been awarded.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

If I’m a hiring manager, if you show me a good CV, with a decent secondary education at a minimum, decent leaving cert and a couple of verifiable references in addition to an impressive interview, showing personality, initiative and intelligence, you are in the shakeup, don’t care what background you are from...

And this is the crux of the matter. When I went through second level, the few travellers that attended all dropped out before the junior cert. And you can carve it in stone that none of then took the initiative to further their education subsequently. I understand that culture is influential, it has been customary for generations to avoid placing emphasis on schooling. Fine, just don't go running to daddy government for handouts when you're unwilling to put the effort in. I'm a great believer in "quid pro quo". If you're reluctant to participate in civilised society, don't expect that society to prop you up for nothing in return. Wanting all of the entitlements and none of the responsibilities is a kick in the teeth for those of us who actually contribute and pay our taxes. Finish your leaving cert, go to university or take up an apprenticeship and stop playing possum.

.anon.

.anon. wrote: »

That penny won't drop by itself. The government needs to provide compulsory additional supports in schools to prevent kids (and not just Travellers) whose parents didn't get an education from going down the same road.

Overheal wrote: »

If that is your collective attitude about trying new things or even quantifying employment data, then yes, nothing will change. Well done.

Do the reports fair enough. I just feel that this report was framed in a way that made out it's the employer's fault for not hiring travellers. I'd love to see the penny drop for more travellers and for them to embrace a lifestyle change and upskill and contribute more, of course I would, but history over the past few decades doesn't suggest that this will happen. If anything, It will probably get worse. In fact, the people who think they are helping them are actually pigeon holing them into the category of travellers.

It seems also that the only solutions being presented are quotas also which are actually quite discriminatory in their own way.

Strumms

^ this is the problem though now in society.. too many with a hand out looking to tell us what ‘they’ think they are entitled to. As opposed to expressing how they want to contribute AND be compensated too... no effort = no good.

.anon.

There were two Travellers in my class in primary school. This would've been in the early '90s. They were smart enough, but they both left halfway through sixth class, as soon as they made their Confirmation. Both dead now, incidentally. One died in a car accident, the other hung himself.

Overheal

.anon. wrote: »

That penny won't drop by itself. The government needs to provide compulsory additional supports in schools to prevent kids (and not just Travellers) whose parents didn't get an education from going down the same road.

This. It's hard to screen schoolchildren for that type of abuse at home though. Not in my area of knowledge anyway!