Report on High Percentage of Traveller Unemployment

Overheal

Akesh wrote: »

There is a lot of critical theory being subscribed to in here. The reality is that traveller culture stops the majority of travellers integrating into society. It is a society they don't want to integrate into and who could really blame them? They get away with lots more than the ordinary citizen in this country.

People want to blame society for these issues because it's popular to blame society for the injustices they perceive to be happening. It's lazy analysis and shouldn't be entertained.

But blaming the travelers community isn’t lazy? That surely swings both ways and we see a lot of responsibility being charged to the traveler community in this thread as well.

mohawk

Overheal wrote: »

Would they see higher education as unimportant because they have no opportunity in higher skilled work forces?

They have no opportunities because they don’t have the qualifications.

Have you considered education could be a threat to the traveller way of life. Once you have a secure job it’s impossible to be moving around. Their culture and way of life is very important to many of them.

I know people who have grandparents or other relatives etc that are travellers. Once their family settled or in some cases married outside the traveller community they got cut off. So those families integrated into the local community and are indistinguishable from their neighbours now. Basically the children and grandchildren have careers and some of them are hugely successful in their field. Only reason I know the family history is because in rural Ireland everyone knows peoples business.

Interestingly, the current attitude many have towards travellers is quite recent. Many in their 40’s and above have quite positive memory’s of them coming around villages and they would do odd jobs etc and get food and clothes in return. That was all gone when I was a child but I find it so interesting listening to older people talk about it as there has been such a shift in the attitude towards them.

Overheal

mohawk wrote: »

They have no opportunities because they don’t have the qualifications.

That’s surely far from the whole story...

[Deleted User] wrote: »

After she finished the programme, she did continue working, but the only job she could get was in childcare. She couldn't find an office anywhere that would give her a start in an admin role.

Jequ0n

Overheal wrote: »

That’s surely far from the whole story...

Bravo! You’re backing up your claim with one hearsay example. Better than nothing

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

And yet white Americans were scared of the blacks too. Fear doesn’t mean you can’t discriminate, clearly. Your claim that communities cannot possibly be discriminating against travelers because they are afraid of travelers doesn’t wash a drop.

That is a false equivalence.

Travellers choose live live outside of societal norms, they exclude themselves.

I was in a childrens hospital casualty a couple of years ago (minor injury for my eldest) a group of approximately 30 travellers entered, a child with them had hurt themselves from what I could see, nothing serious. The group with them began demanding to be seen before everyone else, a number of them ran to the shop situated in the hospital, they were then involved in an argument with a security guard who caught them shoplifting. A bigger argument ensued and the traveller child was brought in to see a doctor immediately. They had been seen and dealt with and left whilst the rest of us sat there like idiots.

This is the type of thing you have no grasp of. You see the situation with travellers in Ireland as analogous to black people in America. The situations are not the same and you are not qualified to comment on it, nevermind the stance you have taken where you assuming the moral high ground. A bit of humility would go a long way Overheal, none of us are omnipotent.

Lillyfae

Overheal wrote: »

That’s surely far from the whole story...

If it was a childcare course then she would be qualified to work in..... childcare.

I’ve got a degree that’s not in engineering. If I apply for an engineering position, what do you think is going to happen?

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

That is a false equivalence.

Travellers choose live live outside of societal norms, they exclude themselves.

Sure you could point to blacks “excluding themselves” and say that’s proof they aren’t discriminated against. I’m not here to argue they are equal, but they are both situations where a majority holds discriminatory attitudes against a minority.

Leave your personal attacks out of it. Do I make sweeping accusations about your character, ever? Then, don’t.

Overheal

Lillyfae wrote: »

If it was a childcare course then she would be qualified to work in..... childcare.

I’ve got a degree that’s not in engineering. If I apply for an engineering position, what do you think is going to happen?

Appears clear from the context though it’s not childcare certification but administrative.

Lillyfae

Overheal wrote: »

Appears clear from the context though it’s not childcare certification but administrative.

Not really. People interviewing for an admin position don’t usually have HR department’s recommending that they work in childcare.

mariaalice

It's a clash with modern society as well.

My mother who is long dead now use to give clothes and food to certain traveler women and would have regarded them as highly respectable people just very poor, there was always a divide between travelers like that and the other kind. I think it might have been more of a rural thing though.

Overheal

If these attitudes have changed in recent decades is the Celtic Tiger an attributor to this divide?

Lillyfae

mariaalice wrote: »

It's a clash with modern society as well.

My mother who is long dead now use to give clothes and food to certain traveler women and would have regarded them as highly respectable people just very poor, there was always a divide between travelers like that and the other kind. I think it might have been more of a rural thing though.

It’s just the last couple of generations that have been any trouble as far as I know.

Mike Murdock

Overheal wrote: »

Or is it Ireland’s culture that is failing?

Replacing the word traveler with black and reading this thread reveals fascinating attitudes/relationships in Irish culture about their segregated minority.

Always the victim, never their fault.

I got that right?

Lillyfae

Overheal wrote: »

Sure you could point to blacks “excluding themselves” and say that’s proof they aren’t discriminated against. I’m not here to argue they are equal, but they are both situations where a majority holds discriminatory attitudes against a minority.

Black people don't exclude themselves. Black gangs do. So do traveler gangs.

WrenBoy

Lillyfae wrote: »

It’s just the last couple of generations that have been any trouble as far as I know.

No need for tinkers when appliances are bought and never need repair only replacement, farm machinery means less transient labourers are required.
As a result travellers were out of a job and depended on charity and then more and more turned to criminality to get money. This criminality lead to the victims(settled community) rightly earned resentment and distrust. All initiatives to help travellers to transition and become part of the Irish society have been rejected by the travelling community.

Overheal

WrenBoy wrote: »

No need for tinkers when appliances are bought and never need repair only replacement, farm machinery means less transient labourers are required.
As a result travellers were out of a job and depended on charity and then more and more turned to criminality to get money. This criminality lead to the victims(settled community) rightly earned resentment and distrust. All initiatives to help travellers to transition and become part of the Irish society have been rejected.

So with the economic boom came a sharp divide between lifestyles?

Strumms

A very small percentage of traveler children go on to complete the leaving cert. a smaller percentage again go to third level education...

So basically they are making choices or having choices made for them in their communities that make them less employable and less qualified to get jobs..

It’s not rocket science... don’t put in the effort, don’t expect rewards...don’t push yourself to do better, don’t expect progress.

TomTomTim

WrenBoy wrote: »

No need for tinkers when appliances are bought and never need repair only replacement, farm machinery means less transient labourers are required.
As a result travellers were out of a job and depended on charity and then more and more turned to criminality to get money. This criminality lead to the victims(settled community) rightly earned resentment and distrust. All initiatives to help travellers to transition and become part of the Irish society have been rejected by the travelling community.

We've had a generous welfare state for years, so I'm not sure if this justification works.

WrenBoy

TomTomTim wrote: »

We've had a generous welfare state for years, so I'm not sure if this justification works.

Yes very generous and easily taken advantage of, which it has been.

WrenBoy

Overheal wrote: »

So with the economic boom came a sharp divide between lifestyles?

No, long before that, Ireland gradually put more emphasis on trying to raise societal standards.
Travellers for the most part refused.

What more can we do for them Overheal that hasn't already been tried over the years?

Overheal

WrenBoy wrote: »

No, long before that, Ireland gradually put more emphasis on trying to raise societal standards.
Travellers for the most part refused.

What more can we do for them Overheal that hasn't already been tried over the years?

If I had the panacea for racism/discrimination in my pocket I wouldn’t be here. Not having one does not invalidate the observation that the rift between travelers and settlers is not unilateral.

WrenBoy

Overheal wrote: »

If I had the panacea for racism/discrimination in my pocket I wouldn’t be here. Not having one does not invalidate the observation that the rift between travelers and settlers is not unilateral.

They are not a different race what are you talking about? They are as Irish as me

Overheal

WrenBoy wrote: »

They are not a different race what are you talking about? They are as Irish as me

Even though I said “/discrimination,” that hasn’t stopped you from going off the rails.

We are one race. The human race. If you want to be a pedant.

Baggly

Mod

All three of ye threadbanned. Equating humans to animals, prejudicial ****e against travellers and attacking the poster, not the post. This discussion will be inifinitely better without that crap.

This thread has largely been going the same way every thread involving travellers has gone in this forum. Everyone would do well to re-read the forum charter. Forum bans will be handed out for any more hate speech ****e.

Jequ0n wrote: »

why not replace it with the word cat instead because they outright refuse to work and only do as they please?
But I guess that wouldn’t serve your purpose of calling everyone a racist

BanditLuke wrote: »

There is absolutely no comparison between black people and travellers. Utterly disparaging remark towards black people.

SexBobomb wrote: »

Comments on Irish social cohesion from an American, no offence, I'll take that with an extremely large pinch of salt.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

Sure you could point to blacks “excluding themselves” and say that’s proof they aren’t discriminated against. I’m not here to argue they are equal, but they are both situations where a majority holds discriminatory attitudes against a minority.

Leave your personal attacks out of it. Do I make sweeping accusations about your character, ever? Then, don’t.

Black people don't exclude themselves. There is nothing that the two groups have in common. You have no understanding of the nuances of this situation and you are grandstanding about the morality of a complex situation you are incapable of understanding.

I was challenged to offer solutions to reform policing in America yesterday on another thread. I stated I wasn't qualified to make those suggestions. I do not assume I can cure all ills, I am humble enough to acknowledge that. You are accusing the entirety of Irish society of creating what equates to an apartheid state, which demonstrably isn't true.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and I don't expect that you should, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and excusing you for not being capable of understanding and you appropriate that as an accusation against your character and a personal attack. If you have a persecution complex I cannot alleviate that but I won't have you accuse my country of being hostile to people who we as a society have bent over backwards to facilitate and who still choose to throw it back in our faces.

You are adding nothing to this conversation but your own ignorance and unfounded accusations of institutional discrimination by Irish society against a group you have no insight into. That's why I said you should have some humility. You have no right to make these accusations against our society, and we shouldn't have to accept it from you.

Baggly

nullzero wrote: »

This is the type of thing you have no grasp of. You see the situation with travellers in Ireland as analogous to black people in America. The situations are not the same and you are not qualified to comment on it, nevermind the stance you have taken where you assuming the moral high ground. A bit of humility would go a long way Overheal, none of us are omnipotent.

Mod

Its a discussion forum. You can debate or ignore peoples posts, but please do not discourage others from posting their opinions or asking questions.

WrenBoy

Overheal wrote: »

Even though I said “/discrimination,” that hasn’t stopped you from going off the rails.

We are one race. The human race. If you want to be a pedant.

I shouldn't have bothered, I knew better but I did it anyway.

People don't want jobs == people don't have jobs.
People leave education as soon as legally allowed == people don't have an education.
Millions in incentives and accommodation and schemes == Rejected


What more can be done?

whisky_galore

To take up gainful employment, they need to shed some of the things that are thought of as "culture".
The tradition of ignorance and non engagement with education would be number 1.

whisky_galore

mohawk wrote: »

Interestingly, the current attitude many have towards travellers is quite recent. Many in their 40’s and above have quite positive memory’s of them coming around villages and they would do odd jobs etc and get food and clothes in return. That was all gone when I was a child but I find it so interesting listening to older people talk about it as there has been such a shift in the attitude towards them.

Their trades were killed off largely by plastic containers and replacement of horses with cars and tractors.

purplefields

touts wrote: »

There is a strong work culture among Travellers. The problem is there isn't a strong culture of taxable employment.

If that sweeping generalisation is indeed the case, then those people have a similar culture to all those MNCs that the government fawn over.