Report on High Percentage of Traveller Unemployment

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

Pub segregation is not a thing. Travellers aren't refused entry to pubs.

Really?

Deleted User wrote: »

My dad owned a pub, I grew up there. The Gardai go door and inform all the businesses in a town when there's an upcoming traveller funeral. This still happens to this day.

B00MSTICK wrote: »

[...]
Now don't think for a second that means Travellers are being forced to emigrate to be treated fairly, it is possible to make small meaningful change right here.

Taking the travellers being denied wedding/funeral celebrations and access to pubs in general point as an example.

Obviously businesses want to make money and you'd think turning away customers would be bad business, so there must be some consequence that outweighs the financial incentive right?
While not every traveller causes trouble, the perception is that they can be loud, boisterous and a bit of bother, especially when drink is involved and tempers flare. Its foolish to think otherwise.

Now if I was a traveller and wanted to have a drink but I knew my mates were always causing hassle I simply wouldn't take them with me. I'd go on my own to a nice quiet pub, maybe watch a match have a pint and some food.
Get to know the bar tender/regulars. After a while take a mate with you who you know is not a dumbass and introduce him to the group etc.
Keep this up for a few months and I'm sure you be able to book a small, low-key christening party for your kid with little bother, especially if you acknowledge there is problems within your community but you assure them there won't be hassle. Now imagine more and more travellers did the same, and almost more importantly condemned those that did cause aggro.

People have to accept the reality that rightly or wrongly that many travellers are not going to be trusted straight off the bat, they wont be given the benefit of the doubt. It may not be fair or right but that is the honest situation. Forcing businesses to accept travellers will do nothing to change the perception unless the behaviour changes.

Really!?

nullzero wrote: »

Travellers have a reputation for causing damage to businesses like pubs.

Business owners have the right to refuse entry. They can also take the step of closing of they feel their property is in danger.

It's a sad state of affairs, but small business owners cannot afford to take chances like that. It would be interesting to know what the reaction would be from an insurance company to a pub owner reporting damages caused by a traveller event.

Pub owners are wary of having large groups of travellers together in their establishments because the same issues keep happening. Settled people aren't making travellers behave that way.

That isn't the same as a traveller walking into a pub and being told "we don't serve your type get out". That type of engrained segregation isn't something that actually happens.

So it's just diet-segregation? Segregation Zero Carbs?

I think you're placing an invalid fixation of the reference I used as a point of translation in this conversation: you seem to be latching on to the idea that as long as it's not Jim Crow racism, then it's not really racism.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

Really?




Really!?








So it's just diet-segregation? Segregation Zero Carbs?

I think you're placing an invalid fixation of the reference I used as a point of translation in this conversation: you seem to be latching on to the idea that as long as it's not Jim Crow racism, then it's not really racism.

Those posts reference the issue of large gatherings.

Travellers drinking in pubs like everyone else is not an uncommon sight.

Your argument assumes that travellers are innocent in all this, that they have been unfairly accused of things they haven't done.

All the cutesy gifs and strained attempts at moral outrage don't mask your unwillingness to listen to anyone else's point of view.

Your opinion is simplistic; Travellers are innocent victims of the awful treatment meted out to them by what you characterise as a xenophobic nation who will stop at nothing to find excuses to discriminate against them.

That opinion is not something that has anything in common with reality. This has been explained at length to you but your moral superiority won't allow you to accept anything but your own opinion as valid.

If you want to see Travellers as innocent victims and characterise Ireland as an apartheid state go right ahead. The facts are at odds with your views but by all means don't let that phase you.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

Those posts reference the issue of large gatherings.

Travellers drinking in pubs like everyone else is not an uncommon sight.

Your argument assumes that travellers are innocent in all this, that they have been unfairly accused of things they haven't done.

All the cutesy gifs and strained attempts at moral outrage don't mask your unwillingness to listen to anyone else point of view.

Your opinion is simplistic; Travellers are innocent victims of the awful treatment meted out to them by what you characterise as a xenophobic nation who will stop at nothing to find excuses to discriminate against them.

That opinion is not something that has anything in common with reality. This has been explained at length to you but your moral superiority won't allow you to accept anything but your own opinion as valid.

If you want to see Travellers as innocent victims and characterise Ireland as an apartheid state go right ahead. The facts are at odds with your views but by all means don't let that phase you.

A lot of deflection to unpack there. I wasn't and still am not unwilling to listen to your point of view, we are here discussing points of view and I am listening to your point of view? Very confused about that allegation. I felt that would have been self-evident, here I was even referencing your point of view in my posts.

The only reason my view seems "simplistic" is as your tactic to marginalize and ignore it - ironic, given your strongly worded feelings about listening to other points of view. As evidence of this: you suggest on your own that I have somehow said that "Travellers are innocent victims" or somehow suggested that your nation would "stop at nothing" to promote more discrimination. If you can at all show me where I ever wrote, "Travellers are innocent victims," I'd like to hear it.

Again, "if it's not Jim Crow and it's not Apartheid, it's not racist?"

donaghs

donaghs wrote: »

Would be good to see some figures on percentage finishing secondary school, getting trade qualifications, or completing 3rd level courses.

Probably the most practical way of helping would be to look at what qualifications/training are there, and trying to fix that pipeline, before talking about discrimination etc.

A sensible and realistic proposal...heaven forbid.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

A lot of deflection to unpack there. I wasn't and still am not unwilling to listen to your point of view, we are here discussing points of view and I am listening to your point of view? Very confused about that allegation. I felt that would have been self-evident, here I was even referencing your point of view in my posts.

The only reason my view seems "simplistic" is as your tactic to marginalize and ignore it - ironic, given your strongly worded feelings about listening to other points of view. As evidence of this: you suggest on your own that I have somehow said that "Travellers are innocent victims" or somehow suggested that your nation would "stop at nothing" to promote more discrimination. If you can at all show me where I ever wrote, "Travellers are innocent victims," I'd like to hear it.

Again, "if it's not Jim Crow and it's not Apartheid, it's not racist?"

If you accept that Travellers have a part to play in improving their own lives and that they are not innocent victims why do you insist on using rhetoric referring to racism in other jurisdictions?

I'm not sure what deflection you're attempting to "unpack". You replied to my previous post stating that segregation in pubs was commonplace as evidenced by posts that were more nuanced then you seemed to care to notice. Also using a small number of posts on this thread as evidence of a nationwide campaign to keep travellers out of pubs was never going to wash.

On top of all that you punctuated and prefaced each quote with ironic "Really" 's and popped in a lovely little gif of Kermit the frog to really hammer the point home.

Without wanting to make this a personal issue Overheal, there is a difficulty inherent in being so condescending whilst concurrently expecting your views to be considered in the way you wish for them to be considered. It's all stick and no carrot with you, we must be punished for not understanding the error of our ways but now you're saying you're willing to entertain other views on this issue. Something which is at odds with the cheeseball condescension that was on show from you only one post ago.

I'm happy to discuss anything with anyone, I don't venture down some of the avenues you seem at ease with, because I wouldn't appreciate that myself.

Look, ultimately we won't agree on this.
Essentially years ago I would have been on your side in this discussion. Years of first hand experience has changed my mind about travellers, whilst they can be extremely decent and charming in isolation there are extremely serious problems within their culture which I feel you are not alone in being understandably ignorant of, and before you say anything, that is not down solely to your nationality. It is regrettable without a doubt but the reality is not what either you or I would wish it to be.

ED E

A friend of mine has worked for many years until very recently in a state position providing traveller services. She's now moved role due to PTSD from her interactions. The only reason she's not missing teeth/similar is it'd be taboo among travellers to beat the living ****e out of a woman.


Overheal, I wont convince you as its like talking to a brick wall but lets try. As somebody not living here (right?) you won't see a true view of whats going on.
1. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/post-office-queue-jumper-punched-woman-to-the-ground-then-attacked-her-husband-court-hears-40311029.html - This is a rare article that denotes a traveller as one
2. https://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-seize-catalytic-converters-north-dublin-5410496-Apr2021/ - This article mentions nothing about travellers but I know, the fella in Spar knows, a dog on O'Connell Street knows, a rabid seagull stealing you lunch knows this was a raid on a traveller premises.
3. Currently the halting site nearest to me is having a dirty protest due to a row with the council. Local volunteers are trying to mitigate the mess but its pretty filthy. Nobody will report on it.

So any outsiders not in proximity to the wanton destruction will have a totally utopian view of what's actually going on. Liveline often talks about pensions being done in gutter scams. A white hiace might be mentioned which is code for who was at it but you'll never hear the T word. Can't be doing that.

whisky_galore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A sensible and realistic proposal...heaven forbid.

Unfortunately all the discussion are emotionally charged hard done by stories. How people "feel" overpowers everything nowadays, at the end of the day travellers have to avail of what is provided to help themselves.
No amount of forcing or cajoling by what they perceive as outsiders has worked.

They can either wallow in their own mess or improve their lot, it's up to them.
If they are happy to pull their children out of school to be the next unschooled generation. Fine - just be honest about it instead of blaming the system or the other kids in the class.

Mad_maxx

ED E wrote: »

A friend of mine has worked for many years until very recently in a state position providing traveller services. She's now moved role due to PTSD from her interactions. The only reason she's not missing teeth/similar is it'd be taboo among travellers to beat the living ****e out of a woman.


Overheal, I wont convince you as its like talking to a brick wall but lets try. As somebody not living here (right?) you won't see a true view of whats going on.
1. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/post-office-queue-jumper-punched-woman-to-the-ground-then-attacked-her-husband-court-hears-40311029.html - This is a rare article that denotes a traveller as one
2. https://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-seize-catalytic-converters-north-dublin-5410496-Apr2021/ - This article mentions nothing about travellers but I know, the fella in Spar knows, a dog on O'Connell Street knows, a rabid seagull stealing you lunch knows this was a raid on a traveller premises.
3. Currently the halting site nearest to me is having a dirty protest due to a row with the council. Local volunteers are trying to mitigate the mess but its pretty filthy. Nobody will report on it.

So any outsiders not in proximity to the wanton destruction will have a totally utopian view of what's actually going on. Liveline often talks about pensions being done in gutter scams. A white hiace might be mentioned which is code for who was at it but you'll never hear the T word. Can't be doing that.

Where did you get the idea that travellers won't beat women?

TomTomTim

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Where did you get the idea that travellers won't beat women?

There's a rule in traveller culture, where if you marry your sister off, and her new husband beats her, you can't step in and do anything about it. I heard that directly from the mouth of a traveller.

whisky_galore

TomTomTim wrote: »

There's a rule in traveller culture, where if you marry your sister off, and her new husband beats her, you can't step in and do anything about it. I heard that directly from the mouth of a traveller.

Lovely.

Mules

Damien360 wrote: »

Not employable....you are probably correct but sometimes for good reasons that is not prejudice. For comparison. I would like to see employment stats for Irish non-traveller individuals with no education past primary school. Add to that, new-irish with equally no education and get those employment stats. I don't think you would be too surprised that the sets of data would compare quite well with each other.

The education system is not for everyone. Some cannot cope with it and end up on the edges of society or employment in very poor paying jobs. But I don't think any other cohort of people have as big a non-engagement in education than the travellers. The question is why? Is it caused by attitudes within the traveller community or caused by the system. I know which one the traveller community will blame and which one every one else will blame.

A lot of it is because of being on the road and they also prepare for marriage at 16. It's their lifestyle that makes it difficult. There is also the feeling among many that mainstream education isn't part of their culture and they would lose that and become like settled people if they engaged in it. People say they aren't integrated and while that is true, most travellers don't want to be integrated.

I wouldn't expect them to integrate, that's up to them. What they could do is cut down on the anti social behaviour.

Gloomtastic!

ED E wrote: »

The only reason she's not missing teeth/similar is it'd be taboo among travellers to beat the living ****e out of a woman.

Go into any womens' refuge and you'll find traveller women/children. They will probably be the only Irish people in there (apart from the staff). If you or I beat our wives/girlfriends one night after a skinful, they'd probably go stay with a friend/family member. For some reason, Travellers shun victims so they have to go stay in a refuge.

The other residents will be non nationals who have no friends/family to rely on.

Lia_lia

Lia_lia wrote: »

Haven’t read the whole thread but the main issue is their parents/family members just don’t expect them to finish school and go off to work. Especially the girls/women.

You see, this is true, but it's only the beginning of it. People offer it as the whole truth, and then stop, like an unfinished sentence

Why is school important? Education has a transformative power, does it not? It isn't just the gathering of information, education turns a child into an adult who can cope with discipline, who seeks structure, and who creates long-term goals. The opposite of this is personal anarchy.

What we have created is a culture that sets up a sort of negative feedback-loop, where the less education travellers have, they less they want. Poorly educated parents who (probably, justifiably) felt alienated from the system will tend to be repeated in the second generation, and the next...

It's a systemic problem we have on our hands, it's not all personal responsibility. We (settled people) value the transformative power of education because we have proof of it in our own lives. It's not that we are miraculously responsible people and they are not. We should try to approach the problem as a system failure, nothing to do with personal morality or responsibility.

Mad_maxx

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You see, this is true, but it's only the beginning of it. People offer it as the whole truth, and then stop, like an unfinished sentence

Why is school important? Education has a transformative power, does it not? It isn't just the gathering of information, education turns a child into an adult who can cope with discipline, who seeks structure, and who creates long-term goals. The opposite of this is personal anarchy.

What we have created is a culture that sets up a sort of negative feedback-loop, where the less education travellers have, they less they want. Poorly educated parents who (probably, justifiably) felt alienated from the system will tend to be repeated in the second generation, and the next...

It's a systemic problem we have on our hands, it's not all personal responsibility. We (settled people) value the transformative power of education because we have proof of it in our own lives. It's not that we are miraculously responsible people and they are not. We should try to approach the problem as a system failure, nothing to do with personal morality or responsibility.

Someone is listening to President Higgins a little too much

jmreire

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You see, this is true, but it's only the beginning of it. People offer it as the whole truth, and then stop, like an unfinished sentence

Why is school important? Education has a transformative power, does it not? It isn't just the gathering of information, education turns a child into an adult who can cope with discipline, who seeks structure, and who creates long-term goals. The opposite of this is personal anarchy.

What we have created is a culture that sets up a sort of negative feedback-loop, where the less education travellers have, they less they want. Poorly educated parents who (probably, justifiably) felt alienated from the system will tend to be repeated in the second generation, and the next...

It's a systemic problem we have on our hands, it's not all personal responsibility. We (settled people) value the transformative power of education because we have proof of it in our own lives. It's not that we are miraculously responsible people and they are not. We should try to approach the problem as a system failure, nothing to do with personal morality or responsibility.

System failure??? How? It has beeen working very successfully for many years now, as hundreds of thousands of pupils can attest. We even attract many foreign students. Its there and its available, but it has to be availed of, it cannot be forced on people who are unwilling to participate.Which is the core problem when it comes to travellers. The fact that an ( unfortunately ) small nr of travellers do break out of the circle, is proof that it can be done. But the system is not the fault.

Strumms

The fact is, in Ireland, there are without jumping through any hoops, the availability to EVERY child in this state...14 fücking years of FREE school education...

Doesn’t matter if you are rich, poor, intelligent, or otherwise.

1. Junior infants
2. Senior infants
3. 1st class
4. 2nd class
5. 3rd class
6. 4th class
7. 5th class
8. 6th class
9. 1st year
10. 2nd year
11. 3rd year
12. 4th year (optional)
13. 5th year
14. 6th year

About 2500 days of education, free gratis.

About 20,000 hours roughly of FREE education.

Decisions we make in this country for our citizens need to ensure we can continue to do this for our citizens... travelers can avail of all the above, choose not to ? It’s on them.

tayto lover

Strumms wrote: »

The fact is, in Ireland, there are without jumping through any hoops, the availability to EVERY child in this state...14 fücking years of FREE school education...

Doesn’t matter if you are rich, poor, intelligent, or otherwise.

1. Junior infants
2. Senior infants
3. 1st class
4. 2nd class
5. 3rd class
6. 4th class
7. 5th class
8. 6th class
9. 1st year
10. 2nd year
11. 3rd year
12. 4th year (optional)
13. 5th year
14. 6th year

About 2500 days of education, free gratis.

About 20,000 hours roughly of FREE education.

Decisions we make in this country for our citizens need to ensure we can continue to do this for our citizens... travelers can avail of all the above, choose not to ? It’s on them.

There are also Community Training Workshops, Youthreach, PLC courses, After School courses etc etc available to them but they will only stay in them until they reach 18 and can sign on the dole, go on disability (much abused) or get married.
They are overall not interested in education or work, just money. I’ve seen it firsthand. It’s sad too as many would make great tradesmen and women but their culture actually holds the young Travellers back. That needs to be addressed first, by the Travellers themselves.

Eric Cartman

tayto lover wrote: »

There are also Community Training Workshops, Youthreach, PLC courses, After School courses etc etc available to them but they will only stay in them until they reach 18 and can sign on the dole, go on disability (much abused) or get married.
They are overall not interested in education or work, just money. I’ve seen it firsthand. It’s sad too as many would make great tradesmen and women but their culture actually holds the young Travellers back. That needs to be addressed first, by the Travellers themselves.

This is it, its the worlds most short sighted culture, unfortunatelyat this point the state has brought the horse to water , every opportunity and support available, their own community needs to step up and take some responsibility now, to stop condemning kids to a life of crime and addiction.

Strumms

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This is it, its the worlds most short sighted culture, unfortunatelyat this point the state has brought the horse to water , every opportunity and support available, their own community needs to step up and take some responsibility now, to stop condemning kids to a life of crime and addiction.

Exactly, it’s like if I won the lottery and rang lotto HQ, saying that I’m not coming in to collect my cheque for 5 million unless they book me a taxi to come get it. :eek:

The people have the opportunity, what they do with it is on them, nobody else... traveler folks want equality and fairness...education and pathways to be successful in life ? Ok, then turn the fûck up, take the opportunity, embrace it and work, like the rest of us must.

No fücking place in society for babysitting entire communities.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

System failure??? How? It has beeen working very successfully for many years now, as hundreds of thousands of pupils can attest. We even attract many foreign students. Its there and its available, but it has to be availed of, it cannot be forced on people who are unwilling to participate.Which is the core problem when it comes to travellers.

But you're confusing personal responsibility with what I'm saying is a system failure.

Clearly, when it comes to travellers, the system keeps returning errors: when we press "educate" on traveller children, we repeatedly end up with uneducated kids with a level of education that barely extends beyond simple arithmetic.

Now, the idea that the traveller community has a preponderance of wilfully atrocious parents is extremely improbable. To believe that, it necessary to believe there is something inherently degenerate about, or intrinsically wrong with travellers, and that is demonstrably false.

Something is wrong with a culture that has developed in their community. In other words, a system failure.

What does this stem from? I would appreciate if you genuinely tried to think about that, instead of reaching for the lazy answer that they are shirkers, layabouts, and criminals — things that were also, once, said about the Irish generally.

A culture has definitely sprung-up among travellers that is, at best, cynical towards education. I think that's at the heart of the problem, and if we can get away from the notion of blame and finger-pointing, we might manage to identify what's happening and propose reasonable solutions.

nullzero

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But you're confusing personal responsibility with what I'm saying is a system failure.

Clearly, when it comes to travellers, the system keeps returning errors: when we press "educate" on traveller children, we repeatedly end up with uneducated kids with a level of education that barely extends beyond simple arithmetic.

Now, the idea that the traveller community has a preponderance of wilfully atrocious parents is extremely improbable. To believe that, it necessary to believe there is something inherently degenerate about, or intrinsically wrong with travellers, and that is demonstrably false.

Something is wrong with a culture that has developed in their community. In other words, a system failure.

What does this stem from? I would appreciate if you genuinely tried to think about that, instead of reaching for the lazy answer that they are shirkers, layabouts, and criminals — things that were also, once, said about the Irish generally.

A culture has definitely sprung-up among travellers that is, at best, cynical towards education. I think that's at the heart of the problem, and if we can get away from the notion of blame and finger-pointing, we might manage to identify what's happening and propose reasonable solutions.

Are you suggesting that it is incumbent upon us as a society to solve the problems of traveller culture when they do not want us to and refuse to engage with the efforts we make?

Is this some sort of modern day hiberno-white man's burden?

nullzero

nullzero wrote: »

Are you suggesting that it is incumbent upon us as a society to solve the problems of traveller culture

I think we should leave ethics aside for the moment, because the whole point of this debate seems to be an economic one: members of the travelling community are undeniably a drain on resources. That's what the thread is about.

If we can divorce ourselves from morality and approach this simply as an economic puzzle to be solved, I think that would be surprisingly helpful.

Economic planning is all about recognising the inevitable and illogical quirks of human behaviour, and making patches wherever trouble arises. I'm just suggesting we identify patches, (like pretty drastic welfare reform) and the rest will follow.

nullzero

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think we should leave ethics aside for the moment, because the whole point of this debate seems to be an economic one: members of the travelling community are undeniably a drain on resources. That's what the thread is about.

If we can divorce ourselves from morality and approach this simply as an economic puzzle to be solved, I think that would be surprisingly helpful.

Economic planning is all about recognising the inevitable and illogical quirks of human behaviour, and making patches wherever trouble arises. I'm just suggesting we identify patches, (like pretty drastic welfare reform) and the rest will follow.

I can appreciate what you're saying but the puzzle is impossible to solve if there is no will from one side to engage.

I'd love to see travellers in full time education, making their way in our society, putting the generations of hostility behind them, but there is the basic requirement for them to want to engage. Whatever way we wish to approach this issue, it will never be solved until they take that leap. We're waiting for them, let's hope they're willing to see the value in what what society is offering them has.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

There are also Community Training Workshops, Youthreach, PLC courses, After School courses etc etc available to them but they will only stay in them until they reach 18 and can sign on the dole, go on disability (much abused) or get married.
They are overall not interested in education or work, just money. I’ve seen it firsthand. It’s sad too as many would make great tradesmen and women but their culture actually holds the young Travellers back. That needs to be addressed first, by the Travellers themselves.

All of these are fantastic. But I can see why Travellers don't see the value to all this education when at the end of it all, no one will give them a start, anyway.

And if anyone here believes that a traveller who rolls up to a job interview is on the same footing as a settled person, they're deluding themselves.

wicklowstevo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think we should leave ethics aside for the moment, because the whole point of this debate seems to be an economic one: members of the travelling community are undeniably a drain on resources. That's what the thread is about.

If we can divorce ourselves from morality and approach this simply as an economic puzzle to be solved, I think that would be surprisingly helpful.

Economic planning is all about recognising the inevitable and illogical quirks of human behaviour, and making patches wherever trouble arises. I'm just suggesting we identify patches, (like pretty drastic welfare reform) and the rest will follow.

if you really want to leave ethics at the door it would seem like more sense economically to protect the rest of the population from the endemic criminality of travellers and wait for time to solve the problem for us

but that's not going to happen now is it …..

Overheal

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Where did you get the idea that travellers won't beat women?

Does this imply settled Irish do not?

Overheal

TomTomTim wrote: »

There's a rule in traveller culture, where if you marry your sister off, and her new husband beats her, you can't step in and do anything about it. I heard that directly from the mouth of a traveller.

I had a settled family cover up for their uncle who was a pedophile. From the mouth of the family. Oh just keep him away from the young ones and don’t get anyone involved...

Should I share this story among Americans to influence their view of Irish at large? After all given what happened with the RCC it appeared to be a “rule” in settled culture.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

All of these are fantastic. But I can see why Travellers don't see the value to all this education when at the end of it all, no one will give them a start, anyway.

And if anyone here believes that a traveller who rolls up to a job interview is on the same footing as a settled person, they're deluding themselves.

So what solution would you suggest?
How would you make Travellers more acceptable to employers?
Do you not agree that they have to take ownership of their own problems I.e the problems that cause them to have a bad name?

Mike Murdock

tayto lover wrote: »

So what solution would you suggest?
How would you make Travellers more acceptable to employers?
Do you not agree that they have to take ownership of their own problems I.e the problems that cause them to have a bad name?

They should, but there is an army of people that will ignore the toxic elements of Traveller culture and blame society/systemic "racism" for their failures.

It's the bigotry of low expectations.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

So what solution would you suggest?
How would you make Travellers more acceptable to employers?
Do you not agree that they have to take ownership of their own problems I.e the problems that cause them to have a bad name?

Those are the sixty four million dollar questions, and I don't have the answers to them.

I do agree that they need to take ownership of their own problems, but I also believe nothing is ever going to be achieved if every door remains closed to them.

It will take changes of attitudes on both sides - traveller and settled.